What is damnation?

FineLinen · Oct 24, 2005

A couple of questions:

1. What is damnation?

2. According to the Scriptures, are there degrees of damnation?

3. Are the elect first-fruits of the Father's prevenient grace subject to damnation? Does damnation begin at the House of God?

[move]The Father willed through Christ to reconcile the universe once more unto Himself, and so to restore all things whatsoever and wheresoever they be. -Dr. John Lightfoot-[/move]

buddy mack · Oct 24, 2005

FineLinen said:
A couple of questions:

1. What is damnation?
2. According to the Scriptures, are there degrees of damnation? 3. Are the elect first-fruits of the Father's prevenient grace subject to damnation? Does damnation begin at the House of God?

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Reason #9, Why i love Mormonism. There really isn't No Damnation. Damnation is nothing more than a point in which you stop progressing. For me this means, i am goin to get into Telestial heaven through the back gate.

FineLinen · Oct 24, 2005

buddy mack said:
Reason #9, Why i love Mormonism. There really isn't No Damnation. Damnation is nothing more than a point in which you stop progressing. For me this means, i am goin to get into Telestial heaven through the back gate.

Buddy: you will may very well only get into "telestial heaven" by way of the back gate. And when you arrive at your desired location, you will be very much alone!

Telestial=

http://www.onelook.com/?w=telestial&ls=a

Friends, cast your idol into the furnace. Melt your mammon down, coin him up, make God's money of him, and send him out to do God's work. Make of him cups to carry the gift of God, the water of life, through the world. -George MacDonald-

EchoPneuma · Oct 24, 2005

FineLinen said:
A couple of questions:

1. What is damnation?

2. According to the Scriptures, are there degrees of damnation?

3. Are the elect first-fruits of the Father's prevenient grace subject to damnation? Does damnation begin at the House of God?

[move]The Father willed through Christ to reconcile the universe once more unto Himself, and so to restore all things whatsoever and wheresoever they be. -Dr. John Lightfoot-[/move]

The 7 years of tribulation when the Jews had to endure the wrath and "fire" of God was symbolic of the 7 thousand years that a soul must spend in the lake of fire before it is reconciled back to God. So "damnation" lasts 7 thousand years.

marvmax · Oct 24, 2005

buddy mack;
I just want to point out to be sure you don't miss it, it looks like FineLinen thinks you believe in the Telestial Kingdom. He must think you're a Mormon

FineLinen · Oct 25, 2005

EchoPneuma said:
The 7 years of tribulation when the Jews had to endure the wrath and "fire" of God was symbolic of the 7 thousand years that a soul must spend in the lake of fire before it is reconciled back to God. So "damnation" lasts 7 thousand years.

What is damnation, Echo, and does damnation apply to all mankind, including the elect? So: "damnation lasts 7 thousand years"?, I assume you are basing that on the one day= one thousand year equation.

The purpose of God by the first-fruits or first-born, is to save and bless the later-born...This glorious truth, though the very essence of the gospel, which announces salvation to the world through the promised seed of Abraham, is even yet so little seen by many of Abraham's seed, that not a few of the children of promise speak and act as if Christ and His Body only should be saved, instead of rejoicing that they are also the appointed means of saving others. Even of the elect, few see that they are elect to the birthright, not to be blessed only, but to be a blessing; as first-born with Christ to share in the glory of kingship and priesthood with Him, not only to rule and intercede for their younger and later-born brethren, but to avenge their blood, and to raise up seed to the dead, and in and through Christ, their life and head, to redeem their lost inheritance. Thank God that if the elect know not thier double portion, God knows and keeps it for them, and will in due time, spite of their blindness, fulfill His purpose in and by them. But surely it is a reproach to the heirs, that they know not their Father's purpose, and that through not knowing it, they bear so imperfect a testimony as to His goodwill to all his fallen creatures. -Andrew Jukes-

[move] For the time is come that damnation must begin at the house of God.[/move]

EchoPneuma · Oct 25, 2005

FineLinen said:
What is damnation, Echo, and does damnation apply to all mankind, including the elect?

Damnation is separation from God, torment, weeping and gnashing of teeth, outer darkness, destruction, etc. (All the ways the bible describes it).

It only applies to those who reject Jesus.....so it wouldn't refer to the elect.

So: "damnation lasts 7 thousand years"?, I assume you are basing that on the one day= one thousand equation.

It's just a theory of mine. We all know the scripture in 2 Peter. The tribulation for the apostate Jews lasted 7 years from 66AD until 73AD and was a time of fire, destruction, wrath, punishment etc. I believe it was the physical "shadow" (just like all the OT shadows and types) of the spiritual "fire" of punishment that awaits unbelievers in hell. Since the physical Jewish "hell" lasted 7 years and then was over and a new "Israel" emerged......then I believe that the spiritual fire of hell will only last 7 thousands years for an apostate and they will emerge new.

Just an idea. I have no scripture to set it in concrete. But it fits the biblical pattern of OT types and shadows. Otherwise, what was the OT "shadow" of the spiritual reality of hell? Paul said "first comes the physical, then comes the spiritual". What would have been the physical OT "type" to show the spiritual reality of hell, if it wasn't the 7 years of fiery torment and destruction that the apostate Jews endured before they were wiped out.

Like I said....just a theory.

[move]TIME FOR JOY TO BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD[/MOVE]

FineLinen · Oct 25, 2005

EchoPneuma said:
Damnation is separation from God, torment, weeping and gnashing of teeth, outer darkness, destruction, etc. (All the ways the bible describes it).

It only applies to those who reject Jesus.....so it wouldn't refer to the elect.

If, as you claim, damnation is separation from God encompassing torment and weeping and gnashing of teeth, and "only applies to those who reject Jesus", can you explain to me/us what the Scriptures mean when they declare that "the time is come that damnation must begin at the house of God." Furthermore, the Apostle James writes.....

My brethren, be not many masters/teachers, knowing that we shall receive the greater damnation.

[move]In low theologies, hell is invariably the deepest truth, and the love of God is not as deep as hell. -George MacDonald[/move]

The Deepest Hell

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/l/o/loveofgo.htm

EchoPneuma · Oct 25, 2005

FineLinen said:
If, as you claim, damnation is separation from God encompassing torment and weeping and gnashing of teeth, and "only applies to those who reject Jesus", can you explain to me/us what the Scriptures mean when they declare that "the time is come that damnation must begin at the house of God."

Huh? What scripture are you referring to? This one?

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Where do you get "damnation" from the verse?

Furthermore, the Apostle James writes.....My brethren, be not many masters/teachers, knowing that we shall receive the greater damnation.

Are you talking about this verse?

James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Again, where do you get damnation from that verse?

What exactly is the point you are trying to make?

FineLinen · Oct 25, 2005

EchoPneuma said:
Huh? What scripture are you referring to? This one?

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Where do you get "damnation" from the verse?

[/size][/i]

Are you talking about this verse?

James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. Again, where do you get damnation from that verse?

Bingo, Echo! The word for damnation in the Koine is krima. Take a few moments and research what the word is in James 3:1 and in 1 Peter 4:17. The House of God is where krima begins! And, in writing to his brethren, James advised to be not many masters/teachers (didaskalos) knowing that we shall receive greater krima.

Greater= meizon= greater/ larger/ stronger.

Damnation= krima

I hold the restoration of all souls; because having myself been the chief of sinners,....God, through Jesus Christ, by the efficacy of his holy spirit...granted me the mercy and the pardon of my sins, and had plucked me as a brand out of hell, so that I could not have a doubt but the whole world would be saved by the same power. -Dr. George de Benneville-

[move]You cannot come to Me unless the Father makes you want to come. No man can come to me unless the Father drag off, impel, lead , draw him.[/move]

buddy mack · Oct 25, 2005

marvmax said:
buddy mack;
I just want to point out to be sure you don't miss it, it looks like FineLinen thinks you believe in the Telestial Kingdom. He must think you're a Mormon

secret agent mormon

A New Dawn · Oct 25, 2005

EchoPneuma said:
The 7 years of tribulation when the Jews had to endure the wrath and "fire" of God was symbolic of the 7 thousand years that a soul must spend in the lake of fire before it is reconciled back to God. So "damnation" lasts 7 thousand years.

.... ummmm................. Is there a scripture reference to this?

Dottie · Oct 25, 2005

EchoPneuma said:
Damnation is separation from God, torment, weeping and gnashing of teeth, outer darkness, destruction, etc. (All the ways the bible describes it).

It only applies to those who reject Jesus.....so it wouldn't refer to the elect.

It's just a theory of mine. We all know the scripture in 2 Peter. The tribulation for the apostate Jews lasted 7 years from 66AD until 73AD and was a time of fire, destruction, wrath, punishment etc. I believe it was the physical "shadow" (just like all the OT shadows and types) of the spiritual "fire" of punishment that awaits unbelievers in hell. Since the physical Jewish "hell" lasted 7 years and then was over and a new "Israel" emerged......then I believe that the spiritual fire of hell will only last 7 thousands years for an apostate and they will emerge new.

Just an idea. I have no scripture to set it in concrete. But it fits the biblical pattern of OT types and shadows. Otherwise, what was the OT "shadow" of the spiritual reality of hell? Paul said "first comes the physical, then comes the spiritual". What would have been the physical OT "type" to show the spiritual reality of hell, if it wasn't the 7 years of fiery torment and destruction that the apostate Jews endured before they were wiped out.

Like I said....just a theory.

Huh? How can one be a Preterist and not realize that all the Old Testament types and shadows have been fulfilled?

What do you mean by "OT shadow of the spiritual reality of hell"?

Whew! Echo, You've got 'me head 'a spinning. But I still love you anyway.

EchoPneuma · Oct 25, 2005

FineLinen said:
Bingo, Echo! The word for damnation in the Koine is krima. Take a few moments and research what the word is in James 3:1 and in 1 Peter 4:17. The House of God is where krima begins! And, in writing to his brethren, James advised to be not many masters/teachers (didaskalos) knowing that we shall receive greater krima.

Greater= meizon= greater/ larger/ stronger.

Damnation= krima

Whoa there FL. "KRIMA" does not mean damnation except in rare cases. The context has to determine when those cases are. In the above referenced scriptures it means "judgement" not "damnation". The bible says "there is now NO condemnation (damnation) for those who are in Christ Jesus".

Again, I still don't know what your point is. Clarify please?

I hold the restoration of all souls; because having myself been the chief of sinners,....God, through Jesus Christ, by the efficacy of his holy spirit...granted me the mercy and the pardon of my sins, and had plucked me as a brand out of hell, so that I could not have a doubt but the whole world would be saved by the same power. -Dr. George de Benneville-

[move]You cannot come to Me unless the Father makes you want to come. No man can come to me unless the Father drag off, impel, lead , draw him.[/move][/QUOTE]

EchoPneuma · Oct 25, 2005

Jenda said:
.... ummmm................. Is there a scripture reference to this?

Nope, I totally pulled it out of my...ummm....posterior. It's just a theory of mine...but without scriptural basis I can't put it in concrete. It's just that it fits with the biblical pattern of OT types and shadows finding their fulfillment in the new covenant age. I can't find ANY OT "shadow" of the spiritual reality of hell except the 7 year tribulation of "firey hell" that the Jews endured ending when Jesus destroyed them completely. Since their "fiery hell" ended after 7 years and the new jerusalem emerged, I believe that the "fiery hell" of unregenerate men will also end after a period of time (perhaps 7000 years) and they will emerge.

Just a theory.

EchoPneuma · Oct 25, 2005

Dottie said:
Huh? How can one be a Preterist and not realize that all the Old Testament types and shadows have been fulfilled?

Oh, I DO believe they have all been fulfilled. To the letter.

What do you mean by "OT shadow of the spiritual reality of hell"?

All new covenant spiritual invisible realities had an OT physical "shadow" or "type" that forshadowed it. I can't find any OT physical "type" for the spiritual reality of hell....EXCEPT the 7 years of tribulation that the Jews endured that was a "fiery wrath" of God upon them for their rejection of Jesus. If that was the "type" and "shadow" of the spiritual reality of hell.....then there must be a correlation as to the length of time. At least that's the way I see it.

Whew! Echo, You've got 'me head 'a spinning. But I still love you anyway.

Sorry muh dear

FineLinen · Oct 25, 2005

EchoPneuma said:
Whoa there FL. "KRIMA" does not mean damnation except in rare cases. The context has to determine when those cases are. In the above referenced scriptures it means "judgement" not "damnation". The bible says "there is now NO condemnation (damnation) for those who are in Christ Jesus".

Again, I still don't know what your point is. Clarify please?

I hold the restoration of all souls; because having myself been the chief of sinners,....God, through Jesus Christ, by the efficacy of his holy spirit...granted me the mercy and the pardon of my sins, and had plucked me as a brand out of hell, so that I could not have a doubt but the whole world would be saved by the same power. -Dr. George de Benneville-

[move]You cannot come to Me unless the Father makes you want to come. No man can come to me unless the Father drag off, impel, lead , draw him.[/move]

Echo: Actually the Bible says there is now no condemnation (katakrima) to those who are in Christ Jesus....and qualifies the statement with the rest of the verse which continues, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Krima does not mean damnation in ANY case! The fact is that krima should always be translated as condemnation or judgement....always! Krima applies to all mankind, including the household of faith, the brethren, to whom St. James wrote regarding "greater damnation"; and in fact is the very place where the krima of the Lord begins. Krima is krima is krima!

http://www.mf.no/bibelprog/vines?word=¯t0000642

We now come to the answer for question #1. What is damnation?

What is damnation?

[size=+1]<B-1,Noun,2917,krima>[/size]
[size=+1] [/size]

Denotes (a) "the sentence pronounced, a verdict, a condemnation, the decision resulting from an investigation," e.g., Mark 12:40; Luke 23:40; 1 Tim. 3:6; Jude 1:4; (b) "the process of judgment leading to a decision," 1 Pet. 4:17 ("judgment"), where krisis (see No. 3, below) might be expected. In Luke 24:20, "to be condemned" translates the phrase eis krima, "unto condemnation" (i.e., unto the pronouncement of the sentence of "condemnation"). For the rendering "judgment," see, e.g., Rom. 11:33; 1 Cor. 11:34; Gal. 5:10; Jas. 3:1. In these (a) the process leading to a decision and (b) the pronouncement of the decision, the verdict, are to be distinguished. In 1 Cor. 6:7 the word means a matter for judgment, a lawsuit. See JUDGMENT.

EchoPneuma · Oct 25, 2005

FineLinen said:
Echo: Actually the Bible says there is now no condemnation (katakrima) to those who are in Christ Jesus....and qualifies the statement with the rest of the verse which continues, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Krima does not mean damnation in ANY case! The fact is that krima should always be translated as condemnation or judgement....always! Krima applies to all mankind, including the household of faith, the brethren, to whom St. James wrote regarding "greater damnation"; and in fact is the very place where the krima of the Lord begins. Krima is krima is krima!

http://www.mf.no/bibelprog/vines?word=¯t0000642

We now come to the answer for question #1. What is damnation?

What is damnation?

[size=+1]<B-1,Noun,2917,krima>[/size]

You aren't making any sense. I will ask for the third time (and this will be my last) just what is it you are trying to say?

FineLinen · Oct 25, 2005

gort · Oct 25, 2005

Finelinen, that picture......it's....it's full of stars!

What is damnation?

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