What is Discipleship?

aiki

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In the past year or so I've made several threads in this subforum, though I've frequented CF for over a decade now. I've done so because I hate how hijacked this forum has been by posters offering pseudo-biblical and often outright false teaching on the mechanics of living as a disciple of Christ. This seems to be happening, as far as I can tell, because those posting regularly here receive little to no push back, no critical analysis of, the things they post.

I've been a discipler of men for over three decades now, as well as a teacher and preacher. At my current church, I've served as an Elder for the better part of a decade. I'm not new to the work of discipleship and to knowing and communicating the doctrines and spiritual principles of the faith. Out of this long labouring in discipleship, I can tell you that a great deal of what is posted as spiritual truth/wisdom on this Discipleship subforum is very close to unmitigated gobbledy-gook. A very recent thread OP in this subforum provides an excellent example of what I mean:

"Real Teachers, give The Cross all the Credit.
Listen for this....and when you are hearing....."do this, do that", keep this, keep that law, commandments, self effort, God only saves some..... self effort, self effort, self effort"""" you are not listening to a person who God called to Teach, Preach, Evangelize, Pastor, or be a Missionary."

This same poster, sharply condemning those who tell people to "do this, do that, keep this, keep that law, commandments, self-effort," warning believer's to avoid those who teach such things, writes the following prescription for disciples of Jesus:

"The best place to start your discipleship, subsequent to being born again, is to do 3 things.

1. Keep your mind on Christ, and learn to praise God and study Paul's epistles.


2.) Live each day knowing you are going to eventually meet Jesus, and Jesus is going to ask you....>"What have you done in my Body". What did you do for me, after you were saved, and from that day till NOW. ?????...Discipleship....is what you do for God and Christ,

3.) Find a good New Testament Teacher...So, find a good Teacher, and get your Pauline Theology together,...Learn to HEAR this, Reader...


All of the things I've underlined contain verbs - action words - prescribing for believers things they are to do. This poster, though, warned that those who do this, "who tell people do this, do that" are not called by God to teach, preach, evangelize, pastor or serve as a missionary! Why, then, is he attempting to do the very thing he says disqualifies a person from being a teacher? Do you, reader, see the self-contradictory character of such teaching? I hope so. There's a great deal of this very careless thinking and handling of God's word on this subforum. Beware!

What is discipleship? Here's a bare-bones, scriptural answer to this question:

Emulation is a crucial, primary aspect of discipleship, not of the one discipling, but of Christ. (Ro. 8:29)

Matthew 10:24-25
24 A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.
25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master...


Luke 6:40
40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher.


Romans 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren
.

1 Peter 2:21
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:

2 Timothy 2:2
2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.



I. Conditions of Discipleship.

Matthew 10:37-39
37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.


Matthew 16:24-25
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.


Luke 14:33
33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.


The basic idea here is that the disciple of Christ has an “all-in” attitude, a commitment to following Christ before and above all else, no matter the cost. This attitude to discipleship is vital, for, as Christ points out here, the cost is high. One must daily embrace the crucified life, denying one’s self for the sake of Christ, which is the sole avenue to the joyful, fruitful life of fellowship with God.

John 8:31-32
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."


A growing knowledge of Scripture is essential to discipleship (Psalms 1; Psalms 119:105; Psalms 119:11; Matthew 4:4; Philippians 4:8; 1 Peter 2:2, etc.). It is not knowledge alone that is the goal of discipleship, however, but “abiding” in it. That is, immersing one’s self in God’s word through memorization, meditation, study and obedience to it. As Jesus explains here, doing so is key to being free – free of the power of the World, the Flesh, and the devil, and free to live in the holy, Christ-centered way God intends we all should live.

II. How is Discipleship accomplished?

Jesus discipled by:

1.) Teaching.

Matthew 5:1-2 (NKJV)
1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him.
2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them...


2.) Demonstration.

1 Peter 2:21
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps...


Providing opportunity for emulation.

3.) Luke 10:1-9


III. Discipleship is the necessary next step after salvation.

Hebrews 5:12-14
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe.
14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is
, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.


IV. Replication.

2 Timothy 2:2
2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, the same commit to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.


Discipleship has not been truly accomplished if replication is not the result. At the end of a course of discipleship, the disciplee ought to be able to disciple another in turn.
 

Ceallaigh

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I can't help but notice you start out condemning others and extolling yourself, with a history and a list of credentials, that only contains vauge information. In my experience real teachers have fully transparent credentials and a detailed biography, so you can know exactly where they stand theologically
 
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aiki

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Sorry, but I disclose as little personal info online as possible. Just a general rule I follow online. If you think I'm off, show where and how. Read my many posts on this forum and if you discern a current of bad thinking and/or teaching in them, expose it. But you'd better know what you're talking about, if you do. I'll be just as critical of your thinking and views as you are of mine.

My posts, I believe, speak for themselves. If they don't persuade you I know what I'm talking about, giving you the particulars of my c.v. won't help. And you are, of course, under no obligation to read my posts. If you only accept teaching from those whose c.v. you know fully, so be it. It's no skin off my nose if you want to dismiss what I write.
 
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Ceallaigh

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This same poster, sharply condemning those who tell people to "do this, do that, keep this, keep that law, commandments, self-effort," warning believer's to avoid those who teach such things, writes the following prescription for disciples of Jesus:

Here's the thing. What he's been saying regarding those who teach "do this, do that, keep this, keep that law, commandments, self-effort," has been about justification, not discipleship. His claim is that teaching "do this, do that, keep this, keep that law, commandments, self-effort" to become saved, born again, receive justification is a false teaching. That while that does apply to discipleship, it doesn't apply to initial salvation. If I recall correctly, Zane Hodges said, "becoming saved is easy, being a disciple is hard" (or words to that effect). The teaching of the member you're talking about, in my opinion, is very close to that of Zane Hodges, Charles Ryrie, Bob Wilkin, Hank Lindstrom and Ralph Arnold. All of whom teach there's a separation between justification and sanctification ie discipleship.
 
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DamianWarS

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In the past year or so I've made several threads in this subforum, though I've frequented CF for over a decade now. I've done so because I hate how hijacked this forum has been by posters offering pseudo-biblical and often outright false teaching on the mechanics of living as a disciple of Christ. This seems to be happening, as far as I can tell, because those posting regularly here receive little to no push back, no critical analysis of, the things they post.

I've been a discipler of men for over three decades now, as well as a teacher and preacher. At my current church, I've served as an Elder for the better part of a decade. I'm not new to the work of discipleship and to knowing and communicating the doctrines and spiritual principles of the faith. Out of this long labouring in discipleship, I can tell you that a great deal of what is posted as spiritual truth/wisdom on this Discipleship subforum is very close to unmitigated gobbledy-gook. A very recent thread OP in this subforum provides an excellent example of what I mean:

"Real Teachers, give The Cross all the Credit.
Listen for this....and when you are hearing....."do this, do that", keep this, keep that law, commandments, self effort, God only saves some..... self effort, self effort, self effort"""" you are not listening to a person who God called to Teach, Preach, Evangelize, Pastor, or be a Missionary."

This same poster, sharply condemning those who tell people to "do this, do that, keep this, keep that law, commandments, self-effort," warning believer's to avoid those who teach such things, writes the following prescription for disciples of Jesus:

"The best place to start your discipleship, subsequent to being born again, is to do 3 things.

1. Keep your mind on Christ, and learn to praise God and study Paul's epistles.


2.) Live each day knowing you are going to eventually meet Jesus, and Jesus is going to ask you....>"What have you done in my Body". What did you do for me, after you were saved, and from that day till NOW. ?????...Discipleship....is what you do for God and Christ,

3.) Find a good New Testament Teacher...So, find a good Teacher, and get your Pauline Theology together,...Learn to HEAR this, Reader...


All of the things I've underlined contain verbs - action words - prescribing for believers things they are to do. This poster, though, warned that those who do this, "who tell people do this, do that" are not called by God to teach, preach, evangelize, pastor or serve as a missionary! Why, then, is he attempting to do the very thing he says disqualifies a person from being a teacher? Do you, reader, see the self-contradictory character of such teaching? I hope so. There's a great deal of this very careless thinking and handling of God's word on this subforum. Beware!

What is discipleship? Here's a bare-bones, scriptural answer to this question:

Emulation is a crucial, primary aspect of discipleship, not of the one discipling, but of Christ. (Ro. 8:29)

Matthew 10:24-25
24 A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.
25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master...


Luke 6:40
40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher.


Romans 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren
.

1 Peter 2:21
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:

2 Timothy 2:2
2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.



I. Conditions of Discipleship.

Matthew 10:37-39
37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.


Matthew 16:24-25
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.


Luke 14:33
33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.


The basic idea here is that the disciple of Christ has an “all-in” attitude, a commitment to following Christ before and above all else, no matter the cost. This attitude to discipleship is vital, for, as Christ points out here, the cost is high. One must daily embrace the crucified life, denying one’s self for the sake of Christ, which is the sole avenue to the joyful, fruitful life of fellowship with God.

John 8:31-32
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."


A growing knowledge of Scripture is essential to discipleship (Psalms 1; Psalms 119:105; Psalms 119:11; Matthew 4:4; Philippians 4:8; 1 Peter 2:2, etc.). It is not knowledge alone that is the goal of discipleship, however, but “abiding” in it. That is, immersing one’s self in God’s word through memorization, meditation, study and obedience to it. As Jesus explains here, doing so is key to being free – free of the power of the World, the Flesh, and the devil, and free to live in the holy, Christ-centered way God intends we all should live.

II. How is Discipleship accomplished?

Jesus discipled by:

1.) Teaching.

Matthew 5:1-2 (NKJV)
1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him.
2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them...


2.) Demonstration.

1 Peter 2:21
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps...


Providing opportunity for emulation.

3.) Luke 10:1-9


III. Discipleship is the necessary next step after salvation.

Hebrews 5:12-14
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe.
14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is
, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.


IV. Replication.

2 Timothy 2:2
2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, the same commit to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.


Discipleship has not been truly accomplished if replication is not the result. At the end of a course of discipleship, the disciplee ought to be able to disciple another in turn.
Discipleship should be looked at a prossess with progressive milestones but what you present seems more the goal rather than a starting point. We shouldn't look at "fixing" people before they enter discipleship as the process of discipleship is the shaping and the molding. Christ simply asks "follow me" to his disciples which is a very packed statement but he seems fine with this and the only prerequisite seems to be a willingness to follow him and subsequent response to this call.
 
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aiki

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Here's the thing. What he's been saying regarding those who teach "do this, do that, keep this, keep that law, commandments, self-effort," has been about justification, not discipleship.

Yes, I know. Using his writing as an example in my OP wasn't aimed at discussing the difference between these two things but at illustrating the enormous inconsistency in his thinking (common to many of the threads in this subforum) to which he seemed entirely oblivious.

His claim is that teaching "do this, do that, keep this, keep that law, commandments, self-effort" to become saved, born again, receive justification is a false teaching.

Which is the very thing he does throughout his own prescriptions to readers in his post!

I am a staunch proponent of the eternal security doctrine (though, I'm not a Calvinist) and have, on CF, gone back-and-forth at great length with some of the more avid proponents of a saved-and-lost/works-salvation perspective. I'm all for the doctrine that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. But this doctrine was not what I was drawing attention to in my example from his post.

If I recall correctly, Zane Hodges said, "becoming saved is easy, being a disciple is hard" (or words to that effect). The teaching of the member you're talking about, in my opinion, is very close to that of Zane Hodges, Charles Ryrie, Bob Wilkin, Hank Lindstrom and Ralph Arnold. All of whom teach there's a separation between justification and sanctification ie discipleship.

I, too, hold the view that while justification and sanctification overlap, one cannot be justified by way of sanctification. The "flow" of things soteriologically is from justification to sanctification, not the reverse.

My issue with the writer of the example I used in my OP wasn't with his view of these things but with the careless, confused expression of his ideas that were so tangled they became self-refuting. At the very least, if one is proposing to teach others, one should avoid refuting oneself in what one teaches. As a long-time discipler, I have a strong desire to see effective discipleship going on throughout the Church. And so, I think of a new believer encountering the cockeyed, confusing writing of some on this subforum and cringe at the path the new believer may take into Christian living as a result.

By the way, I wasn't (from my p.o.v., anyway) "extolling myself" as you asserted, but offering a basis for my writing on the matter of discipleship. I was answering the "Why do you care?" question and hoping also to ground my comments in experience, not just doctrinal theory, for the reader.
 
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aiki

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Thanks for your comments.

Discipleship should be looked at a prossess with progressive milestones but what you present seems more the goal rather than a starting point.

Hmmm...okay... Don't you think the process and the starting point of discipleship are ordered significantly by the goal? If I'm going to skydive from a plane, that goal will order everything I do to prepare to jump from the plane, right? If I'm going to skydive successfully, there are a bunch of things I must do and a bunch of things I must not do. If I neglect to attend to these things that are necessary to reaching the goal of skydiving, chances are I'll never skydive, or, if I do, end up a bloody pancake on the ground. So, too, it seems to me, with discipleship. The goal of Christ-emulation is vital to orienting me correctly in discipleship, ordering what I do and don't do.

We shouldn't look at "fixing" people before they enter discipleship as the process of discipleship is the shaping and the molding.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean here... Why does "shaping and molding" happen at all if we aren't supposed to be "fixing" people?

Christ simply asks "follow me" to his disciples which is a very packed statement but he seems fine with leaving it unpacked where the only prerequisite seems to be a willingness to follow him and subsequent response to this call.

I offered verses spoken by Christ himself that don't appear to agree with you, here. Certainly, in a first century Jewish context, what Jesus was asking of those who became his first disciples would have had much more layered into it culturally than what you suggest here. The Rabbi-disciple relationship and all that such a relationship meant (for both parties) would have been strongly evident in Christ's call to the Twelve. And Jesus was very direct and explicit about the nature, the cost, of being his disciple. The Twelve would have experienced this cost immediately, dropping their business at a moment's notice, leaving their close relations, and following a man they appeared to know nothing of.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Yes, I know. Using his writing as an example in my OP wasn't aimed at discussing the difference between these two things but at illustrating the enormous inconsistency in his thinking (common to many of the threads in this subforum) to which he seemed entirely oblivious.



Which is the very thing he does throughout his own prescriptions to readers in his post!

I am a staunch proponent of the eternal security doctrine (though, I'm not a Calvinist) and have, on CF, gone back-and-forth at great length with some of the more avid proponents of a saved-and-lost/works-salvation perspective. I'm all for the doctrine that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. But this doctrine was not what I was drawing attention to in my example from his post.



I, too, hold the view that while justification and sanctification overlap, one cannot be justified by way of sanctification. The "flow" of things soteriologically is from justification to sanctification, not the reverse.

My issue with the writer of the example I used in my OP wasn't with his view of these things but with the careless, confused expression of his ideas that were so tangled they became self-refuting. At the very least, if one is proposing to teach others, one should avoid refuting oneself in what one teaches. As a long-time discipler, I have a strong desire to see effective discipleship going on throughout the Church. And so, I think of a new believer encountering the cockeyed, confusing writing of some on this subforum and cringe at the path the new believer may take into Christian living as a result.

By the way, I wasn't (from my p.o.v., anyway) "extolling myself" as you asserted, but offering a basis for my writing on the matter of discipleship. I was answering the "Why do you care?" question and hoping also to ground my comments in experience, not just doctrinal theory, for the reader.

You used the difference in his teaching of discipleship/sanctification, to say it contradicts his teaching of justification/salvation - when they're not the same thing. I don't get that, just like I don't get starting a thread to rebut another thread (while keeping that thread and its OP a secret) instead of just rebutting that person directly.

As a side note, when someone says they've been a pastor, teacher and long time decipler, it's going to cause people to wonder of what denomination/theology? It says Baptist in your profile, so I'll assume it was for a Baptist church, but does that mean like the Westboro Baptist Church? You see what I mean? You could be a little more specific without having to disclose your full identity.

For example, I was once a lay-pastor and Sunday school teacher for an Assemblies of God church that taught standard AG doctrine.
 
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aiki

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You used the difference in his teaching of discipleship/sanctification, to say it contradicts his teaching of justification/salvation - when they're not the same thing

No, actually, I didn't. My comments in my OP, as I pointed out, were to his self-refuting thinking, not to his views on justification and sanctification.

I don't get that, just like I don't get starting a thread to rebut another thread (while keeping that thread and its OP a secret) instead of just rebutting that person directly.

I've already directly challenged the other poster concerning terrible wresting of Scripture in which he engaged. He refused to acknowledge any error and didn't seem even to understand what they were - like you in criticizing my OP.

As a side note, when someone says they've been a pastor, teacher and long time decipler, it's going to cause people to wonder of what denomination/theology? It says Baptist in your profile, so I'll assume it was for a Baptist church, but does that mean like the Westboro Baptist Church? You see what I mean?

No, I don't see what you mean. Should I accord you the same snarky skepticism you're giving to me? Are you of some strange, militantly-radical fringe group within Christianity just because I can imagine that you could be? Of course not.

For example, I was once a lay-pastor and Sunday school teacher for an Assemblies of God church that taught standard AG doctrine.

Uh huh. Not sure what purpose divulging this is supposed to serve...
 
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DamianWarS

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Hmmm...okay... Don't you think the process and the starting point of discipleship are ordered significantly by the goal? If I'm going to skydive from a plane, that goal will order everything I do to prepare to jump from the plane, right? If I'm going to skydive successfully, there are a bunch of things I must do and a bunch of things I must not do. If I neglect to attend to these things that are necessary to reaching the goal of skydiving, chances are I'll never skydive, or, if I do, end up a bloody pancake on the ground. So, too, it seems to me, with discipleship. The goal of Christ-emulation is vital to orienting me correctly in discipleship, ordering what I do and don't do.

Let's put it this way using your analogy. I want to jump out of a plane so I begin to study all that needs to be done, I do all the training necessary, I understand the risk, I book the plane, I get all the prep needed. I suit up, get on board, the plane makes its climb then at the right spot I jump because of the prep I do, I do it confidently. You are saying after the jump I am a skydiver, I'm saying the moment I started the process I was a skydiver.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean here... Why does "shaping and molding" happen at all if we aren't supposed to be "fixing" people?

God does the shaping and molding, not us (he's the potter). followers of Christ are lead by Christ, not men. we certainly have a role but we do not fix people (we don't have the capacity to)

I offered verses spoken by Christ himself that don't appear to agree with you, here. Certainly, in a first century Jewish context, what Jesus was asking of those who became his first disciples would have had much more layered into it culturally than what you suggest here. The Rabbi-disciple relationship and all that such a relationship meant (for both parties) would have been strongly evident in Christ's call to the Twelve. And Jesus was very direct and explicit about the nature, the cost, of being his disciple. The Twelve would have experienced this cost immediately, dropping their business at a moment's notice, leaving their close relations, and following a man they appeared to know nothing of.

Christ approaches his disciples with a simple command "follow me" and he leaves it at that. They dropped everything of course but we have the luxury of reading about 12 who followed not all the 100 who scoffed at him and ignored Christ. At which point did the disciples understand what they were getting into fully? would they have signed up had they knew what was really going to happen? Did they view Jesus at the time as the Messiah or as God's son when Christ asks them to follow him (or did that come later?) the cost is certainly everything but that doesn't mean we have to fix all our theological misgivings before we start following Christ. Christ's parables were very loaded but he didn't explain them often and left them as is (even if that meant people leaving). We shouldn't have to feel the need to jump to the chase every time. Christ asks Peter who does he say he is? Peter answers that he is the Son of God and Christ tells him that it wasn't flesh and blood that revealed this to him but God. We need to let God do the revealing more (he does it a lot better than us anyway)
 
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aiki

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Let's put it this way using your analogy. I want to jump out of a plane so I begin to study all that needs to be done, I do all the training necessary, I understand the risk, I book the plane, I get all the prep needed. I suit up, get on board, the plane makes its climb then at the right spot I jump because of the prep I do, I do it confidently. You are saying after the jump I am a skydiver, I'm saying the moment I started the process I was a skydiver.

No, I don't think anything I've written suggests what you are asserting here. Again, the whole reason someone would do all the prep necessary to skydive is the goal of jumping from a plane. Whether a person is fully a skydiver at the moment they jump or before is unimportant to my point, which was that the goal of actually skydiving orders the efforts of the would-be skydiver as the goals of Christian discipleship (Christlikeness) order the efforts of the disciple.

I wonder, though, about your claim that engaging in the process of preparation to be a skydiver (or disciple) constitutes being a disciple. If one only ever prepared to jump from a plane but never did, would they be able to claim legitimately that they were a skydiver? It doesn't seem so to me. Preparing to skydive is not the same as actually skydiving. In the same way, it is hard to see how preparing to be a disciple of Christ is the same as actually being one. I'm not even sure what it means to be "prepare to be a disciple of Christ." It seems either one is a disciple of Christ, or they are not.

I suppose one could think about becoming a disciple of Christ, ponder the cost of doing so, assess the pros and cons of discipleship and in this way prepare to be a disciple. But would this evaluation process constitute being a disciple? I don't see how.

God does the shaping and molding, not us (he's the potter). followers of Christ are lead by Christ, not men. we certainly have a role but we do not fix people (we don't have the capacity to)

Are you saying God does not use His Church, the Body of Believers, to influence and teach and shape his children? Yes, ultimately God is the One who transforms the individual believer, but His means of doing so include those He has gifted as teachers, preachers and so on within the Church. (Ephesians 4:11-16) And so, we have Paul writing to Timothy to act in the lives of others as he has acted in Timothy's:

2 Timothy 2:1-2
1 You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus,
2 and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.


Christ approaches his disciples with a simple command "follow me" and he leaves it at that.

But his call to them was issued within the first-century Jewish context where the Rabbi-student relationship was common. And much of the Rabbi-student relationship is evident in the dynamic between Christ and the Twelve.

Are you saying however the disciples drop everything in full knowledge? At which point did the disciples understand what they were getting into fully?

They knew, at least, that the general shape of their relationship to Christ was going to be akin to the Rabbi-student relationship with which all Jews were familiar. More than that, they had to wait to discover.

the cost is certainly everything but that doesn't mean we have to fix all our theological misgivings before we start following Christ.

This isn't how Christ preached, though, is it? He's quite unequivocal in his cut-and-dried remarks in Matthew 16:24-25, and Matthew 10:34-39 and John 12:24-25. I don't see any "wiggle room" in the remarks he makes in these passages. He preaches in a very "all-in" way, a way very uncomfortable to modern, western, consumer-type Christians.

We shouldn't have to feel the need to jump to the chase every time.

I don't know what you mean here. "Jump to the chase"? It sounds like you're excusing or justifying a half-hearted pursuit of Christ. You're not, right? Maybe you're referring more to discipleship? You're saying being discipled is negotiable, a take-it-or-leave-it thing? I don't see discipleship described this way in Scripture.

Christ asks Peter who does he say he is? Peter answers that he is the Son of God and Christ tells him that it wasn't flesh and blood that revealed this to him but God. We need to let God do the revealing more (he does it a lot better than us anyway)

I don't know why you have taken up in your thinking the notion that discipleship and the teaching of the Holy Spirit are at odds with each other. They appear to be united in the writings of the apostles in the NT, the former a God-ordained complement to the latter. See the passage from Ephesians 4. I agree with you that God is the ultimate Teacher of His truth to the Christian. But this doesn't necessarily exclude the various human means by which God enacts His education of His children.
 
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DamianWarS

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No, I don't think anything I've written suggests what you are asserting here. Again, the whole reason someone would do all the prep necessary to skydive is the goal of jumping from a plane. Whether a person is fully a skydiver at the moment they jump or before is unimportant to my point, which was that the goal of actually skydiving orders the efforts of the would-be skydiver as the goals of Christian discipleship (Christlikeness) order the efforts of the disciple.

I wonder, though, about your claim that engaging in the process of preparation to be a skydiver (or disciple) constitutes being a disciple. If one only ever prepared to jump from a plane but never did, would they be able to claim legitimately that they were a skydiver? It doesn't seem so to me. Preparing to skydive is not the same as actually skydiving. In the same way, it is hard to see how preparing to be a disciple of Christ is the same as actually being one. I'm not even sure what it means to be "prepare to be a disciple of Christ." It seems either one is a disciple of Christ, or they are not.

I suppose one could think about becoming a disciple of Christ, ponder the cost of doing so, assess the pros and cons of discipleship and in this way prepare to be a disciple. But would this evaluation process constitute being a disciple? I don't see how.

training is discipleship. there are milestones indeed, but discipleship is a journey not a single moment.

Are you saying God does not use His Church, the Body of Believers, to influence and teach and shape his children? Yes, ultimately God is the One who transforms the individual believer, but His means of doing so include those He has gifted as teachers, preachers and so on within the Church. (Ephesians 4:11-16) And so, we have Paul writing to Timothy to act in the lives of others as he has acted in Timothy's:

I'm saying it's not our role to fix people

But his call to them was issued within the first-century Jewish context where the Rabbi-student relationship was common. And much of the Rabbi-student relationship is evident in the dynamic between Christ and the Twelve.

Christ used a method to reach those of a first-century Jewish context. We to can do the same or as Paul puts it "I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some". They may have understood what it meant to follow a Rabbi, albeit an unconventional one, but they did not understand the whole picture.

They knew, at least, that the general shape of their relationship to Christ was going to be akin to the Rabbi-student relationship with which all Jews were familiar. More than that, they had to wait to discover.

sure, people also have a broad understanding of a commitment to be a Christian as well, they can wait to discover too. Christ certainly could have unpacked it all once, but he didn't, rather he simply says "follow me".

This isn't how Christ preached, though, is it? He's quite unequivocal in his cut-and-dried remarks in Matthew 16:24-25, and Matthew 10:34-39 and John 12:24-25. I don't see any "wiggle room" in the remarks he makes in these passages. He preaches in a very "all-in" way, a way very uncomfortable to modern, western, consumer-type Christians.

in these passages, the disciples (as in the 12) are the audience. this is part of discipleship indeed, learning along the way of what it takes and counting the costs.

I don't know why you have taken up in your thinking the notion that discipleship and the teaching of the Holy Spirit are at odds with each other. They appear to be united in the writings of the apostles in the NT, the former a God-ordained complement to the latter. See the passage from Ephesians 4. I agree with you that God is the ultimate Teacher of His truth to the Christian. But this doesn't necessarily exclude the various human means by which God enacts His education of His children.

I'm not sure how you came up with those conclusions about what I'm saying. The church is the body of Christ and we carry out his actions in his name. we are to encourage and build up each other and to spread his message to as many people as possible. The HS draws people, we don't, so no matter how hard we try it is always the HS in the end. We are to work with the HS, not work alone. Christ is God and that's something that was revealed to the disciples not told. We can walk them through a process but we should be careful not to spoon-feed the answers because when we do we rob them of the revelation from God. For example, how do you know Jesus is God? is it because someone told you? is it because you read it? or is it because God revealed it to you? the latter is far more impactful and what needs to happen to every believer. We foster the process but they do the heavy lifting.
 
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aiki

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training is discipleship. there are milestones indeed, but discipleship is a journey not a single moment.

Yes. I agree.

I'm saying it's not our role to fix people

Yes. I don't think I've ever suggested otherwise... What you've said here is true and worth repeating, regardless.

Christ used a method to reach those of a first-century Jewish context. We to can do the same or as Paul puts it "I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some".

The style of discipleship may alter within a particular culture or subculture, yes. But the essentials of discipleship I laid out in my OP don't. They are as unchanging as the God they reflect.

The church is the body of Christ and we carry out his actions in his name. we are to encourage and build up each other and to spread his message to as many people as possible. The HS draws people, we don't, so no matter how hard we try it is always the HS in the end. We are to work with the HS, not work alone.

I agree with you. What do you mean by "working with Holy Spirit"?

Christ is God and that's something that was revealed to the disciples not told.

Not sure what you mean, here. No one can know that Christ is God, or even that Christ exists, without being first told. Being convinced of these things is God's work, definitely, but Paul makes it pretty clear that the "teller" is still a vital part of how God reveals Himself and His truth to people.

Romans 10:14
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

We can walk them through a process but we should be careful not to spoon-feed the answers because when we do we rob them of the revelation from God. For example, how do you know Jesus is God? is it because someone told you? is it because you read it? or is it because God revealed it to you? the latter is far more impactful and what needs to happen to every believer. We foster the process but they do the heavy lifting.

What is does it mean to "spoon-feed the answers" to someone? Did Peter "spoon-feed" the Gospel to folks in Acts 2? What about all that is taught in the various apostolic letters of the NT? They are detailed, and direct, and often very didactic in their teachings. How does this differ from "spoon-feeding"?

It's dangerous, I think, to create a dichotomy between believing the truth and hearing the truth. These things are complementary to each other, not at odds. Yes, God is the Ultimate Teacher of His truth to people, driving it home in them in a way no human teacher can do. But God does this often in tandem with those He's gifted as teachers and preachers, not in spite of, or apart from, them.
 
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DamianWarS

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The style of discipleship may alter within a particular culture or subculture, yes. But the essentials of discipleship I laid out in my OP don't. They are as unchanging as the God they reflect.

the op is about targets and goals, not starting positions

I agree with you. What do you mean by "working with Holy Spirit"?

spreading the Gospel like there is a Holy Spirit rather than it left up to us if the person believes or not

Not sure what you mean, here. No one can know that Christ is God, or even that Christ exists, without being first told. Being convinced of these things is God's work, definitely, but Paul makes it pretty clear that the "teller" is still a vital part of how God reveals Himself and His truth to people.

who told Peter? I'm speaking of revelation not just head knowledge. We can't tell someone revelation, they have to experience it for themselves. I first was introduced to the idea that Christ is God when I was a child, likely in Sunday school or from my parents but I have since received revelation that Christ is God, revelation that can't be told and must be experienced.

What is does it mean to "spoon-feed the answers" to someone? Did Peter "spoon-feed" the Gospel to folks in Acts 2? What about all that is taught in the various apostolic letters of the NT? They are detailed, and direct, and often very didactic in their teachings. How does this differ from "spoon-feeding"?

It's dangerous, I think, to create a dichotomy between believing the truth and hearing the truth. These things are complementary to each other, not at odds. Yes, God is the Ultimate Teacher of His truth to people, driving it home in them in a way no human teacher can do. But God does this often in tandem with those He's gifted as teachers and preachers, not in spite of, or apart from, them.

What truth did the disciples believe and hear from "follow me". perhaps they had some foreknowledge as to who Christ was, perhaps they saw a miracle and was drawn to it but was that "truth" complete or did it unpack futher while they walked with Christ on the earth? did it even go beyond after Christ ascended? You seem to be viewing discipleship very one dimentional, its a process not a moment.

In Acts 2 revelation came through tongues, then Peter unpack it because there was a need to unpack it but the HS was the initiator, these people also knew scripture so Peter just walked them through their existing head knowledge. contrast this with Acts 17 and there is another interjectory sermon but very different. Paul in Acts 17 plays to the knowledge of his audience even referencing an idol to the unknown god. There's certainly a study on this but we're talking about discipleship not sermons. a sermon is a hook that captures people's attention, discipleship happens outside the sermon. We need to understand the process and allow the HS to do his work rather than taking over.

For example, Q: is Jesus God? A: What do you think? Let's explore that and read some passages. (then afterwards tell them to pray about it). You didn't tell the answer and instead fostered discovery as well as dependance as God as the source. Or you can read some passages together and rather preach to them ask them what they think it means or use some broad questions like "what did this passage teach you about God" "what did this passage teach you about yourself". Help them by keeping in context but don't give them the answers, let it develop within them. it's a longer game but that's the point isn't, not fast tracked conversions but lives impacted for Christ.
 
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aiki

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the op is about targets and goals, not starting positions

You need to re-read the OP, then. Your characterization of it here is mistaken. As I said, "targets and goals" order one's "starting position" and the steps from that position onward to the goal. You are, it seems to me, artificially separating the goal from the journey to it. They aren't as distinctly separate as you seem to want to make them.

spreading the Gospel like there is a Holy Spirit rather than it left up to us if the person believes or not

??? This is to say something without really saying anything.

who told Peter? I'm speaking of revelation not just head knowledge. We can't tell someone revelation, they have to experience it for themselves.

Head knowledge and revelation differ how, exactly?

Again, there is a false dichotomy here. A revelation is a kind of knowledge. It may differ from "head knowledge" but it is not separate from it, as the NT makes very clear.

You seem to be viewing discipleship very one dimentional, its a process not a moment.

No, this is incorrect. I don't view discipleship this way.

In Acts 2 revelation came through tongues,

What Peter declared in the street in Acts 2 came through direct, personal experience of the life and death of Christ. But he spoke in the power of the Spirit, being heard by all who listened, regardless of what language they spoke.

these people also knew scripture so Peter just walked them through their existing head knowledge.

Only the Jews in the crowd listening to Peter would know anything much about the Tanakh. There were many from other cultures who heard Peter, not just Jews.

discipleship happens outside the sermon. We need to understand the process and allow the HS to do his work rather than taking over.

You use phrases that remain vague to me. What does "allow the Holy Spirit to do his work" mean, exactly? And who's suggesting a "take over" of the Spirit's illumination? I'm certainly not.

For example, Q: is Jesus God? A: What do you think? Let's explore that and read some passages. (then afterwards tell them to pray about it). You didn't tell the answer and instead fostered discovery as well as dependance as God as the source.

Uh huh. This is different from listening to a sermon, yes. Do you want to know about the precise methods of discipleship that I use, or do you just want to continue to assume I'm doing it all wrong, attempting to act in the place of the Holy Spirit as a discipler?

Or you can read some passages together and rather preach to them ask them what they think it means or use some broad questions like "what did this passage teach you about God" "what did this passage teach you about yourself".

Is this what discipleship looked like in the NT? What you describe here often becomes the "blind leading the blind," an exercise in relativistic, individual-centered rather than truth-centered, learning. There is a place for letting the one being discipled prayerfully dig for the truth in the Bible for themselves but I also see a very directly instructive style of teaching from the apostles in the NT. Again, there is a place for both, not the false dichotomy of only the guiding, psychotherapeutic style of teaching or the "bad" instructive style you've set up here.

Help them by keeping in context but don't give them the answers, let it develop within them. it's a longer game but that's the point isn't, not fast tracked conversions but lives impacted for Christ.

Uh huh. This "development of the answer" has its place in discipleship. Sometimes, though, the learning in discipleship may be unnecessarily protracted by the discipler refusing to be directly instructive. Investigation and instruction go together in discipleship; they aren't at odds with each other, but complementary.
 
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DamianWarS

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You need to re-read the OP, then. Your characterization of it here is mistaken. As I said, "targets and goals" order one's "starting position" and the steps from that position onward to the goal. You are, it seems to me, artificially separating the goal from the journey to it. They aren't as distinctly separate as you seem to want to make them.

it's the messaging of discipleship that I think the organized church has packaged too much and tries to make the perfect pitch or catch-all sinners prayer to ensure they got it. In doing so we rely much on our own abilities of how well can we convince someone which I think misses the point.

??? This is to say something without really saying anything.

to continue with the above, we try too hard like as if we are the only ones doing it and there is no HS. We need to pull back more and allow the HS to have a role in discipleship.

Head knowledge and revelation differ how, exactly?

Again, there is a false dichotomy here. A revelation is a kind of knowledge. It may differ from "head knowledge" but it is not separate from it, as the NT makes very clear.

revelation is more of a heart knowledge that drives and motivates our actions. we may say we believe in God but have no meaningful connection with God outside of the details

No, this is incorrect. I don't view discipleship this way.

perhaps not, but it seems a narrow view.

What Peter declared in the street in Acts 2 came through direct, personal experience of the life and death of Christ. But he spoke in the power of the Spirit, being heard by all who listened, regardless of what language they spoke.

Peter's sermon is in response to the baptism of the Holy Spirit with an outward audible/visible sign of the HS, he spoke indeed with the power of the HS and promoted by the HS. this is very clear in the text but I'm not sure how this provides instruction to discipleship?

Only the Jews in the crowd listening to Peter would know anything much about the Tanakh. There were many from other cultures who heard Peter, not just Jews.

this is the benefit to these sort of open-air sermons, by we are talking about discipleship not sermons.

You use phrases that remain vague to me. What does "allow the Holy Spirit to do his work" mean, exactly? And who's suggesting a "take over" of the Spirit's illumination? I'm certainly not.

the HS has a role and we shouldn't plan discipleship without the HS. not just a passive role either, but an active participating role like as if the HS is a person in the room a part of the discipleship.

Uh huh. This is different from listening to a sermon, yes. Do you want to know about the precise methods of discipleship that I use, or do you just want to continue to assume I'm doing it all wrong, attempting to act in the place of the Holy Spirit as a discipler?

I'm replying to the OP, not your personal methods, you're welcome to expand up those as you feel the need to.

Is this what discipleship looked like in the NT? What you describe here often becomes the "blind leading the blind," an exercise in relativistic, individual-centered rather than truth-centered, learning. There is a place for letting the one being discipled prayerfully dig for the truth in the Bible for themselves but I also see a very directly instructive style of teaching from the apostles in the NT. Again, there is a place for both, not the false dichotomy of only the guiding, psychotherapeutic style of teaching or the "bad" instructive style you've set up here.

I suppose you missed how Jesus spoke to the crowds or called his disciples and spoke to them. It's not unplanned but very strategic. Paul wrote letters to churches and those letters take a more direct approach, they would be read out similar to sermons and past to fellowship to fellowship. This is not really discipleship, the actual discipleship would happen on the ground. The OP is goal-focused to me and laudable but it shouldn't be seen as a hard line for the starting place.

Uh huh. This "development of the answer" has its place in discipleship. Sometimes, though, the learning in discipleship may be unnecessarily protracted by the discipler refusing to be directly instructive. Investigation and instruction go together in discipleship; they aren't at odds with each other, but complementary.

of course, we need to gauge what is needed but if we spoon feed the answers they develop a dependency on the teacher. it's the old proverb about teaching a man how to fish. we have too many who get fish handed to them and no skill to fish themselves. Entire churches are filled with those hungry for fish but no clue how to get it. we should be training not just disciples but disciple makers from day 1.
 
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