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i believe that the spiritual being in heaven, is housed in a spiritual body.Referring to your last sentence...going from heaven (a spiritual being) to be raised (a physical being again) to live on earth again...Do I understand you correctly?
Originally Posted by zeke37
the grave here, refers to where the dead's earthly bodies reside...not their soul. their soul and spirit is in heaven.you're going to have to demonstrate this proof, because i'm not seeing it even with the books you reference.
it is figurative...
their soul, or spirit, goes to God at flesh death.
it is an easy thing to prove.
the dead are in heaven today...see Matt22, Luk16, 1Thes4 and Rev5/6/12/19/22
1Thes4:13-16Originally Posted by zeke37
the righteous dead leave heaven with Christ at His 2nd Coming,the dead leave heaven to come to earth to be resurrected? again, you're going to have to demonstrate what you are talking about.
and they come here with Him,
and are raised here....
then those of us who are alive at that time, are gathered/siezed together with them.
see 1Thes4:13-16
well, if the dead are in heaven now,Originally Posted by zeke37
He's talking about the resurrection of the dead. that has not happened yet.here again, i would like for you to qualify what you are saying here with some scriptural support.
too many Christians errantly think that "resurrection" is for the dead to go from the grave.tombs etc, up to heaven...
when it doesn't mean that at all.
but since they believe that, they believe no one is in heaven today.
problem is that there are MULTIPLE scriptures that plainly show that the dead are in heaven today, concious and some are even working for the Lord.
resurrection means going from heaven, to be raised and live on earth again, as promised.
i have never read anything in the bible that supports what you are saying.
well, what ever is left of us after flesh death, returns to God.Hi Zeke,
There is no scripture that mentions souls going back to God when they die; only ruach breath wgich is the breath of life from God.
to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.the spirit returns "to God who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7)
Psalm 104:29b thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to dust. (body and soul)
The difference between spirit and soul are not being discerned.
well, what ever is left of us after flesh death, returns to God.
as I have repeatedly posted in this thread, 1Thes4 shows that the dead return here with Christ, as He brings the dead here with Him.
and as I have posted before, Mat22, Luk16, Rev5/6/12/17/19 all show the dead in heaven doing things...speaking....
to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
what ever is left of "us" after "flesh death" goes back to God.It's not 'us' that returns to God, its God's breath of life (spirit).
Read 2 corinthinas 5;8 again and the verse reads 'and to be present..'.
that is not what Paul is stating.What Paul is staing, and not to be contradictory with the rest of scripture is his next waking moment will be the last day in his new resurrection body. But the last day has not happened yet and nor has the general resurrection.
...The dead are not doing anything yet
their flesh body is. but the rest of them is not.they are still in the grave (John 5:28-29)
what ever is left of "us" after "flesh death" goes back to God.
some call that spirit/breath, some call that soul.
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.so while we are at home in this body (the flesh), we are absent from the Lord.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight; )
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
and if we are absent from this flesh body, we will be present with the Lord.
i don't see your objection.
i did not quote that scripture this morning...but rather recited from memory.
sorry about the and to is thing.
was not meant. my bad
but it does not change the jist of the chapter.
that is not what Paul is stating.
and i agree that that day and the general resurrection has not happened yet.
if it had, the righteous dead would be walking the earth again.
that is the resurrection
resurrection is for life on earth again, not for life in heaven.
...
sure they are....
just not their flesh bodies, and not here on earth at this time.
but in heaven, sure....
see Luke16
see Mat22
see Rev's 5/6/12/19/22
their flesh body is. but the rest of them is not.
so, all that have died in the flesh, will here His voice and rise to life here again.
the "rising" is in relation to life on the earth again, as they had been before,
not up to heaven.
no.
all dead exist in heaven today, until the resurrection where the righteous return with Him from heaven and are raised.
see 1Thes4.
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.their flesh never gets raised...
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
it is their spiritual body/heavenly body (or soul), that is brought here and raised here by Christ.
that spiritual/heavenly body that the dead exist in, in heaven today, is incorruptible like the angels.
and immortal if they are faithfull to God.
Only for the righteous.well, what ever is left of us after flesh death, returns to God.
Oly applies to those who entered heaven and the wicked or non Christian didn't go there upon death.as I have repeatedly posted in this thread, 1Thes4 shows that the dead return here with Christ, as He brings the dead here with Him.
and as I have posted before, Mat22, Luk16, Rev5/6/12/17/19 all show the dead in heaven doing things...speaking....
Only for a select few. IOW Jesus doesn't bring the non believer from heaven because the didn't go there in the first place.to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
You misquote 1 thessalonians 4:13, because the dead cannot be in 2 places at once, and Paul is stating they are asleep (inline with Job 14:10-12, Psalm 146:4, Dan 12:2) before they are raised. Paul is not teaching a dual jnature, but you have to understand that Christ will raise us up out of the grave and then we are brought with him into the air to the new Jerusalem, not bringing 'souls' (which there are no biblical references to support that view anywhere) down, to somehow connect them to theor resurrection body. It simply does not happen that way.
You quoted Luke 16. It is a parable and I see no word 'soul' (psuche) in that passage and I suggest you look into why it is not literal.
The Rev quotes have not happened yet!!!
What does that mean to you really? I do have a good idea what you think it means However what ever I say prolly will be argued about so I need you to say what it means. I have first hadn dealing with this issue. [/quote]na, it's just that i'd like to be understood properly_
Where who is? I thought you said all went to heaven. Surely you're not ask if I want to got to heaven a place of bliss?if you really wanna go where he is....ok then...
How many perspectives are we dealing with here? I thought it was only yours and mine. You didn't say anything leading me to believe something else. I spoke about my perspective that you responded to.well, it's from someone's mis-perspective.
don't know how you could come up with that from my posts....lol
I've never heard that there was an undesirable neighborhood in heaven. Would love to see some Scriptural support for this idea. Should be interesting.well, where are Abraham and Lazarus?
in heaven right?
but they are on the good side of the gulf.
Beats me but doesn't sound like the same place.where is the rich man if He can see Abraham and Lazarus,
and even talk to them???
[/color]
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.the dead in Christ are of course those that 'sleep" in Christ.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
I don't think the when is all that important. I have been discussing the final results and you throw in some intermeadiate place like purgatory. What ever you're talking about I've never heard before. And I've talked to my share of weirdos.[/color]
at judgement, after the IMO still future Millennium, not at their flesh death.
Here is the full deal from you site - from apo - apo 575 and the base of oleqroV - olethros 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish. Please notice the green highlight.greek does read destroyed fully
as i have always said.
the proper strong's concordance definition shows destroyed fully as the meaning, whether literal or figurative.
you are not using the Strong's Concordance, although granted that MANY Christians THINK that they are.
lots of errant copycats out there.
There is nothing in the text to imply fully implying annihilation as you contend.good for your dictionary...when FULLY is added, what is left?
and that is what the Strong's says, and that is what the english verse more than implies, to me at least.
No sale! There is a gulf between them indicating different places.sure it does, but one has to stay in context.
Did you go to and examine my source? I'm fairly wure you said no, but will have to check the post to be sure. Your statement here may be after doing so.since we are talking about destroying a soul in hell,
and the greek word translated into the english as destroy, is more accurately rendered destroyed fully,
then maybe you can see my point.
but i understand your definition and reasoning, as this is a topic i have studied before.
I believe otherwise.
that is because it is like the original hard copy.
i did, and was not impressed with yours, which is why i commented.
What do you see around here all the time?i see it around here all the time.
You have some personal issues you need to work through.it might use the strong's numbering system, but it's not the Strong's.
Your reply here tells me you did't go to my sight or compare word for word anything. There is no discussion about any details of difference.really?
OK so you think I totally clueless and ingnorant.i didn't say that it was wrong...i said it was not the Strong's definition.
Go back an look like you said you did.post yours again and well see.
what ever is left of "us" after "flesh death" goes back to God.DT 12:23 For the soul is the blood.
some call that spirit/breath, some call that soul.
The 'soul' is the physical life of the person, or the whole living person itself. You will not find souls in heaven nor will you find 'soul' meaning spirit or breath.
i think you need to understand the way that words can have more than one meaning and/or context.'Nephesh' is always linked to the body or the blood, whereas spirit is breath and is the 'breath of life'. You need to understand what the Hebrews meant by 'spirit' or 'soul' without reading into scripture another definition.
Yous said"is to be" which is distorting scripture where Paul stated "and to be".1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.so while we are at home in this body (the flesh), we are absent from the Lord.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight; )
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
and if we are absent from this flesh body, we will be present with the Lord.
i don't see your objection.
grave means what? an analogy for flesh death...I explained it without contradicting Jesus' own words where he clearly stated that we will be in the grave when he comes back (John 5:28-29)
i did not quote that scripture this morning...but rather recited from memory.yes it does, because you make it sound like Paul is going to be instantly in heaven when I explained what he meant in the light of 1 Corinthians 15, John 5:28-29, John 6:40, Daniel 12:2.
sorry about the and to is thing.
was not meant. my bad
but it does not change the jist of the chapter.
that is not what Paul is stating.No one is immortal automatcally, immortality is a gift (Romans 6:23) so why does Paul say we should put on immortality in 1 Corinthians 15?
and i agree that that day and the general resurrection has not happened yet.
if it had, the righteous dead would be walking the earth again.
that is the resurrection
resurrection is for life on earth again, not for life in heaven.
...
sure they are....
just not their flesh bodies, and not here on earth at this time.
but in heaven, sure....
see Luke16
see Mat22
see Rev's 5/6/12/19/22
their flesh body is. but the rest of them is not.
so, all that have died in the flesh, will here His voice and rise to life here again.
the "rising" is in relation to life on the earth again, as they had been before,
not up to heaven.
no.
all dead exist in heaven today, until the resurrection where the righteous return with Him from heaven and are raised.
see 1Thes4.
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.their flesh never gets raised...
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
it is their spiritual body/heavenly body (or soul), that is brought here and raised here by Christ.
that spiritual/heavenly body that the dead exist in, in heaven today, is incorruptible like the angels.
and immortal if they are faithfull to God.
'asleep' is in context of life on earth. it is a nice way to say dead....because we as Christians do not think that the dead are truly dead, because we believe they will live again.You misquote 1 thessalonians 4:13, because the dead cannot be in 2 places at once, and Paul is stating they are asleep (inline with Job 14:10-12, Psalm 146:4, Dan 12:2) before they are raised.
but the scripture says that God will bring with Him those that are asleep in Christ.Paul is not teaching a dual jnature, but you have to understand that Christ will raise us up out of the grave and then we are brought with him into the air to the new Jerusalem, not bringing 'souls' (which there are no biblical references to support that view anywhere) down, to somehow connect them to theor resurrection body. It simply does not happen that way.
it doesn't matter what you see in Luke 16. The story is easily followed.You quoted Luke 16. It is a parable and I see no word 'soul' (psuche) in that passage and I suggest you look into why it is not literal.
some of them have.The Rev quotes have not happened yet!!!
NOPE! I provided discussion and you simply repeat the same exact mantra which shows me that you indeed don't understand and have no evidence prolly cause your source hasn't give you more. Go back and ask him so you can paste it in.
yes, because i already answered it.
you simply disagree that destroy fully means annihilate.
plus...speaking of the flesh death....
The above quote has no meaning to me without looking it up. And it certianly has no meaning for the lurker looking for the truth who simply won't get involved here. This conversation we're having is all the example I need.6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
I think you need to read the stroy you're ta;lking about.they could see each other and talk to each other.
I regretfully have to inform you that isn't necessairly so. Personal responses here are looked down on. I've eve gotten in trouble for using the word you in a response to the person I was addressing. When I'm talking specifically and exclusively to you rest assured you'll know and understand.good for it...lol.
ps. when you are replying to me, then you are focused specifically on my comments....
you are making a mistake, and i am correcting you.
say thanks and move on.
Well I'll say this for you - You certianly have nerve responding to me after telling me to leave. You're a real gem.[/color]
i did...i presented you with the correct Strong's definition.
if you wish to also use a webster's, go for it.
if it is at odds witht he Strong's then look out.
So exactly how does it mean will which I covered in my response if you care to read it. BTW I'm just lazy and didn't bother to change the font size and bold.i have given it multiple times.
it means can, and that there is a possibility.
it does not mean won't.
Where? Please show it. I've already discussed is able and can. You say that means does and did and will do. How is this?maybe you should establish that it does not occure, since the verse , and more, clearly says that it does.
Once again I highlighted and bolded for you in a different color what the case is. It no where says does.sure there is...
fearing God instead of man, because He is able to fully destroy (as the greek defines it) your soul in hell, is a pretty good proof IMO.
I'm sorry I didn't realize the issue raised by the thread was a matter of when.since the event in question has not happened yet, and it is a warning, the wording was used as it was.
That is clearly not what I said. You got hung up on the personal pronoun I use referring to me. I regret not stating it in PC speech.ummmm...don't you wanna live forever? that's a great threat...
this sentence above belongs to me and you didn't get it in quotes.The wicked rejoice at non existence.
Now there is an amazing double speak remark.says who? some do.
It is you that has the issue, so show it. I'm not going to address the rest of your post.are you serious? dude, it's outright different.
I don't think that was the purpose of Jesus' statement at all.in this context, yes...because we are talking about the possibility of someone's very soul going to hell and what happens to the soul in hell. it is fully destroyed there, what ever that means.
the spirit returns "to God who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7)
Psalm 104:29b thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to dust. (body and soul)
The difference between spirit and soul are not being discerned.
the spirit returns "to God who gave it" (Ecc. 12:7)
Psalm 104:29b thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to dust. (body and soul)
The difference between spirit and soul are not being discerned.
So Patience,
What is the spirit of man? What does it do?
well, what ever is left of us after flesh death, returns to God.Only for the righteous.
as I have repeatedly posted in this thread, 1Thes4 shows that the dead return here with Christ, as He brings the dead here with Him.Oly applies to those who entered heaven and the wicked or non Christian didn't go there upon death.
and as I have posted before, Mat22, Luk16, Rev5/6/12/17/19 all show the dead in heaven doing things...speaking....
to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Only for a select few. IOW Jesus doesn't bring the non believer from heaven because the didn't go there in the first place.
na, it's just that i'd like to be understood properlyWhat does that mean to you really?_
I do have a good idea what you think it means However what ever I say prolly will be argued about so I need you to say what it means. I have first hadn dealing with this issue.
i know of millions, literally....not all by name, lol...sure, but it is not so nice for them on their side.You are the first ever to tell me that the rich man is in heaven begging for his tongue to be cooled with a mere drop of water. How interesting. I certainly don't know anyone else with this opinion.
ask the rich man of Luke16
the rich manif you really wanna go where he is....ok then...Where who is?
I thought you said all went to heaven.
i'm sure you'd like the good side...it's the not so good side that we were discussing.Surely you're not ask if I want to got to heaven a place of bliss?
maybe i should have said your mis-understanding of my perspective.well, it's from someone's mis-perspective.How many perspectives are we dealing with here? I thought it was only yours and mine. You didn't say anything leading me to believe something else. I spoke about my perspective that you responded to.
don't know how you could come up with that from my posts....lol
Luke16, where the rich man is.well, where are Abraham and Lazarus?I've never heard that there was an undesirable neighborhood in heaven. Would love to see some Scriptural support for this idea. Should be interesting.
in heaven right?
but they are on the good side of the gulf.
if they can see and hear each other, then what??where is the rich man if He can see Abraham and Lazarus,Beats me but doesn't sound like the same place.
and even talk to them???
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