What is evil?

[PaladinValer]

I don't feel that evil is the absence of good or the absence of God.

So God is the source of evil? If not that, then who is the source of evil? The Devil? If so, then the Devil has power in and of himself and we have dualism, however lopsided. Both are unacceptable theologies.

If God were totally absent there would be nothing here for all things proceed from Him. Evil IS something and we recognize it when we see it or sense it. We can't sense or see nothing.

Explain darkness then, which is the absence of light.

I see evil that exists in an operative--a perversion,distortion,inversion of what God created things to be. The most pointed examples in man where a psychological term suffices for me--

malignant narcissism.

That's a Non-Sequitur; you deny this earlier yet now embrace it?

 

[bricklayer]

I agree with everything you said, except I'm not quite sure about evil as a literary tactic...interesting concept, though.

But the question is still unanswered; how is a mere privation able to induce a dynamic like moral evil?

Evil is not induced. God is what He is and is not what He is not. Evil is not caused; it is revealed. Evil does not have a cause. However, the revelation of good and evil have the same efficient cause.

Evil is only moral to us; for that matter, good is only moral to us. Moral evil or moral good are ontological relative positions to good or evil. It's how "close or far" a thing is to good or evil. Moral is a relative term. Moral evil is relative evil. Moral good is relative good. Even as important as morality is, it can be no better than its benchmark. It's all about what a thing is "measured up to".

 

[bricklayer]

Evil is not a created thing. Evil is what God is not, nothing more or less.
God chose to reveal both good and evil (what He is and what He is not) for a very good purpose. He did it because a thing is described just as much by what it is not as it is by what it is. The revelation of evil serves the very good purpose of revealing what God is not. God's creation is God's description of God's glory.
The revelation of evil reveals what God is not. Sin reveals evil, and the law reveals sin.

Evil is not caused by God; it is revealed by Him.
Good is not caused by God; it is revealed by Him.
God is not the cause of what He is not anymore than He is the cause of what He is. God is uncaused.

 

[iambren]

This is an age-old question that your post leads to and one that Christians have struggled with for centuries--did God create evil? I face the question head on and affirm that there is no previous "cause" before God. Evil exists,therefore evil proceeded from Him. I see no other explanation that could be put forth. We might not understand it but there it is.

 

[PaladinValer]

This is an age-old question that your post leads to and one that Christians have struggled with for centuries--did God create evil? I face the question head on and affirm that there is no previous "cause" before God. Evil exists,therefore evil proceeded from Him. I see no other explanation that could be put forth. We might not understand it but there it is.

Or, we can avoid Zoroastrian theology by simply accepting that evil is a lack of goodness or its corruption.

That's the alternative, and it is the right, historic, orthodox theology. All dualism is Manicheanism and to suggest God is the source of evil is to accept a specific part of Gnostic theology; that He is nothing more than a demiurge. As I said before, both of these are unacceptable theologies.

 

[bricklayer]

This is an age-old question that your post leads to and one that Christians have struggled with for centuries--did God create evil? I face the question head on and affirm that there is no previous "cause" before God. Evil exists,therefore evil proceeded from Him. I see no other explanation that could be put forth. We might not understand it but there it is.

Good and evil are not created; they're revealed. Good is what God is. Evil is what God is not. The revelation of evil serves the very good purpose of revealing what God is not. Sin reveals evil. The law reveals sin. Salvation reveals grace, and grace reveals the true extent of good.

 

[iambren]

"The revelation of evil serves the very good purpose of revealing what God is not. God's creation is God's description of God's glory.
The revelation of evil reveals what God is not. Sin reveals evil, and the law reveals sin."

I liked this. God created evil as a textbook,a guide,a pointer to reveal who He is. I can live with that.

 

[Cuddles333]

My belief as to what objective good is, is 'lighted' harmony. Be it in a marriage relationship, family, or at one's employment. By 'lighted' I mean transparent, pure openness. A scripture probably explains it better: "The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are pure, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are bad (trained to exploit any opportunity to your advantage), your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that you think that is in you, is actually darkness, how great is that darkness! (Mt. 6:22-23)

It was an old belief of the Jews that the dark motives of a person affected their physical body. I don't know if they greeted such a person with a kiss on the cheek (maybe an air-kiss) but if they practiced handshakes....it could have gotten interesting.


My belief as to what objective evil is, is darkened harmony/dis-harmony. It is reality that dark 'harmony' exists in a marriage, family, and one's employment. However, it is an 'extracted' harmony. Happiness is near impossible to keep in this 'dark' turning wheel of harmony. Inevitably, this 'harmony' will fall into dis-harmony.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

I don't take issue with your definitions; using truth and falsity as ontological raw materials within being I can reach essentially the same conclusions you do.

Evil is only moral to us; for that matter, good is only moral to us. Moral evil or moral good are ontological relative positions to good or evil.

Morality is the word we use to define the tension and resistance experienced between truth and falsity in the soul. Christianity has long held to dualism because imo there are real opposite forces in the fabric of our being. The force of morality felt in the mind is proportional to the admixture of truth and falsity in human spirit and mind. Privation is wholly unable to create the pressure of morality in intellect. Continual diminishing of good [degrees of privation] admits no room to experiencing the pressure we call morality, only continual--albeit quantitatively decreasing--good.

Even as important as morality is, it can be no better than its benchmark. It's all about what a thing is "measured up to".

Even when restored to a wholly true [perfect] condition, we still won't 'measure up' to God, though we will finally be one (Jn 17:18-22) with him qualitatively, if not quantitatively.

Evil is not caused; it is revealed.

Well, the problem for me is that you're continually speaking in analogies. They're thought-provoking analogies, for sure, but as interesting as they are, they don't work for me with any sort of sufficiency for reasons already stated. Also, as William James might put it, these analogies have little 'cash value'. I'd imagine the woman raped, the child molested, the innocent murdered, the traveler robbed would find little or no comfort in the notion that evil isn't a real thing, it's only a yardstick, only some vague defect or deficiency revealed in the perpetrator.

 

[bricklayer]

"The revelation of evil serves the very good purpose of revealing what God is not. God's creation is God's description of God's glory.
The revelation of evil reveals what God is not. Sin reveals evil, and the law reveals sin."

I liked this. God created evil as a textbook,a guide,a pointer to reveal who He is. I can live with that.

Good and evil are not created; they are revealed.
Good is what God is.
Evil is what God is not.
God has chosen to reveal both good and evil, what He is and what He isn't.

Sin reveals evil.
The law reveals sin.
Salvation reveals grace.
Grace reveals the true extent of good.

 

[bricklayer]

Well, the problem for me is that you're continually speaking in analogies. They're thought-provoking analogies, for sure, but as interesting as they are, they don't work for me with any sort of sufficiency for reasons already stated. Also, as William James might put it, these analogies have little 'cash value'. I'd imagine the woman raped, the child molested, the innocent murdered, the traveler robbed would find little or no comfort in the notion that evil isn't a real thing, it's only a yardstick, only some vague defect or deficiency revealed in the perpetrator.

Evil is a real thing; however, it is not a created thing. Good and evil are not created; they are revealed.
Evil is very real; it is every bit as real as is good.

Of course I speak analogously of God. Language is a created thing. Created things can, at best, be analogous to uncreated things.
Why is you think Jesus spoke in parables?

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

Evil is a real thing; however, it is not a created thing. Good and evil are not created; they are revealed.

How then does a "real" thing come into being by being "revealed"? I don't understand. I believe all goods are created causally by truth. A man who adheres to and operates from a primarily truth-bearing mind builds a quality house, which creates any number of goods for its owners: safety, protection, comfort, etc. Another man who gives in to temptation from the fragmented falsity of his mind lacks this integrity; he builds a house hastily, with multiple defects so as to maximize his profit, falsifying the previously mentioned goods.

Another man embraces truth in his mind and pities a poor child. The man educates, counsels and nurtures the child resulting in numerous incorporeal goods for her; moral integrity, honesty, high work ethic, compassion for others, etc. which she would have possessed much less of if left to her poverty. Yet another man thirsts after those dark things a highly falsified mind creates appetites for: robbery, cheating, antisocial behaviors, etc.

Goods and evils are both created by complex interactions between truth and falsity, which are inert qualities woven into creation until brought to life in the complex consciousness of "living information" (the human mind or soul). We falsify our own spirits with wrong choices as well as by the reception and adoption of falsification from outside sources, as in the angry father from whom the son learns to abuse and act narcissistically. In either case, goods and evils are only effects springing from (or created by) tensions and resistances between the two inner qualities.

I can live with good and evil being revealed, same with privation. But revelation via observed attributes is only a description of de facto reality. It doesn't explain the mechanics of good or evil.

Why is this wrong?

 

[bbyrd009]

I created evil God
Isa 45:7

 

[bricklayer]

Good is what God is; evil is what God is not.
The revelation of evil reveals what God is not.
Sin reveals evil, and the law reveals sin.
Salvation from the wages of sin reveals grace.
Grace reveals the true extent of the good that God is.

 

[bricklayer]

Creation is an act of grace; it is an unmerited favor.
A non-existent creation cannot merit its own creation.
Any form of being is superior to non-being.

It is by grace that we have been created, and this is not from our selves. It is a gift so that no one should boast. We are God's handiwork.
We have been created to do works that He has prepared in advance for us.

God does not have a creature centered purpose for His creation. God's creation has a God centered purpose.
Creation is God's revelation of God's glory. Creation is God's description of God's glory.
Anything, even God's glory, is described just as much by what it is not as it is by what it is.

The revelation of evil is concomitant and commensurate to the revelation of good. That is why God has chosen to reveal both the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[bricklayer]

1+1=2 is not particularly useful. 1+1= exclusively 2 is very useful.

Knowing what a thing is not is just as important as knowing what a thing is.

We approach ontological certainty through a process wherein doubt is removed by testing.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

Creation is an act of grace; it is an unmerited favor.
A non-existent creation cannot merit its own creation.
Any form of being is superior to non-being.

It is by grace that we have been created, and this is not from our selves. It is a gift so that no one should boast. We are God's handiwork.
We have been created to do works that He has prepared in advance for us.

God does not have a creature centered purpose for His creation. God's creation has a God centered purpose.
Creation is God's revelation of God's glory. Creation is God's description of God's glory.
Anything, even God's glory, is described just as much by what it is not as it is by what it is.

The revelation of evil is concomitant and commensurate to the revelation of good. That is why God has chosen to reveal both the knowledge of good and evil.

This is turning into a mantra my friend. You're difficult to have a discussion with you know. All the same, all the best.....

 

[bricklayer]

This is turning into a mantra my friend. You're difficult to have a discussion with you know. All the same, all the best.....

If I could say it any better, I would say it differently. At this point, all I can do now is repeat myself.

I thank you very much for your part in getting me this far. That "mantra" has taken a place among my most treasured understandings.