• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

What is ethics?

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟35,688.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
I hope you know I was joking. Okay, maybe that was my work humor.

I didn't know that. :D

Not if the good is conceived in such a sense where altruism toward another person involves (both creates and is a symptom of) virtuous character. Not sure on the relation to virtue ethics, but along the lines of Camus, doing the right thing can be attributed to beauty: I help others because it is the beautiful thing to do (okay, that actually does sound pretty Aristotelean). To be selfless brings the satisfaction of creating the other person in a beautiful way.

Altruism isn't really my concern so much as things like sympathy and empathy with the suffering and violation of others. I can see why a virtue ethicist would be charitable, but I wonder if they would disregard the suffering of others in the name of 'virtue'. eg: As long as you can justify yourself being virtuous, you don't have to take the pain and choice of others seriously.

Now think of the alternatives: utilitarianism can perhaps be conceived of as Aristotle without virtue ethics, in that it's about maximizing happiness (which for Aristotle is related to virtuous character) without a concern for the character of the ethical person. So now we have deontology. What your position would mean is being ethical and being unhappy. Why would someone choose to act in any pattern of any way that results in their unhappiness? "Because it's the right thing to do" (duty). To me that doesn't stop there; I do the right thing not only because it's "just" the right thing to do, but because the action has a certain beauty to it, even a sort of intuitive appeal to it -- that, after all, is fitting with Aristotle's teleological view associated with virtue: virtue is excellence in the sense that it's the "end" or "goal" of whatever you're applying virtue to. Aristotle would say that any action which encapsulates this "end" or "goal" or telos is beautiful.

Morality being beautiful isn't unique to virtue ethics.

I've got to push this further. Aristotle would hold a person to be of such a virtuous character where altruistic acts in a sense benefit the person committing them -- because this person sees the beauty in the altruistic act he is committing. This beauty coincides with what makes something right, therefore to deontologists what determines our duty; except the deontologists don't consider beauty as part of the equation. Perhaps the dividing difference here with a deontologist and virtue ethicist for any given action is the deontologist would say "duty for the sake of duty," whereas the virtue ethicist would say "not so much duty as a sense of beauty: this action is the better one because it is more virtuous or excellent one, which is a beautiful thing."

I consider the lack of mentioning others quite sad. As long as you are an excellent person, to hell with everyone else.

The problem with torture is that it represents unvirtuous character -- character that isn't "mature" or at the telos of its kind. It so happens that choosing the beautiful or right or virtuous thing also makes the self beautiful or right or virtuous. In a full understanding of virtue ethics, doing the good or virtuous thing is inextricably related to being a good or virtuous person (in specific instances). It's not just about what makes the person happy (which can be a version of consequentialism), or about what is right/duty (which can be a version of deontology); in the virtuous or good ethical choice in any situation, being happy is tied up with doing the right thing: the happiness of perceiving a beautiful action which is also the best action (given that the action fits the telos).

That is such a weak and lacking condemnation of torture. It's bad because it makes the victimizer a bad person? Because the victimizer might feel a little bad about themselves (but might not)? Really? Do you have nothing stronger to say about torture other than how the torturer feels about him/herself?

What about the victim? You don't think the suffering inflicted on the victim is important and absolutely wrong? As I said, it seems such self-centred ethics makes people apathetic towards the victim.

How are you not morally troubled by the suffering? How is that not the problem?

See above. I think with the consequentialist, happiness is considered too atomically -- seen for each situation without considering the continuity of the character of the self which transcends different situations. With deontology, happiness is only at best coincidental with what is right or should be dutifully done.

I don't know what you mean by saying happiness is atomical.

Character doesn't matter as much as action and their consequences. The important thing is doing the right thing, not being able to pat yourself on the back for being good.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Received

True love waits in haunted attics
Mar 21, 2002
12,817
774
42
Visit site
✟53,594.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I didn't know that. :D

I don't think God would if I told him. ;)

Altruism isn't really my concern so much as things like sympathy and empathy with the suffering and violation of others. I can see why a virtue ethicist would be charitable, but I wonder if they would disregard the suffering of others in the name of 'virtue'. eg: As long as you can justify yourself being virtuous, you don't have to take the pain and choice of others seriously.

I don't think it's possible to be a truly virtuous (pervasively virtuous) person and be able to divide what's good for you from what's good for other people, including empathy.

Morality being beautiful isn't unique to virtue ethics.

But VE is the only theory that holds beauty as integral, even motivational, to being a good or ethical person.

I consider the lack of mentioning others quite sad. As long as you are an excellent person, to hell with everyone else.

I just don't see this as a part of a virtuous person's character. A virtuous person is going to value how other people are affected by things, because considering the betterment of other people is a possible situation to will the good for them, the intuitive sense of this goodness for them being beauty.

That is such a weak and lacking condemnation of torture. It's bad because it makes the victimizer a bad person? Because the victimizer might feel a little bad about themselves (but might not)? Really? Do you have nothing stronger to say about torture other than how the torturer feels about him/herself?

What about the victim? You don't think the suffering inflicted on the victim is important and absolutely wrong? As I said, it seems such self-centred ethics makes people apathetic towards the victim.

Easy now.

What is the alternative to what you mention? That the torturer should be disciplined by the law? Keep in mind that ethics doesn't overlap with legality here, the latter which minimizes harm in society. If we're looking at the torturer and we're not talking about coercing him legally (if we can imagine meeting him in the middle of nowhere and he has no chance of getting caught), then how else are we to speak of him ethically? That his actions cause less happiness to the victim (consequentialism)? No, that doesn't work. That he has a duty not to do bad things? No, that obviously doesn't work.

The only way you have any hope for the possibility of appealing to anyone, if we keep the punishment of the law off the table (which should be considered in your example, I think), we have to appeal to how the character of the unvirtuous person, here the torturer, can be made better for not only others but also himself. He has to learn that 1) he has no clear idea of what the good is, and 2) he doesn't realize that following the good makes his character good, which brings with it happiness as flourishing.

How else do people "come around" to doing good? I'll be darned if it's because of duty, and only in stretches because of consequences: Nietzsche called utilitarianism a "pig's philosophy," saying we only know what's good for us (in an external sense) "two or three paces" down the road. And you can get into possibly dangerous ground if a person is purely Kantian and does everything for duty, given that his heart isn't with the actions he has, making it possible that he'll have a rotten character despite his ability to follow duty. (To me, deontology always ran the risk of legalism in the mode of the scribes and pharisees, who did the "right actions" of the law but never developed a right heart or character.) A person comes around to being good by realizing the value of the good, and how being a person who does good or virtuous things consistently is a better person as well as a better person to other people. Otherwise we only have empty duty, which could potentially lead to blandness of character, or the superficiality of happiness as what is pleasing consequentially.

I don't know what you mean by saying happiness is atomical.

Character doesn't matter as much as action and their consequences. The important thing is doing the right thing, not being able to pat yourself on the back for being good.

By atomically I mean that happiness is considered in discrete, even quantitative, units for individual situations, rather than looking at the character of the self, which is aggregately "build up" or "town down" by the virtuous or unvirtuous choices he makes in these specific and multifarious situations.

And no really virtuous person is going to be as crude as pat himself on the back. For me, being virtuous is its own reward, given that it involves engaging with the good, which involves a type of participation with beauty. The rewards that go with virtue here include instances of the good where other people are benefited. Therefore, being virtuous involves instances of helping other people and these instances are their own reward. What psychologically "makes it" rewarding is the sense of beauty associated with virtuous action.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Received

True love waits in haunted attics
Mar 21, 2002
12,817
774
42
Visit site
✟53,594.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, that's right. My personal conclusion is to associate beauty with proportionality of character. What is beautiful is harmoniously proportional in the fulfillment of its function. (One might think of "form follows function".) What is harmoniously proportional in the fulfillment of its function is excellent. The Golden Mean is about proportionality, performing a task in its exact measure, and will appear beautiful, at least to reasonably wise persons.

That sounds like a very Aristotelean answer. I don't know what it is about anything that makes it beautiful, whether sensately or with character. Maybe there's something about seeing the ideal of something in front of you that itself constitutes beauty; that is, beauty is perceiving the good fleshed out before you. Saying, as I did, that beauty is that which is valued for its own sake doesn't really specify what it is about the things that *makes it* valued for its own sake.

I also appreciate that emphasis is placed on the actor across a lifetime, not just analytically on the action in the moment. The retains the wholeness of the person in ethical thought, instead of trying to break things down into tiny pieces, which can miss the forest for the trees.

Absolutely, and thinking otherwise seems dangerous, not only because it could lead to a devaluing of the self (and lord knows we still have enough postmodernists around here for this problem), but also because doing things for the sake or duty or happiness as pleasure could really result in pretty okay or bad human beings, the problem here being that these forms of ethics don't have any focus on the character as a whole across time, as you say.
 
Upvote 0

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟35,688.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
I don't think it's possible to be a truly virtuous (pervasively virtuous) person and be able to divide what's good for you from what's good for other people, including empathy.

Except I see alot of talk about the good of the actor, and not much talk about the potential victim and their harm.

I suppose, in your terms, I want more talk of compassion, empathy, and sympathy as virtues, rather than talk about the loss of beauty and happiness of the victimizer.

But VE is the only theory that holds beauty as integral, even motivational, to being a good or ethical person.

And I don't know if that is good to talk about it so much. I have no problem with beauty being given as a reason to be moral though.

I just don't see this as a part of a virtuous person's character. A virtuous person is going to value how other people are affected by things, because considering the betterment of other people is a possible situation to will the good for them, the intuitive sense of this goodness for them being beauty.

I suppose I would hope that virtues like compassion and empathy would be considered highly important, and wouldn't be overridden by a non-considerate virtue (like courage or piety). ie: I fear people being used merely as a means to personal greatness based on non-considerate virtues.

Easy now.

What is the alternative to what you mention? That the torturer should be disciplined by the law? Keep in mind that ethics doesn't overlap with legality here, the latter which minimizes harm in society. If we're looking at the torturer and we're not talking about coercing him legally (if we can imagine meeting him in the middle of nowhere and he has no chance of getting caught), then how else are we to speak of him ethically? That his actions cause less happiness to the victim (consequentialism)? No, that doesn't work. That he has a duty not to do bad things? No, that obviously doesn't work.

There should be greater condemnation of torture as terribly wrong. The consequentialist response isn't necessary the weak condemnation of the victim being less happy. My condemnation would be that torture is generally absolutely vile and evil because it completely violates a person over what should be solely their choice.

I was asking what was wrong with torture, not how to convince the torturer. Talk of the beauty and happiness of morality could be useful, but the torturer might think they are already acting in a moral way. In that case you have to convince them why what they are doing is wrong.

The only way you have any hope for the possibility of appealing to anyone, if we keep the punishment of the law off the table (which should be considered in your example, I think), we have to appeal to how the character of the unvirtuous person, here the torturer, can be made better for not only others but also himself. He has to learn that 1) he has no clear idea of what the good is, and 2) he doesn't realize that following the good makes his character good, which brings with it happiness as flourishing.

If they think they are being good already I'm not sure they would find this convincing. If you thought I was doing something wrong (but I thought it was right) and you told me that what I was doing was making me unbeautiful and unhappy, my reply would probably be something like "I don't care... I care about doing the right thing". I would consider such talk of personal happiness and beauty to be superficial compared to my concern about doing good.

If you tried to explain why my action was wrong (considering others), I would more likely listen.

Do you see what I mean?

How else do people "come around" to doing good? I'll be darned if it's because of duty, and only in stretches because of consequences:

I think most people want to be decent, they just get it wrong. I do think pointing out how something does harm, or doesn't do harm, can change someone's morals.

Nietzsche called utilitarianism a "pig's philosophy," saying we only know what's good for us (in an external sense) "two or three paces" down the road.

Pigs don't have philosophies. Sure, we aren't omniscient... I don't think that is a good argument against trying to do good as best we can with out limited information.

And you can get into possibly dangerous ground if a person is purely Kantian and does everything for duty, given that his heart isn't with the actions he has, making it possible that he'll have a rotten character despite his ability to follow duty. (To me, deontology always ran the risk of legalism in the mode of the scribes and pharisees, who did the "right actions" of the law but never developed a right heart or character.) A person comes around to being good by realizing the value of the good, and how being a person who does good or virtuous things consistently is a better person as well as a better person to other people. Otherwise we only have empty duty, which could potentially lead to blandness of character, or the superficiality of happiness as what is pleasing consequentially.

Well I sort of agree, but I'm not arguing against people realising that being moral can be good for you. I agree with that and would make those points myself at times. My concern is with what is moral.

By atomically I mean that happiness is considered in discrete, even quantitative, units for individual situations, rather than looking at the character of the self, which is aggregately "build up" or "town down" by the virtuous or unvirtuous choices he makes in these specific and multifarious situations.

I don't know. I might be considered consequentialist, but I can say that living a moral life in general is good for happiness.

And no really virtuous person is going to be as crude as pat himself on the back. For me, being virtuous is its own reward, given that it involves engaging with the good, which involves a type of participation with beauty. The rewards that go with virtue here include instances of the good where other people are benefited. Therefore, being virtuous involves instances of helping other people and these instances are their own reward. What psychologically "makes it" rewarding is the sense of beauty associated with virtuous action.

I don't think I disagree. I think I've been agreeing that being good can be rewarding.

I hope you don't mind me giving my opinion. :)
 
Upvote 0

brightlights

A sinner
Jul 31, 2004
4,164
298
USA
✟36,362.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I am not an existentialist.

I may agree with existentialists on a few issues, but I wouldn't agree wholeheartedly that "existence precedes essence", which is the closest I can get to naming an essential position in existentialist philosophy.


eudaimonia,

Mark

In terms of ethics I would call you an existentialist. I think that virtue ethics is within the existential tradition.
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
In terms of ethics I would call you an existentialist. I think that virtue ethics is within the existential tradition.

What?!? Only if the Doctor from Doctor Who is involved.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Upvote 0

brightlights

A sinner
Jul 31, 2004
4,164
298
USA
✟36,362.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What?!? Only if the Doctor from Doctor Who is involved.


eudaimonia,

Mark

By existential tradition I mean that tradition which emphasizes ethics as personal fulfillment, transformation, etc... of which "existentialism" proper is only a small part.
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
By existential tradition I mean that tradition which emphasizes ethics as personal fulfillment, transformation, etc... of which "existentialism" proper is only a small part.

I don't know how you are associating that with virtue ethics as such. That goes back to Aristotle and Plato. It's quite a bit older than the Existentialists.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Upvote 0

brightlights

A sinner
Jul 31, 2004
4,164
298
USA
✟36,362.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I don't know how you are associating that with virtue ethics as such. That goes back to Aristotle and Plato. It's quite a bit older than the Existentialists.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Agreed.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
42,076
22,685
US
✟1,725,614.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm not certain what you mean by self-realization, but given popular meanings that is closest to my view.

Ethics is properly for the sake of personal flourishing, which can be described as self-realization or self-actualization, since it involves realizing (or actualizing) human potentials. Ethics in this sense is about self-creation -- creating your best self.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Yes. One way or another, ethics is a way of determining what your best self should be, then determining in every situation what action moves you closer to it.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
42,076
22,685
US
✟1,725,614.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think the etymology could be useful when distinguishing ethics from morals. Ethics comes from "ethos", meaning character, whereas morals comes from "mos", meaning custom. Ethics can include the study of right and wrong (whether or not this sense of right and wrong is mediated by custom or that-which-is-handed-down), but (especially in the classical, Aristotelean sense) ethics refers to character development, potentially to the level of happiness as Eudaimonia, as that guy with the similar name above said.

I think you're right etymologically speaking...because I've said the same thing. But getting agreement beyond the two of us could be tough.

Given this definition, I'd further say that ethics by definition is rational--by that, I mean ethics is thought out. There will be a rationale for an ethical position, even if there is debate on the validity of the rationale.

Morality, however, being a matter of custom, simply is what it is. There may or may not have been an original rationale for a moral value, it may or may not still be valid even if it had once been valid. It is not rational in the sense of having been thought out.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
42,076
22,685
US
✟1,725,614.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm going to appeal to authority here and say that it took something like over 2200 years for deontology (in Kant's view) and consequentialism (John Stuart Mill) to arrive. That's a very long time for the world to writhe on nonexistent ethics. Virtue ethics takes the cake.

The fact that it took 2200 years for them to be academically defined does not mean they did not exist. I would argue that Judaism is utterly deontological, as has been all military ethics since Sargon was a corporal.
 
Upvote 0

brightlights

A sinner
Jul 31, 2004
4,164
298
USA
✟36,362.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I think that Christianity says that ethics is all three at once. Secular ethics usually pits the three against one another. But in Christianity ethics is about duty to God, which happens to produce the most good in the world, and happens to bring about the highest self actualization. I think that without God you can never bring the three together.
 
Upvote 0

Received

True love waits in haunted attics
Mar 21, 2002
12,817
774
42
Visit site
✟53,594.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The fact that it took 2200 years for them to be academically defined does not mean they did not exist. I would argue that Judaism is utterly deontological, as has been all military ethics since Sargon was a corporal.

Right, which is why my jokes are pretty bad on these forums.

And good point about Judaism being deontological. That's the appearance and common interpretation, especially in Christianity. But I think that the ethico-religious (i.e., the Law) in Judaism is meant to fit with virtue ethics, given that following the Law means becoming a better person, having a better character, which is arguably theologically the intent behind giving the Law in the first place.
 
Upvote 0

brightlights

A sinner
Jul 31, 2004
4,164
298
USA
✟36,362.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Right, which is why my jokes are pretty bad on these forums.

And good point about Judaism being deontological. That's the appearance and common interpretation, especially in Christianity. But I think that the ethico-religious (i.e., the Law) in Judaism is meant to fit with virtue ethics, given that following the Law means becoming a better person, having a better character, which is arguably theologically the intent behind giving the Law in the first place.

Paul seems to say that the intent of the law was to expose sin and the root of sin which is unbelief. All dysfunctional behavior comes from the lie: "God cannot be trusted". The law, being only a deontological code, can never fix people because it does not displace the lie. Only the cross displaces the lie. When we see the love of God displayed in the sacrifice of his son we know that he can, indeed, be trusted. This displaces the lie and destroys sin. The law then becomes unnecessary.
 
Upvote 0

Received

True love waits in haunted attics
Mar 21, 2002
12,817
774
42
Visit site
✟53,594.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Dallas Willard says the law is "the course of righteousness, but not the source of righteousness," which makes the law a very important thing: it tells you how you should be. But if you follow the law entirely on your own will without faith, you become legalistic, caught in the "righteousness of the scribes and pharisees." To me, the law is a reminder when we get off course that we're not in a right faithful relationship to God, and that's the reason it's incredibly valuable: without it we wouldn't have a reminder that we need faith, but also that we're not the type of person who naturally aligns himself with the law -- or who has that type of character.

So I don't think the law really ever becomes unnecessary. It tells us when we're out of faith what it should look like to live in faith.
 
Upvote 0