What is Creationism?
- Thread starter Arikay
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Dont we have to "learn the language" of the bible, to read it and discuss it with you?
Whats the difference?
Whats the difference?
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Mechanical Bliss
Secrecy and accountability cannot co-exist.
So you don't think there's been any significant advancement in the biological sciences with respect to the theory of evolution in over twenty years?
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Micaiah
Well-Known Member
To claim that your theory has not been falsified, and that your theory has evidence to support it are very different. People have many theories, which have never been falsified, but that is because no one knows anything about them. Just because something hasn't been falsified doesn't mean that it hasn't been proven scientifically.
Actually my reading indicates there is a significant amount of data in the fossil record that falsifies the notion that man comes from apes. We'll leave aside all the false and fraudulent claims made by evolutionists regarding supposed ape-man transitional fossils. The problem is that the wrong kind of bones keep popping up in the wrong places. We get human bones (modern homosapien) for example that are several million years old. Trouble is that predates Australopithecines, Homo erectus, and archaic forms of Homo sapiens. One day when I get some time we can talk about that also.
Let me be clear, I don't not wish to enter into a debate on this issue at present. For now I'll be content to say the evolutionist doesn't have adequate evidence to prove for example that man comes from apes. Do you agree, or are you asserting the evidence we have is adequate, and evolution (macro if you wish) is no longer theory, it is scientific fact. I'd like to hear a clear bold statement if that is the case.
If that is your considered position and you believe you have evidence to support that position I'd be interested to see the evidence. Can you suggest catalogues of human evolution that clearly demonstrate the progress from ape to man, showing each step along the evolutionary path.
Do you know of any catalogues of such evidence. I'd be interested to see references. (Ones I can view on the net).
If scientists do not have this evidence and cannot show all the required steps for evolution, it is still theory. It has not been proved. I don't feel compelled to falsify such ideas, but simply to state the truth given in Scripture regarding creation.
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Micaiah
Well-Known Member
David Pilbean on whether man evolved from gibbons, chimps orangutangs:
"The fossil record has been elastic enough, the expectations sufficiently robust, to accomodate almost any story"
["Patterns of Hominoid Evolution" Anscestors the Hard Evidence 1985]
If you know of recent discoveries that make these statements incorrect, I'm listening.
"The fossil record has been elastic enough, the expectations sufficiently robust, to accomodate almost any story"
["Patterns of Hominoid Evolution" Anscestors the Hard Evidence 1985]
If you know of recent discoveries that make these statements incorrect, I'm listening.
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I haven't claimed anything. You have claimed that the evidence used by scientists for the evolutionary relationship between man and the other apes is insufficient. I'd hope you'd make an attempt to justify this claim.
But if a hypothesis is repeatedly tested and fails to be falsified and new evidence verifies it predictions then it becomes a theory.
What reading is that? What data are you talking about? Remember, before you can claim that the evidence is insufficient you must first establish what that evidence is.
Care to back that up?
What is your source on this?
And I'll be content to say that the historian doesn't have adequate evidence to prove for example that the holocaust happened.
I'll do that after you answer my requests. You are the one asserting things here, not me.
Why do you need me to show you the evidence if you are already so familiar with it that you know it is insufficient? If in truth, you are not familiar with the evidence, then come out and admit as much. Then we can go on to the next part of our conversation.
Please tell me the chapter and verse that discusses the scientific evidence for the evolution of man? Otherwise, what you have been talking about these last few posts is not a "truth" given in scripture. While you are at it, please find me the floodgates in the sky.
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Micaiah, have you read this book or are you simply cuting and pasting from creationist literature? If you have not read the book and are simply copying from some website, you need to give the source of your quotation. Otherwise you are plaigarizing and are being a false witness. Have you read the work in question and can vouch that you have presented it in accurate context?
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JohnR7
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The difference is we can begin to teach the Bible to one year olds. They can sing some wonderful Bible songs and march while they sing. Our sunday school program tries to bring people up to a 6 th to a 8 th grade level, but we can work with someone that functions at a third grade level.
I see to many people with Phd's in some branch of science, but they can not even function in theology at a third grade level.
I personally do not have any interest in science beyond the 8 th grade level of understanding. Most people in this world would be doing good to get up to the 8 th grade level.
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Well, Hitler could also teach kids how to sing songs and march in straight lines while singing about the death of the impure.
Is that a good thing?
Have you read the book "1984" You should, its a good book.
Well, 8th grade science is rather small. Unfortunatly education is becoming a must in society. to get a good job, many higher level skills are becoming required more and more. Those who are not educated up to the standards of everyone else, wont get the same jobs, pretty soon, the uneducated will be flipping burgers and doing basic labor jobs like that. Basic high school science, can also keep people from killing themselves, with modern technology and chemistry.
Is that a good thing?
Have you read the book "1984" You should, its a good book.
Well, 8th grade science is rather small. Unfortunatly education is becoming a must in society. to get a good job, many higher level skills are becoming required more and more. Those who are not educated up to the standards of everyone else, wont get the same jobs, pretty soon, the uneducated will be flipping burgers and doing basic labor jobs like that. Basic high school science, can also keep people from killing themselves, with modern technology and chemistry.
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Mechanical Bliss
Secrecy and accountability cannot co-exist.
Well that's part of the problem. 8th grade-level science education, at least for me going to a reputable private school, included nothing more than human anatomy, cellular structure, and the classification of organisms from life sciences and how to tell the difference between granite and basalt as well as very basic information on the Earth in Earth sciences. The theory of evolution wasn't even introduced into the curriculum until 9th grade (high school). Atomic theory wasn't even covered very rigorously at all until high school chemistry. I don't even feel I had a significant understanding of the nature of gravity from a physical or geophysical standpoint until college or even most principles in chemistry (mostly quantum theory).
Science education at the 8th grade level doesn't amount to much.
Unfortunately that is not good enough.
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JohnR7
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There are a est. 6 billion people in this world. What percentage of those people can function at a 8 th grade level or higher in science? If you were actually to give them a proficiency test. You may only get 1% of the people to pass the test.
Maybe that is a part of why there is so much poverty.
For me I would think that a 8 th grade student could handle things like the theory of an expanding universe. Perhaps some basic information about our solar system.
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Micaiah
Well-Known Member
I think you have evaded the questions skilfully. Congratulations. But I also think that you would like to have the evidence to support the notion of evolution. I hope that some day you look for a catalogue of fossils. Let me know when you find one that provides irrefutable evidence for the evolution of man. I'm not holding my breath, and in the mean time, we'll keep refering to evolution as a theory.
If you are looking for the chapter and verse on evolution in the Bible, you will not find it for obvious reasons.
There are some things I cannot explain in Scripture. At present I am unable to define precisely what is meant by the flood gates of heaven. I remember your reference previously to the firmament between the waters above and waters below. I'm not sure how you think these are linked. I do not suggest a link. I have heard one theory that the universe is bounded by a layer of water. The author uses 'big bang' theory with different boundary conditions to those used by athiests, and comes up with some interesting results that seek to explain why we see starlight when the world was created 6000 years ago.
I once saw an interesting diagram that showed the was in which superheated steam from underground wells could have produced huge amounts of steam and vapour which are postulated to have caused the vast amounts of water needed for the flood. Maybe. Whatever the case, the rain that fell must have been heavy. It would have appeared to those who remained on earth outside the boat like the floodgates of heaven were opened.
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I have evaded no questions. I will answer your questions after you answer mine. After all I did ask mine first.
If you know so much about the evidence that you know it is insufficient, they you sould be able to provide a catalog for me, complete with reasons why it is insufficient. I have in the last couple of post asked you for sources for your claims. I am still waiting.
And yet you state that the evidence for evolution is insufficient and that is a truth from scripture. How can it be a truth given in scripture if scripture makes no such statement?
In Genesis 1, God creates the sky as a solid barrier against the waters of heaven, i.e. a dam. In Genesis 7 & 8, "floodgates of the sky" are mentioned. Floodgates are the parts of dams that allow water to be let out. The connection is obvious. If genesis is an accurate description of nature and history, then we should find that the sky is simply a dam with floodgates.
But according to creationists, the Bible is the inerrant Word of God isn't it? Why would He tell the people something He knew was false?
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So you think, that since the rest of the world is in poverty, you should not teach those who have a chance?
Lets say everyone stopped at 8th grade, what would that accomplish?
You skipped my question about people needing to interpret the bible. Along time ago, the bible was read in latin and only those who were rich and out of poverty could understand it, is this the right thing to do?
Lets say everyone stopped at 8th grade, what would that accomplish?
You skipped my question about people needing to interpret the bible. Along time ago, the bible was read in latin and only those who were rich and out of poverty could understand it, is this the right thing to do?
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Do a bit of reading and research. You will find lots and lots of evidence for evolution.
There will never be irrefutable evidence. Since there is a lot of evidence currently and its being refuted.
However, the bible isnt irrefutable proof either. nor is it evidence.
There will never be irrefutable evidence. Since there is a lot of evidence currently and its being refuted.
However, the bible isnt irrefutable proof either. nor is it evidence.
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Mechanical Bliss
Secrecy and accountability cannot co-exist.
I don't understand the point. We live in a part of the world where a higher level of education is attainable.
I agree. File that under the "earth science" I was talking about which was taught at the middle school level.
However, the theory of evolution or even basic genetics such as Mendel's experiments weren't part of the curriculum until after 8th grade. The processes working on the Earth and the age of the earth determined by radioactive decay experiments and paleomagnetics aren't part of the curriculum until after 8th grade. Mathematical and statistical models used in understanding the theory of evolution and certain geochemical theories aren't part of the curriculum until after 8th grade--in fact, in some cases it requires a post-basic calculus education in multivariable calculus and differential equations to even describe the laws of thermodynamics quantitatively (heat flow, for example).
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Nathan Poe
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Indoctrination works best when you start early. Fill their heads with Dogma before their critical thinking skills develop and they're yours for life. Why else would someone teach Sunday School to one-year-olds?
Most of them also cannot juggle, cook brownies, or play the harmonica. Assuming you have a point, what is it?
Indeed. An 8th grade level of scientific knowledge might actually teach people to doubt 5000 years of superstition and ancient mythology.
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