What Is Evolution

[lucaspa]

Today at 02:20 AM Freedom777 said this in Post #27

quote
"And theologians were ecstatic that such a Designer was falsified. Because that type of Designer makes all kinds of problems for Christianity. The designs in nature show, that if they were made by your Designer, then the Designer is stupid, cruel, and suffereing from Alzheimer's. Science can stand such a Designer. Christianity cannot. Which is one reason Christians looked upon evolution as rescuing Christianity from Intelligent Design"



Ahhh but you did not take the fall of man into account.

Yes, they did.  The so-called "fall of man", Biblically, is a specific punishment for humans:  expulsion from Eden, difficulty in farming, and pain in childbirth.  That's it. The rest of Creation was unaffected and was still "good". 

What creationists have done is gone non-literal and introduced this concept to explain away everything that doesn't fit with their theory. 

But they still insist that God created animals so that they cannot vary beyond their own "kind" and that this variability is "good".  Put another way, they still insist that God designed each species.

The problem is that there are too many sadistic and stupid designs out there.  Just two examples.  The digger wasp lays its eggs in living grasshoppers and the larvae eat the living grasshopper out from the inside -- just like the alien in the movie Alien.  Very sadistic for the grasshopper.  Also, having designed primates and raccoons with an opposable thumb, God apparently forgot that when He designed the panda.  Even tho other bears have a thumb, but fused to the rest of the fingers, God didn't unfuse the existing thumb but designed a real makeshift thumb by elongating a wrist bone.  God is either stupid or suffering from Alzheimer's.

Freedom, you are going to have to do a lot better than a simple "fall of man" to deal with the problem of sadistic and stupid designs in biological organisms.

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 08:26 AM Zadok001 said this in Post #30

Freedom777:

Actually, lucaspa took everything nicely into account. The *theologians* to whom she refers, however, did not take your specific interpretation of the fall of man into account. Recognize that you're shooting your own people here - Lucaspa was stating the publically available positions of CHRISTIANS.

Second, why is your version of the Fall the 'correct' one? It seems like you're jamming an awful lot into the Bible, into a space where no such literal data is found...

"she"?  You do know which gender an open circle with an arrow coming out of it refers to, right?

Otherwise, thank you.  The creationist extrapolation of the "fall" is not Biblical.  For Biblical literalists, creationists are not very literal.

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 09:50 AM JohnR7 said this in Post #32



Why do you keep saying "evolution" when you mean the theory of evolution? Does it bother you for some reason to have to admit that it is just a theory? 

Ah, the old "just a theory" fallacy. Again.  John, I know we have gone over this at least 3 other times with you alone.  Talk about suffering from Alzheimer's!

We say "what is gravity" rather than "what is the theory of gravity" all the time.  We say "what are cells" rather than "what is the theory of cells". 

A valid theory, which evolution is, is not a "guess" like you use theory in the colloquial sense.  A valid theory is a well-supported explanation for a wide variety of facts.  When a theory is strongly supported, as evolution and gravity are, we refer to them as (provisionally) fact.

This juvenile attempt to lessen the validity and epistemological merit of evolution is no more successful now than any of the other times you have tried it.

 

[lucaspa]

Posted Today at 10:08 AM JohnR7 said this in Post #34

Well, you just told us what path your on and where you are headed. You really should be more careful about what you say.

You should be more careful how you quote and read.  This is totally out-of-context, and you know it.  False witness again, John, in a poor attempt to attack my character and try to make me seem to be attacking Christianity.  Let's look the full quote again:

"And theologians were <B>ecstatic</B> that such a Designer was falsified. Because that type of Designer makes all kinds of problems for Christianity.&nbsp; The designs in nature show, that if they were made by your Designer, then the Designer is stupid, cruel, and suffereing from Alzheimer's.&nbsp; Science can stand such a Designer. Christianity cannot."

It's not me saying God is "stupid, cruel, and suffering from Alzheimer's", but creationism.&nbsp;Which is another reason (among many) that creationism&nbsp;is non-Christian and a danger to Christianity.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 12:55 PM lucaspa said this in Post #44

You should be more careful how you quote and read.&nbsp; This is totally out-of-context, and you know it.&nbsp;

No, I don't know it at all, by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned. You should pay more attention to what your saying and less attention to what your ego is telling you. I am just giving you fair warning, that this material is going to be on the test and you will be held accountable for it.

So it's up to you and complaining about it is not going to change a thing.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 12:55 PM lucaspa said this in Post #44

It's not me saying God is "stupid, cruel, and suffering from Alzheimer's", but creationism.&nbsp;

No, it is you saying that creationism is saying such and such and so and so. But if that is your defence on the day of judgement, give it a try. My opinion is that it will shatter like glass and not work for you at all.

By your judgement of others, you will be judged. Your judgement will be measured right back to you.

Matthew 7:1-2
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "Judge not, that you be not judged. [2] For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.





&nbsp;

 

[Follower of Christ]

Today at 12:43 PM lucaspa said this in Post #41

...God is either stupid or suffering from Alzheimer's.

Freedom, you are going to have to do a lot better than a simple "fall of man" to deal with the problem of sadistic and stupid designs in biological organisms.

I realize that the only reason you probably arent banned fron this Christian website altogether is this particular forum is, sadly enough, welcoming blasphemous persons such as yourself.

You can yell ''out of context'' if you want to try to dodge the truth of your words, but those of us that AREchristians here see through you easily.

You know what a ''white-washed wall'' is.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 12:51 PM lucaspa said this in Post #43

Ah, the old "just a theory" fallacy. Again.&nbsp; John, I know we have gone over this at least 3 other times with you alone.&nbsp; Talk about suffering from Alzheimer's!

We say "what is gravity" rather than "what is the theory of gravity" all the time.&nbsp; We say "what are cells" rather than "what is the theory of cells".&nbsp;&nbsp;

The word gravity does not have much use out side of the theory. The word evolve and evolution has a lot of usage outside of the theory of evolution. My example of how transportation and the wheel has evolved has nothing to do with natural selection and the theory of evolution. Not in a direct way anyways.

As far as Alzheimer's, you sure do seem to be worried about this. First you accuse God and now me. But if you want to know my medical history, my dad and grandfather had strokes starting when they were about 80. This is different from Alzheimer's disease. What is your family medical histroy in this regards?

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 01:31 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #47

I realize that the only reason you probably arent banned fron this Christian website altogether is this particular forum is, sadly enough, welcoming blasphemous persons such as yourself.&nbsp;

If they banned him, they would most likely ban me also. Lucaspa and I both take a pretty stong stand for what we believe. Although I will be glad to give him the honor of being more hard headed than I am.

Paul's personality did not change when he became a Christian, he just began to fight for God, instead of against God.

Anyone that is not saved in on the road to blasphemy. This forum is open to saved and unsaved people. He did get banned from some of the christian only forums on here.




&nbsp;

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 12:46 PM lucaspa said this in Post #42



"she"?&nbsp; You do know which gender an open circle with an arrow coming out of it refers to, right?&nbsp;

You remind me of that Ben Casey show back in the 60's that use to start out with all those symbols: man, women, life, death, infinity. I always wondered about that infinity one.

 

[Follower of Christ]

Today at 01:48 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #49



If they banned him, they would most likely ban me also. Lucaspa and I both take a pretty stong stand for what we believe. Although I will be glad to give him the honor of being more hard headed than I am.

Paul's personality did not change when he became a Christian, he just began to fight for God, instead of against God.

Anyone that is not saved in on the road to blasphemy. This forum is open to saved and unsaved people. He did get banned from some of the christian only forums on here.

&nbsp;

I thought I had seen where his posts were being taken out of the christians only areas. I believe he complianed about it.

I understand allowing the unbeliever in.

But when I was debating with Dennis Mckinsey's crew thru email, I did not tolerate blssphemy.
if they want to debate fine.
But if we Christians are expected to look at them blaspheming, then I say ban the ones not able to control their tongues towards our God.
At least temporarily til they learn NOT to blaspheme.


''...of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan, that they may be taught not to blaspheme. ''
(1 Timothy 1:20 LITV)

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 01:23 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #45

You should be more careful how you quote and read.&nbsp; This is totally out-of-context, and you know it.

No, I don't know it at all, by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned. ... I am just giving you fair warning, that this material is going to be on the test and you will be held accountable for it.

I don't think ignorance of false witness is going to be a defense, when the in-context was right in front of you.&nbsp; I think you are hoping God will split hairs like you do, but the Bible doesn't give any support to that.&nbsp; Good luck.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 02:24 PM lucaspa said this in Post #52



I don't think ignorance of false witness is going to be a defense, when the in-context was right in front of you.&nbsp;&nbsp;

Ignorance will not be a defence. Even if no one were to tell you the truth you&nbsp;would still be held accountable for it. How much more will God hold you accountable now that you know the truth?

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 02:49 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #53
Ignorance will not be a defence.

Then, John, it looks like you are screwed on Judgement Day. Sorry.

Even if no one were to tell you the truth you&nbsp;would still be held accountable for it. How much more will God hold you accountable now that you know the truth?

The truth that creationism is heresy? That creationism demeans God by making Him be sadistic, stupid, and suffering from Alzheimer's?&nbsp; Or the truth of the "Appearance of Age" argument that makes God out to be a liar?&nbsp;

How about the truth that YECers advocated the Gnostic and Marcionist heresies in the 1982 Arkansas trial? How can any of these truths hurt me?

The truth is that God did not create by creationism. Since God shouts that both in the Bible and His Creation, I think you are going to be in huge trouble for not listening.&nbsp; But God is also supposed to be merciful. For your sake, let's hope so.

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 01:31 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #47

I realize that the only reason you probably arent banned fron this Christian website altogether is this particular forum is, sadly enough, welcoming blasphemous persons such as yourself.

You can yell ''out of context'' if you want to try to dodge the truth of your words, but those of us that AREchristians here see through you easily.&nbsp;

The truth of my words is that, if God designed each organism separately, then the only possible conclusion is that God is sadistic, stupid, and suffering from Alzheimer's.&nbsp; Taking my words out of context is simply making you a false witness.

God is none of those.&nbsp; Despite creationist attempts to make Him so.&nbsp; Which is why Christian theologians realized the trap that special creation put them into and were so eager to embrace evolution. Rather than deny God, evolution by natural selection got God out of a very bad box that creationists had put Him into.

That you so eagerly want to make this about me and not about Design simply shows how poor your position is.&nbsp; As long as you point to just a few designs, then you can deceive yourself about how "perfect" the Designer is.&nbsp; As soon as you look at all designs in nature, however, you realize what a ridiculous position that is.

You won't even address the two examples I gave you: the digger wasp and the Panda's thumb.

Let me give you another example where creationism falsely gets God into trouble.

Rabbits eat plants.&nbsp; They don't have the enzyme to break down cellulose -- cellulase -- themselves. Instead, the bacteria in their large intestine have the enzyme.&nbsp; This means that rabbits have to eat their own feces in order to 1) recover nutrients and 2) recover the bacteria.&nbsp; So, by creationism, God makes rabbits eat their own feces (called coprophagy).&nbsp; After all, an omnipotent God could have made the rabbit's pancreas make cellulase.&nbsp; So it was&nbsp; deliberate choice to put the enzyme in bacteria that only live in the large intestine.&nbsp; Now, making rabbits be copraphagous is sadistic in anyone's book.&nbsp; Yet that is just what creationists do.

Evolution, OTOH, gets God off this charge by having natural selection be the secondary cause by which God designs. Rabbits are designed by natural selection, not God directly.&nbsp; So now God is no longer directly responsible.

Creationism is the worst danger Christianity has ever faced, IMO.&nbsp; Attacking me personally won't change that.

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 02:02 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #51



I thought I had seen where his posts were being taken out of the christians only areas. I believe he complianed about it.

I understand allowing the unbeliever in.

But when I was debating with Dennis Mckinsey's crew thru email, I did not tolerate blssphemy.
if they want to debate fine.
But if we Christians are expected to look at them blaspheming, then I say ban the ones not able to control their tongues towards our God.

You don't get it, do you, FoC?&nbsp; The blasphemy is on the part of creationists.&nbsp; It's just that you don't want to admit it.

Actually, I have been restored to the Christian only areas, but have not exercised the option due to lack of time.

I know creationists look on themselves as model Christians and the "good guys".&nbsp; It is way past time for that to be challenged.&nbsp; Creationists are not the good guys.&nbsp; Creationism is not Biblical in many of its areas, is heresy, adopts atheistic principles, and sets up Christianity to be wongly destroyed.&nbsp; Have you ever wondered why atheists insist that the Bible must be interpreted literally? Because it is the only interpretation that can be falsified!!

So why do you do that?&nbsp; I have hypothesized that creationists are really undercover atheists.&nbsp; Christianity can't be destroyed by atheism, but if Christianity is creationism, then Christianity is toast.&nbsp; So why are you so eager to destroy Christianity, FoC?

 

[Follower of Christ]

Why do you assume God needs to be defended for creating anything the way He desires?

Creationists arent whining about it, we accept the things the way God created them.
We also accept the the entire creation is suffering because of our Sin.

Oh but you cant let it be sin that caused the problem or that would mean YOU are a sinner.

I have no need if attacking you, just exposing you as my most precious treasure, the Word of the Living God, says to do.

The worst danger Christianity has is those such as yourself try to deny the word of God as such and spread your New Age Spirituality in the name of Christ.


I have spent almost 20 years watching as your religion has grown.

Why dont you come clean and Give us the complete rundown of exactly what you believe concerning God, Jesus (the Biblical one, not yours) and the Holy scritures.

If your faith is so pure, you should not have any trouble letting everyone see exactly what you believe.

 

[Cantuar]

Why do you keep saying "evolution" when you mean the theory of evolution? Does it bother you for some reason to have to admit that it is just a theory?

....people unclear on the concept.....

The theory of evolution by variation and selection explains the fact of evolution (descent with modification). In science, there's no such thing as ONLY a theory, since science is about explanations and theories are those explanations. You already know that, don't you? You're just trotting out the "but it's ONLY a theory!" stuff in case some lurker might decide to deconvert based on the notion that evolution is rather more than an atheist wild guess, right? As long as you know what evolution is and what theories are but continue to trot out the "but it's ONLY a theory" nonsense, you really shouldn't get all surprised and indignant when people respond with accusations of bearing false witness.

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 03:49 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #57

Why do you assume God needs to be defended for creating anything the way He desires?

Why do you attack God because He created by evoluton?

Creationists arent whining about it, we accept the things the way God created them.

If you did that, you would be theistic evolutionists.&nbsp; Instead, you are telling God how He had to create.&nbsp; The rest of us are letting God tell us, through His Creation, how He created.

We also accept the the entire creation is suffering because of our Sin.

Then you aren't taking a literal reading of the Bible.&nbsp; You are making up your own theology again and not listening even to the Bible.

Oh but you cant let it be sin that caused the problem or that would mean YOU are a sinner.

Of course I am a sinner!&nbsp; Jesus made absolutely sure of that when he replaced deeds with thoughts as the criteria.&nbsp; It is (barely) possible to adhere to all the laws with your outward behavior, but impossible to avoid adultery when even thinking about a woman is adultery.

BTW, did it ever occur to you that evolution also means that it is impossible to avoid sin?&nbsp; What drives natural selection? Selfishness.&nbsp; We are all the product of our selfish genes.

I have no need if attacking you, just exposing you as my most precious treasure, the Word of the Living God, says to do.

Well, then you know why I have to expose you, too. Same reason.

The worst danger Christianity has is those such as yourself try to deny the word of God as such and spread your New Age Spirituality in the name of Christ.

Who's denying the "word of God"?&nbsp; Your apostasy is showing again.&nbsp;&nbsp;You equate yourself to the "word of God".&nbsp; I'm just disagreeing with you, not the word of God.&nbsp; You can't see that because you have equated yourself with God.&nbsp;

I have spent almost 20 years watching as your religion has grown.

My religion? What 'religion' is that?&nbsp; You seem so certain what my beliefs are -- "your New Age Spirituality", "your religion", etc. So why do you have to ask:

Why dont you come clean and Give us the complete rundown of exactly what you believe concerning God, Jesus (the Biblical one, not yours) and the Holy scritures.

You tell me&nbsp;you know what my beliefs are, then ask me about them? I'm supposed to think that is an honest question?

BTW, what do you think "my Jesus" is?&nbsp;

If your faith is so pure, you should not have any trouble letting everyone see exactly what you believe.

I'm not. It's right out there for you to look at.&nbsp; You simply won't see it because you don't want to acknowledge that any of what I am saying is Christian.

UNITED PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH IN THE U.S.A. (1982)


"Affirms that, despite efforts to establish "creationism" or "creation-science" as a valid science, it is teaching based upon a particular religious dogma as agreed by the court (<I>McLean vs Arkansas Board of Education</I>); Affirms that, the imposition of a fundamentalist viewpoint about the interpretation of Biblical literature -- where every word is taken with uniform literalness and becomes an absolute authority on all matters, whether moral, religious, political, historical or scientific -- is in conflict with the perspective on Biblical interpretation characteristically maintained by Biblical scholars and theological schools in the mainstream of Protestantism, Roman Catholicism and Judaism. Such scholars find that the scientific theory of evolution does not conflict with their interpretation of the origins of life found in Biblical literature. "

 

[lucaspa]

See if this is what I have been saying all along, in several posts on several threads:

"So we may well ask, do the school children of Kansas and other states need to be spared exposure to the well-founded scientific theory of evolution? That theory is not inconsistent with the religious doctrine of creation. It is not about whether God created the world, but about how. [emphases mine, and this is what I have been saying in almost the exact words]

Those who are prepared to read the Bible through the eyes of faith may be all the more stirred by the words, "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." And, in contemplation of their own humanity, by the words of the eighth Psalm: "When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars that you have established; what are human beings that you are mindful of them, mortals that you care for them? Yet you have made them a little lower than God, and crowned them with glory and honor."

# # #

*Wogaman, pastor of Foundry United Methodist Church in Washington, is a seminary professor of Christian ethics and author. He is a clergy member of the Baltimore-Washington Annual (regional) Conference."