What is belief?

[filly]

This is a tangent to my other post made a few minutes earlier, "Salvation and a non-literal view of Genesis." What is meant by belief? I believe that the Earth is round. Why? I've seen pictures. I believe that water will freeze if left in the freezer. Why? I can put a glass of water in the freezer and check on it in an hour. And on and on and on.

At church, when my pastor talks about salvation and puts it into simple terms that everyone can understand, he uses the ABC's. Admit you're a sinner. Believe that God sent his son, Jesus, and that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Confess that Christ is Lord and that you believe in him and want to be saved. When belief is used in this way, it's almost like a command..."Go to your room," "Eat your breakfast," "Go brush your teeth." So, he's telling me to "Believe in Jesus." Ok, what does that truly mean? Is belief an ingrained, involuntary view, or is it a decision...a mindset that you put yourself in regardless of doubts, fears, etc?

You see, I battle tremendously with science and the Bible. Some things literal, some things allegorical, creation/evolution, radiometric dating, blah, blah, blah. These things produce a level of doubt in my mind that I can not erase. So, do I believe in God? I want to more than anything in the world. How's that for an answer? I guess I'm an agnostic in that I don't know. Now, I can hold the viewpoint that God created the world, he created man, and he sent his son to save us. In other words, I can voluntarily decide that I'm going to hold to this mindset in the face of the many doubts and questions I have. Is that belief? Like in the paragraph above, I'm "commanding" myself to hold these things as true, even though I don't know.

It's odd for me. I say I'm an agnostic, but I go to church, and I live my life like the Bible says a Christian should (as best I can). Now, I don't even feel that I'm a Christian yet because of the things I just wrote above. Yet, I feel remorseful when I have sinned. I consciously make an effort not to curse, not to look at other women (I'm married), to raise my son in a Christian environment, etc. It's as though I'm jumping to part B when I haven't even finished part A.

So, when do I know if I have "belief" in God?

 

[nephilimiyr]

So, when do I know if I have "belief" in God?

When you know that you know, that you know, that you know, that He lives.

 

[Annabel Lee]

"Reason is our soul's left hand, Faith her right."
--John Donne

 

[dvd_holc]

I hope this helps you work through your walk with the Lord.


Hebrews 11:
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Hebrews 12:
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

Eph. 2:8-10
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Phil 4:4-9
4Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
8Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable— if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

Gal5:
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

I can expand upon this if you want.

 

[billwald]

You should know that the earth is roughly an oblate spheriod.

A belief is a conclusion based upon inconclusive knowledge or a metaphysical (or other) experience.

 

[filly]

I hope this helps you work through your walk with the Lord.


Hebrews 11:
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Hebrews 12:
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

Eph. 2:8-10
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Phil 4:4-9
4Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
8Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable— if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

Gal5:
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

I can expand upon this if you want.

thanks for the replies thus far (for the most part), but no one has addressed what belief is. that is my question. what constitutes belief? is it innate, in that you can't help it...you just believe. or can it be a mindset...aka "just believe" it is so.

 

[GraceInHim]

It's odd for me. I say I'm an agnostic, but I go to church, and I live my life like the Bible says a Christian should (as best I can). Now, I don't even feel that I'm a Christian yet because of the things I just wrote above. Yet, I feel remorseful when I have sinned. I consciously make an effort not to curse, not to look at other women (I'm married), to raise my son in a Christian environment, etc. It's as though I'm jumping to part B when I haven't even finished part A.

So, when do I know if I have "belief" in God?

No one is perfect, I had also doubts about certain things, but I do not think of them anymore, temptation always can happen, but you seem strong to know your faults and God knows what is deep in your mind. You seem as someone who knows right from wrong.

Someone without God is blinded as Jesus said; sure they also will find what we have.

Remember the Disciples in the storm, Jesus walked on the water, God seemed to say we will have a rough ride but a safe landing.

 

[Sabra]

filly:

A belief is something that I know to be true, even if I don't have all the evidence for it (or have no evidence for it). For example, I believe that our galaxy is somewhere near the middle of the universe, and only recently has there been new scientific evidence come to light to provide evidence for this assertion that I hold as "truth."

I also believe that they will make Halo 2 on the computer, even though I've heard no talk about it. Some believe in (know to be true, adhere to) evolution, even though there is much evidence against it, for another example.

How do I come to this definition? I personally believe that the term "belief" is interchangable with the term "faith." What is faith? To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for, to be certian of the things we cannot see (Hebrews 11:1). As I stated above, belief is to know something is true, even if we can't see it or have no evidence for it (for example, many Australian soccer - internationally, "football" - fans believed - that is, they knew even though the stats were against them - that the Socceroos would make it to the 2006 FIFA World Cup in Germany. Another way of putting it is that they had "faith" that the Socceroos would make it.

That's my opinion on belief anyway: belief = faith = being certain (sure, know to be true) of the things we cannot see. Others may have varying views.

Also, when a belief has been proven, you generally don't say, "I believe" rather than "It has been proven that...". Using your example, we don't say, "We believe [which implies unproven] that the Earth is round," we say, "We know [proven] the Earth is round."

How do you know if you believe in God? When you know [beyond all doubt] that He exists and is alive today, even though you may not be able to prove it. It's really an assertion that you hold to be true. When you adhere to Him and His commandments, when you learn to trust in Him, and have a relationship with Him.

A belief in Jesus is more than just realising that He existed when mentioned in the Bible. When mentioned in the Bible, "belief" in Jesus refers to adhere to, trust in, have a relationship with, and rely on, Jesus. Which is something that only you can do. You can't be forced into it, as Jesus knows your heart and He would know that you are not sincere.

Also, if you've really met Jesus, then your life should show it (which it sounds like you're trying). The only way that I can tell if you're a Christian (the only way that you can tell if I'm a Christian) is to look at the fruit of your life, in other words, you actions (James 2). Of course, we all fail at times, but I should be able to see that you are genuinely trying to become as Christ-like and consistent with your faith (your belief) as you can with the Holy Spirit's guidence.

I hope this helped you out, if you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask. Others may be able to provide their opinions on this matter as well.

 

[dvd_holc]

thanks for the replies thus far (for the most part), but no one has addressed what belief is. that is my question. what constitutes belief? is it innate, in that you can't help it...you just believe. or can it be a mindset...aka "just believe" it is so.

It is both innate because it is develop in subtle ways and not always visible to perceive and phyical because it develops certain responses within reality. Because it is of both natures (flesh and the spirit) intertwined, faith is can't be reduced to just a mindset or just a feeling. So then, our faith will give us a complete hope for the future, assurance in being, peace of the soul, and produce products of love.

 

[filly]

That's my opinion on belief anyway: belief = faith = being certain (sure, know to be true) of the things we cannot see. Others may have varying views.

How does one become certain of the things we cannot see?

How do you know if you believe in God? When you know [beyond all doubt] that He exists and is alive today, even though you may not be able to prove it. It's really an assertion that you hold to be true. When you adhere to Him and His commandments, when you learn to trust in Him, and have a relationship with Him.

How do I know that He exists and is alive today?

A belief in Jesus is more than just realising that He existed when mentioned in the Bible. When mentioned in the Bible, "belief" in Jesus refers to adhere to, trust in, have a relationship with, and rely on, Jesus. Which is something that only you can do. You can't be forced into it, as Jesus knows your heart and He would know that you are not sincere.

See, this is where I think I'm backwards. I try to adhere to, trust in, and have a relationship with Jesus, but I'm not at all certain that God exists. I can readily believe and accept the story of Jesus' life and his purpose. I just have a hard time with what Genesis says and what we know today. The conflicts I have with the Old Testament cause me to question the New Testament. In other words, if the foundation of something isn't true, than neither can the rest of it.

Some say that it doesn't matter what you make of the Genesis account, because all you need is to believe in Jesus and the resurrection to be saved. That's great, but I can't overlook the opening chapter of the Bible and dismiss it just so I can get to the "good stuff" later on.

I don't know. Why would God inspire the writing of the creation account, the story of how we got here, to be so contradictory to what we know today? Some will respond that it's an allegory, especially Theistic Evolutionists. But why would he choose to use evolution over I don't know how many millions of years to create us? Especially when the Bible doesn't even hint to that. So, if the creation account is so "flawed," then I don't see how I can make up an excuse for it so that I can move on to the story of Jesus.

I have all these doubts/questions, yet I know for 100% certainty that I will leave my house today in a few minutes and walk out the door trying to live my life as close as possible to how God wants me to. What's going on here?

 

[frumanchu]

Saving faith is composed of three dynamic elements:

Notitia (knowledge) – this refers to the content of our faith. The content must be correct for the faith to be valid. I can believe strongly and sincerely in Santa Claus, but the faith is ultimately false because the object of the faith is not true. True Christian faith does not require that we have exhaustive knowledge of the full content of the Gospel, but it does require that we have knowledge of the true basic fundamentals.

Assensus (theoretical assent) – this refers to intellectual assent to the truth of the notitia. It is the difference between saying “history says that Neil Armstrong landed on the moon” and “I believe Neil Armstrong landed on the moon.” Assensus and notitia alone are NOT sufficient for saving faith (James 2:19). The demons know that Jesus is the Son of God and acknowledge the truth of that fact.

Fiducia (trust or practical assent) – this moves beyond possession of the facts and agreement with one’s “head” to a practical trust in one’s “heart.” It is a combination of love with trust, inclination and agreement. Consider the following example:

During the late 19th century a French tightrope walker made quite a stir by repeatedly crossing over Niagara Falls on rope stretched between the two banks of the river. Reportedly, he once singled out a member of the audience before one of these "trips" and asked him several questions along the following lines:

"Sir", he asked, " do you believe I can walk over the falls on this little rope?"
"Sure", answered the man, "I've seen you do it before."
"And do you also believe that I could push this wheelbarrow across?"
"Yes, I do."
"And do you also believe that I could do it with a man sitting in the wheelbarrow?"
"Yeah, I'm positive you could."
"Then, kind sir, would you mind assisting me by getting into the wheelbarrow?"
"Not on your life!", answered the man.

This man knew he had walked across the tightrope before (notitia) and believed he could do it again with the wheelbarrow (assensus), but stopped short of putting his trust in that theoretical assent (fiducia).

 

[tommiegrant]

filly, Sounds to melike the Holy Spirit is dealing with you. If I might let me ask you a few questions so that i may btter be able to TRY and provide answers to you.
1. Do you believe that all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God?
( the glory of God= perfection or in others words Jesus)
2. Do you have issues with the account of the life ,death,and resurrection of Jesus?
3. Are you really open to answers to your problems?

To help with your Genesis issues let me suggest that you check out three DVD's
1. The Priveledged Planet
2. icons of Evelution
3. Unlocking the mysteries of life
I think theinformation included on these will help you. These are not religious in nature but scientific. i got my copies from CRI there adress is equip.org, you my also find other good resources at this site to help with your problem another good source would be Christian Ministry International the ministry of Dr. Ron Carlson.

In Christ, Tom

 

[rstrats]

Sabra,



re: "To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the things we cannot see (Hebrews 11:1)."

What translation is this from? This is the first rendering of Hebrews 11:1 that I've seen that makes any sense.

 

[DaveS]

What is belief?

Hmmmm.. that is one of the great unknowns in a way as this word means so many things to different people. Belief is really what you want it to be.

In your case, it would seem that you have difficulty accepting the beliefs of others that are being presented as fact to you? For example, your pastor with the ABC's. Well, this is quite a dangerous time for you faith wise and is a road quite a few of us have taken.

What you are experiencing is 'liberalitis' D). It is something I also suffered from. This is when you realise that the doctrines you have been traditionally taught just don't seem right anymore. In your case it is creationism Vs. evolution. You are in a way, moving along the Christian scale to a place that suits you, almost like spiritual puberty. However, as I mentioned before, this is a dangerous time as it can sometimes lead straight to atheism or agnosticism if not 'treated' correctly. A good example is if you get people being judgemental and saying that your new beliefs are not right etc. This can often make you lose faith in Christians which can lead to losing faith in Christ.

The problem is, it is often difficult to deal with. I nearly dropped out of Christianity a few times from doubts (some would say I have). But in the end the only advice I can give is to get a good set of ear muffs against some harsh criticisms (as in bad remarks etc) you may get although at the same time, it is good to listen to criticism to find your place. When you do, I can assure you that you will be happy .

Hope this made sense, PM me if you want,

Dave

P.S - You may like to bounce your ideas about in the liberal boards (congregational and discussion) - they were invaluable when I was finding my 'place'.

P.P.S - Went completely off-topic there, my 'belief' is that love is belief BTW.

P.P.P.S - As an extra note (lol) you can also experience 'conservatitis' where you move to the more conservative end of the scale from liberal.

 

[BigNorsk]

It seems to me filly that you are the product of a system that has things a little mixed up and now when you are starting to realize it you are doubting everything. It might not be what has been taught, it might be that you have misunderstood, but it might be that you have rightly understood the teachings and they are off a bit.

For instance, it seems that you are saying that our foundation is the Bible and if you have one single question about the Bible then you can't trust any of it and your whole belief in God crumbles.

Actually, the church's one foundation is Jesus Christ. Our high view of scripture comes about because of his high view of scripture. Don't flip it and put the Bible over Christ, we don't worship the Bible, we worship God. The Bible is important because it is God's Word, but the Bible without God is nothing, whereas God without the Bible is still God.

It also seems to me you have been involved in some fundamentalist group that must basically stick everything into two groups. Totally essential and totally unnecessary. It sounds as though you have been taught that you must believe in a literal 6 day creation and when you are questioning that, you suddenly are like you have nothing at all that is trustworthy.

Do the people around you rely on their faithfulness or the faithfulness of Jesus? Let's see. Do they speak in terms of being saved as some time and event in their lives, or do they point to the time of their salvation as a hilltop some 2000 years ago. Do they speak of their baptism as being valid because of themselves and their characteristics or because it properly included God's Word? Did they choose God or did God choose them? Get the idea. I'm sure with just a little examination you can see whether the basic teaching depends on the people or on God.

Now it seems that you are equating not knowing with disbelief. It is one thing to say you don't exactly understand Genesis, it is quite another to say Genesis is wrong. Get the difference? The Bible holds knowledge highly, but not too highly. We aren't saved because we know the Bible, Satan knows the Bible, we are saved through our faith. Faith is a belief but not just what we think of as belief today. Demons and Satan believe in Jesus they even talk with him, how would they not believe, but they don't follow Jesus, they didn't put their trust in him, they do not have faith. It almost seems to me that you are thinking you don't have faith because it doesn't measure up to some standard you have been taught, but reading your posts, it seems to me that you do have faith, maybe much more than you realize.

If I may, I would suggest doing the Theology Program at bible.org you can enroll for credit and buy workbooks and such but you can also watch the classes and download the workbooks and such for free. The basis of the course isn't so much a here is what to believe, but a how to course for theology. It goes through things like essentials, nonessentials, the Bible, and so on.

I think you are ready for and really need something like that so you can work through your faith and come to understand it. I just think a lot of your problems come from being involved in what I would consider a how not to do theology situation.

Marv

 

[filly]

filly, Sounds to melike the Holy Spirit is dealing with you. If I might let me ask you a few questions so that i may btter be able to TRY and provide answers to you.
1. Do you believe that all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God?
( the glory of God= perfection or in others words Jesus)
2. Do you have issues with the account of the life ,death,and resurrection of Jesus?
3. Are you really open to answers to your problems?

To help with your Genesis issues let me suggest that you check out three DVD's
1. The Priveledged Planet
2. icons of Evelution
3. Unlocking the mysteries of life
I think theinformation included on these will help you. These are not religious in nature but scientific. i got my copies from CRI there adress is equip.org, you my also find other good resources at this site to help with your problem another good source would be Christian Ministry International the ministry of Dr. Ron Carlson.

In Christ, Tom

Answers:

1. Yes, if God exists.

2. No. I can believe in this. I say "can" instead of "do" because of my questions concerning God and the creation account. I guess you can say I believe in this 99.9%. The .1% remaining is a void caused by my concern over the apparent discrepancy between science and the creation account. In other words, how can I fully believe in the rest of the Bible if the first part doesn't add up?

3. Give me all the answers/ideas you've got!

 

[filly]

Actually, the church's one foundation is Jesus Christ. Our high view of scripture comes about because of his high view of scripture. Don't flip it and put the Bible over Christ, we don't worship the Bible, we worship God. The Bible is important because it is God's Word, but the Bible without God is nothing, whereas God without the Bible is still God.

If the Bible is God's Word, then why is the creation account, the first flippin' thing you read when you open the book, seemingly way out of line with what we know today?

It also seems to me you have been involved in some fundamentalist group that must basically stick everything into two groups. Totally essential and totally unnecessary. It sounds as though you have been taught that you must believe in a literal 6 day creation and when you are questioning that, you suddenly are like you have nothing at all that is trustworthy.

Actually, I haven't been taught that I must believe in a 6-day creation. I put that on myself. Again, if it's God's Word, then how can it be wrong? So, to me, I should believe in it literally. Clearly, some verses in the Bible are allegorical. They're set up to be a parable. I'm fine with those. But reading that God created this, created that, etc., even telling us what day he did what, reads as though it happened the way it says. It's not set up as a symoblic story to me. I read it as though the author is telling us fact. But again, this goes against what science tells us today.

 

[Joykins]

Belief isn't just as simple as holding certain assertions to be scientifically true.

[BIBLE]Mark 9:23-24[/BIBLE]

Belief in terms of saving belief, is trust, it is faithfulness and loyalty, it is where your heart lies. It is your heart seeking to know God and Jesus, and to bring your life in proper alignment with them. It doesn't always go hand-in-hand with head-assent to "facts" as the story of the poor father of the afflicted son in Mark.

(And I don't insist that the Bible be "factual" as much as I rely on it being theologically true.)

 

[Espada]

This is a tangent to my other post made a few minutes earlier, "Salvation and a non-literal view of Genesis." What is meant by belief? I believe that the Earth is round. Why? I've seen pictures. I believe that water will freeze if left in the freezer. Why? I can put a glass of water in the freezer and check on it in an hour. And on and on and on.

No, you know those things as fact, it is different to belief. To believe in this context would also mean to trust and accept God.

The trouble, the word believe usually means to think something is. Lets face it Satan believes in God and Jesus but he doesn't have that acceptance.

 

[Sabra]

rstrats:

What translation is this from? This is the first rendering of Hebrews 11:1 that I've seen that makes any sense.

Um, I'm pretty sure I got it from The Good News Bible: Today's English Version. I guess it goes under two names, GNB and TEV, so I just combine them and write: GNB/TEV. I usually include the translation at the start or end of Bible references, I don't know what happened in that instance. I've had the GNB/TEV since I was a kid and its still all in the on place - I guess I haven't been reading it as much as I should be.

It's one of my favourite versions and IMHO one of the more accurate ones too. The NIV translation of Hebrews 11:1 is also very similar: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."