What if...?

[EvanWilliams]

As an agnostic atheist, I've often tried to make sense out of Christianity and other faiths. I could never really accept mainstream forms of Christianity as they just never seemed to make much sense to me. There is a barrier of outrage in my mind that rails against the idea of loving a God that created a species predestined to fall, or a God that would knowingly create a Hell where the majority of mankind would one day end up writhing forever. I just can't reconcile a God that would create a Hell where I am presumably going if mainstream Christianity is accurate and him also somehow loving me.

But... things make a little more sense to me if we consider a few "alternative" scenarios. I would just like to get some input from some anyone of any faith or lack thereof on what you think the plausibility is of any of these scenarios:

1. God is not all-powerful. There is a force of evil of equal or greater power than God (we'll call him Satan, I suppose, but not necessarily the rebellious Satan that was cast out of heaven for seeking to usurp Yahweh). To me, this makes more sense and would solve the problem of evil. If God is not really *all* powerful, then it makes sense that the force of evil can exist. God is fighting to save us, and Satan seeks to damn us on equal footing in an eternal battle for souls. I guess this is more in line with Zoroastrianism.

2. The God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are not the same God. This idea is core to the beliefs of the Gnostics if I am not mistaken. Perhaps the petty, bloodthirsty God of the Old Testament was usurped by the greater God through Jesus' sacrifice? This would solve the quandary of why the sacrifice of Jesus was even necessary. After all, an all-powerful God could simply forgive and be done with it. Why the need for a sacrifice? If we remove God's omnipotence, it makes a little more sense (at least to me). Perhaps there is some power behind a deicidal sacrifice that can save an entire mortal race? If that is the case, then I could see myself loving and accepting Jesus. But if the sacrifice of Jesus is mandated by an omnipotent God, it just seems completely unnecessary... I mean... if you're the all-powerful ruler of the Universe, can't you think of a way to save humanity that *doesn't* involve the horrible torture and murder of an innocent man that also happens to be yourself? So to sum up this scenario:

-Evil God creates us/damns us
-Good God defeats Evil God's plan for damnation through Jesus
-It is up to us to accept the Good God's gift to us, "signing the contract", if you will
-Maybe the Evil God somehow prevents the Good God from continuing to make himself known to us directly?

3. The Bible was written/inspired by God, so God will obviously write it in such a way as to make himself look good, right? But what if Satan is actually the good guy? It's strange, I know, but I've always found myself identifying more with the character of Satan than God. Satan led us to knowledge and empowerment; God did not like this and damned our species for it... why is he so insecure? So what if we gained some knowledge? If he did not want that to happen, why did he put the Tree in the Garden in the first place?. I don't know, but to me, it seems like Satan is the more appealing of the two. After all, Satan only killed about a dozen people according to the Bible, most of them Job's family under the direction of God. God has killed millions, against his own commandment no less. (If I have the numbers slightly wrong, the orders of magnitude of difference make the error pretty much negligible). Maybe we just never heard Satan's side of the story? Maybe there is something God is hiding from us? I don't think it's so crazy to think maybe we do live in a universe ruled by an evil God, and the figure of Satan, less powerful as he is, seeks to rebel against him with our help? Who knows? Similar scenarios take place here on Earth all the time; is it so crazy to think that maybe the same situation exists on a cosmic scale?

In hindsight, I suppose these 3 scenarios are not mutually exclusive, compatible to a degree. Each just has a different bit of a twist to it. Anyway, let me know what your thoughts are =)

By the way, I am offering these alternative scenarios with the assumption that it is entirely possible that the Bible is not completely correct, or maybe even mostly false. So please do not use the Bible to argue against these, as it would completely defeat the purpose of this little thought experiment.

 

[oi_antz]

As an agnostic atheist, I've often tried to make sense out of Christianity and other faiths. I could never really accept mainstream forms of Christianity as they just never seemed to make much sense to me.

It is my opinion that you haven't had the facts presented in a suitable manner that you could have all your questions answered, so you were left dissatisfied with the answers you received, which is to be expected. It's physically impossible to take a comprehension and plant it on someone else's consciousness, which is why we aren't able to agree with every opinion we come across.

There is a barrier of outrage in my mind that rails against the idea of loving a God that created a species predestined to fall, or a God that would knowingly create a Hell where the majority of mankind would one day end up writhing forever. I just can't reconcile a God that would create a Hell where I am presumably going if mainstream Christianity is accurate and him also somehow loving me.

So dismiss that dogma, it doesn't rest well with your heart. You don't need to subscribe to mainstream Christianity if it conflicts with what you believe is true. Christianity encompasses the study of Jesus Christ as a role model, it is the personal discovery of His nature which is the reward, in fact when I was converted I was not interested in the afterlife I was only interested in doing the right thing by speaking up about the truth of Jesus. What this means is that I have found my relationship with Him, I do know His nature and character quite well, and it is my willing duty to share the message that everyone can also come to know Jesus as I have, if they would repent from worshiping the sin in their lives. You don't even need to go to church to be Christian, but you need to be devoted to sharing the truth you discover.

But... things make a little more sense to me if we consider a few "alternative" scenarios. I would just like to get some input from some anyone of any faith or lack thereof on what you think the plausibility is of any of these scenarios:

1. God is not all-powerful. There is a force of evil of equal or greater power than God (we'll call him Satan, I suppose, but not necessarily the rebellious Satan that was cast out of heaven for seeking to usurp Yahweh). To me, this makes more sense and would solve the problem of evil. If God is not really *all* powerful, then it makes sense that the force of evil can exist. God is fighting to save us, and Satan seeks to damn us on equal footing in an eternal battle for souls. I guess this is more in line with Zoroastrianism.

God tolerates evil for our sake. Until we come to be reborn of the spirit we are regarded as sinners and we are slaves to sin. This means that in our minds there are constant battles for dominion between the forces of good and evil. I don't believe the enemy is as wise as God, although he seems to think so and has certainly gone a long way in his argument.

2. The God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are not the same God. This idea is core to the beliefs of the Gnostics if I am not mistaken. Perhaps the petty, bloodthirsty God of the Old Testament was usurped by the greater God through Jesus' sacrifice? This would solve the quandary of why the sacrifice of Jesus was even necessary. After all, an all-powerful God could simply forgive and be done with it. Why the need for a sacrifice? If we remove God's omnipotence, it makes a little more sense (at least to me). Perhaps there is some power behind a deicidal sacrifice that can save an entire mortal race? If that is the case, then I could see myself loving and accepting Jesus. But if the sacrifice of Jesus is mandated by an omnipotent God, it just seems completely unnecessary... I mean... if you're the all-powerful ruler of the Universe, can't you think of a way to save humanity that *doesn't* involve the horrible torture and murder of an innocent man that also happens to be yourself? So to sum up this scenario:

-Evil God creates us/damns us
-Good God defeats Evil God's plan for damnation through Jesus
-It is up to us to accept the Good God's gift to us, "signing the contract", if you will
-Maybe the Evil God somehow prevents the Good God from continuing to make himself known to us directly?

You are not mindful of the matters of heaven, just as John said to Jesus when he wanted to fight in the garden of Gethsemane. The death of Jesus Christ was necessary in order to establish Jesus' kingdom throughout the world due to free will rather than force.

3. The Bible was written/inspired by God, so God will obviously write it in such a way as to make himself look good, right? But what if Satan is actually the good guy? It's strange, I know, but I've always found myself identifying more with the character of Satan than God. Satan led us to knowledge and empowerment; God did not like this and damned our species for it... why is he so insecure? So what if we gained some knowledge? If he did not want that to happen, why did he put the Tree in the Garden in the first place?. I don't know, but to me, it seems like Satan is the more appealing of the two. After all, Satan only killed about a dozen people according to the Bible, most of them Job's family under the direction of God. God has killed millions, against his own commandment no less. (If I have the numbers slightly wrong, the orders of magnitude of difference make the error pretty much negligible). Maybe we just never heard Satan's side of the story? Maybe there is something God is hiding from us? I don't think it's so crazy to think maybe we do live in a universe ruled by an evil God, and the figure of Satan, less powerful as he is, seeks to rebel against him with our help? Who knows? Similar scenarios take place here on Earth all the time; is it so crazy to think that maybe the same situation exists on a cosmic scale?

If you aren't going to trust God to tell you the truth, you will inevitably trust the enemy to tell you a lie. We often go a long time without drawing near to God, this is why you are tempted to believe lies that do not originate from God and because you've spent a lot of time considering these ideas you've warmed up to them. The point of difference between God and Satan is that God will tell the truth whether it pleases us or not is irrelevant. Satan on the other hand will tell us whatever we want to hear that makes us feel good. The enemy's greatest attack vector is human greed. Once it has established the technique of swaying you then you become a puppet to them. This is the freedom that Jesus grants us, that you can become responsible for the state of your soul and the spiritual friends you keep. Jesus doesn't try to claim our soul for Him, He claims our soul from the enemy and gives it straight back to us.

Yes, the God of the new testament appears different from the God of the old testament, I think this is due to the fact that God now has a new aspect of personality - the personality of Jesus.

In hindsight, I suppose these 3 scenarios are not mutually exclusive, compatible to a degree. Each just has a different bit of a twist to it. Anyway, let me know what your thoughts are =)

By the way, I am offering these alternative scenarios with the assumption that it is entirely possible that the Bible is not completely correct, or maybe even mostly false. So please do not use the Bible to argue against these, as it would completely defeat the purpose of this little thought experiment.

Well I don't know how you expect to find answers to your questions if you aren't prepared to hear from God Himself. If you hate the Bible so much you would do well for yourself to figure out why.

 

[EvanWilliams]

It is my opinion that you haven't had the facts presented in a suitable manner that you could have all your questions answered, so you were left dissatisfied with the answers you received, which is to be expected. It's physically impossible to take a comprehension and plant it on someone else's consciousness, which is why we aren't able to agree with every opinion we come across.

You don't really have any solid founding on which to make judgements of how I have been presented with facts as you have no knowledge of my past. You're baselessly conjecturing. The reason I do not agree with your opinion is because there is no good evidence for it and it makes no logical sense to me.

So dismiss that dogma, it doesn't rest well with your heart. You don't need to subscribe to mainstream Christianity if it conflicts with what you believe is true. Christianity encompasses the study of Jesus Christ as a role model, it is the personal discovery of His nature which is the reward, in fact when I was converted I was not interested in the afterlife I was only interested in doing the right thing by speaking up about the truth of Jesus. What this means is that I have found my relationship with Him, I do know His nature and character quite well, and it is my willing duty to share the message that everyone can also come to know Jesus as I have, if they would repent from worshiping the sin in their lives. You don't even need to go to church to be Christian, but you need to be devoted to sharing the truth you discover.

Umm... no. I'm not just going to cherry pick your religion and pick what I like and discard what I don't. That's what Christians do! =D I could dismiss Hell, but the entire Christian religion depends upon Jesus saving us from Hell, which God created. So, there really is no dismissing it while still being intellectually honest. Furthermore, I do not "worship" sin. I just happen to engage in some behaviours that you might think are wrong which I do not. I believe that as long as I am not hurting anyone, what I am doing is probably not wrong.

God tolerates evil for our sake. Until we come to be reborn of the spirit we are regarded as sinners and we are slaves to sin. This means that in our minds there are constant battles for dominion between the forces of good and evil. I don't believe the enemy is as wise as God, although he seems to think so and has certainly gone a long way in his argument.

Except God created us knowing beforehand that we would be slaves to sin and set things up in the Garden for that to happen quite easily with that pesky tree, the serpent, and our natural curiosity. The enemy probably is wiser than God; statistically, if your religion is correct, the vast majority of mankind is going to Hell. If the battle for souls is a numbers game, your God loses.

You are not mindful of the matters of heaven, just as John said to Jesus when he wanted to fight in the garden of Gethsemane. The death of Jesus Christ was necessary in order to establish Jesus' kingdom throughout the world due to free will rather than force.

You're wrong. See? I can make baseless assertions too. That and you ignored my point that the all-powerful ruler of the universe should have been able to come up with a better way to redeem mankind that having his own son brutally murdered.

If you aren't going to trust God to tell you the truth, you will inevitably trust the enemy to tell you a lie.

False dichotomy

We often go a long time without drawing near to God, this is why you are tempted to believe lies that do not originate from God and because you've spent a lot of time considering these ideas you've warmed up to them.

Strawman laced with question-begging

The point of difference between God and Satan is that God will tell the truth whether it pleases us or not is irrelevant. Satan on the other hand will tell us whatever we want to hear that makes us feel good. The enemy's greatest attack vector is human greed. Once it has established the technique of swaying you then you become a puppet to them. This is the freedom that Jesus grants us, that you can become responsible for the state of your soul and the spiritual friends you keep. Jesus doesn't try to claim our soul for Him, He claims our soul from the enemy and gives it straight back to us.

You're missing the point of what I was saying; that's what the Bible says... what if it's wrong?

Yes, the God of the new testament appears different from the God of the old testament, I think this is due to the fact that God now has a new aspect of personality - the personality of Jesus.

Okay, but doesn't that conflict with the Bible saying that God never changes? Bible aside, how can a perfect being change? If it changes, doesn't that make it no longer perfect, or mean that it was not perfect before?

Well I don't know how you expect to find answers to your questions if you aren't prepared to hear from God Himself. If you hate the Bible so much you would do well for yourself to figure out why.

Whoooaaa, hold on a minute; I never said I *hated* the Bible. Strawman much? Even though I do believe that the world would be better off without it, I don't *hate* the Bible. It is still an important piece of literature and interesting to read. The thing is, I don't want to live my life by some book that has been altered by men through millenia. If God wants me to change, he can tell me that himself, which shouldn't be a problem for an all-powerful being. Many Christians claim to have had direct conversations with God. IF that happened to me, then fine, I would become a Christian most likely. I've tried communicating with God many many many times. My door is open; he just never bothered to walk through.

 

[EvanWilliams]

Hi Evan,
I get to pay you back now for your hateful comments in my thread (joking of course).

Tee-hee. =)

Seriously though, I would suggest that you don't counter every point in someone's post if it makes your post as long as the one above me. I read it for a while and it just got too long. Making it one paragraph also made it hard to follow.

Yeah for some reason it kept making me format my code manually using HTML tags, and even then it wouldn't format correctly... though it seems to be fixed now.

When did Satan command anyone to kill an entire people?

Exactly my point. God flooded the entire Earth and killed everybody apparently... (that alone is enough to make me never want to worship him) There are probably thousands of better ways he could have handled that. Then afterwards, he goes "Oops, my bad." What kind of perfect being screws up that badly?

Furthermore, the worst Satan ever did was tell us how to know good from evil. God punished us for it, not Satan. To top it off, God in his infinite wisdom let Satan into the Garden of Eden in the first place. It's almost as if God set things up specifically for us to screw ourselves right out of Paradise.

It all just seems so ridiculous that I can't comprehend how anyone takes it seriously. Ohhh that's right, I'm not reading the Bible correctly! It only *seems* utterly ridiculous because God is beyond my comprehension and I am not a true Christian with the power of the Holy Spirit! Yeah... right... that's convenient.

Peace,
-Evan Williams

 

[oi_antz]

It is my opinion that you haven't had the facts presented in a suitable manner that you could have all your questions answered, so you were left dissatisfied with the answers you received, which is to be expected. It's physically impossible to take a comprehension and plant it on someone else's consciousness, which is why we aren't able to agree with every opinion we come across.

You don't really have any solid founding on which to make judgements of how I have been presented with facts as you have no knowledge of my past. You're baselessly conjecturing. The reason I do not agree with your opinion is because there is no good evidence for it and it makes no logical sense to me.

Ok, but I wish you would consider what I do say even if it is not hitting your nail on the head. I can't read your mind, but I'll respond according to how I feel best approaches your misunderstanding.

So dismiss that dogma, it doesn't rest well with your heart. You don't need to subscribe to mainstream Christianity if it conflicts with what you believe is true. Christianity encompasses the study of Jesus Christ as a role model, it is the personal discovery of His nature which is the reward, in fact when I was converted I was not interested in the afterlife I was only interested in doing the right thing by speaking up about the truth of Jesus. What this means is that I have found my relationship with Him, I do know His nature and character quite well, and it is my willing duty to share the message that everyone can also come to know Jesus as I have, if they would repent from worshiping the sin in their lives. You don't even need to go to church to be Christian, but you need to be devoted to sharing the truth you discover.

Umm... no. I'm not just going to cherry pick your religion and pick what I like and discard what I don't. That's what Christians do! =D I could dismiss Hell, but the entire Christian religion depends upon Jesus saving us from Hell, which God created. So, there really is no dismissing it while still being intellectually honest. Furthermore, I do not "worship" sin. I just happen to engage in some behaviours that you might think are wrong which I do not. I believe that as long as I am not hurting anyone, what I am doing is probably not wrong.

Actually, you might find that much of the baggage and judgmental "thou shalt not" actually doesn't originate from the Bible, hence why I suggested scrutinizing dogma and preconceived ideas of how to envisage God until you have formally come to meet Him.

God tolerates evil for our sake. Until we come to be reborn of the spirit we are regarded as sinners and we are slaves to sin. This means that in our minds there are constant battles for dominion between the forces of good and evil. I don't believe the enemy is as wise as God, although he seems to think so and has certainly gone a long way in his argument.

Except God created us knowing beforehand that we would be slaves to sin and set things up in the Garden for that to happen quite easily with that pesky tree, the serpent, and our natural curiosity. The enemy probably is wiser than God; statistically, if your religion is correct, the vast majority of mankind is going to Hell. If the battle for souls is a numbers game, your God loses.

You haven't sought to understand God's position and the position that one act of rebellion put everyone into. In terms of God's majesty, everything about Him is holy and there is no sin in Him. The moment (IMO it was a moment in eternity while time was infinite) the moment sin is introduced everyone is affected. You're obviously quite ignorant to the laws of constraint that pertain to holiness and sin, we can't change these laws just because we might like to.

You are not mindful of the matters of heaven, just as John said to Jesus when he wanted to fight in the garden of Gethsemane. The death of Jesus Christ was necessary in order to establish Jesus' kingdom throughout the world due to free will rather than force.

You're wrong. See? I can make baseless assertions too. That and you ignored my point that the all-powerful ruler of the universe should have been able to come up with a better way to redeem mankind that having his own son brutally murdered.

Yes, you just admitted that you aren't mindful of heavenly matters. Physical death is a one-off event, but in context of an eternity, sometimes it is necessary for a human to die. Thank God in Christianity there is no further bloodshed required than that of Jesus Himself.

If you aren't going to trust God to tell you the truth, you will inevitably trust the enemy to tell you a lie.

False dichotomy

We often go a long time without drawing near to God, this is why you are tempted to believe lies that do not originate from God and because you've spent a lot of time considering these ideas you've warmed up to them.

Strawman laced with question-begging

The point of difference between God and Satan is that God will tell the truth whether it pleases us or not is irrelevant. Satan on the other hand will tell us whatever we want to hear that makes us feel good. The enemy's greatest attack vector is human greed. Once it has established the technique of swaying you then you become a puppet to them. This is the freedom that Jesus grants us, that you can become responsible for the state of your soul and the spiritual friends you keep. Jesus doesn't try to claim our soul for Him, He claims our soul from the enemy and gives it straight back to us.

You're missing the point of what I was saying; that's what the Bible says... what if it's wrong?

Then everyone's screwed and not saved, Jesus died in vain. But that is a hypothetical which can't be proven. The fact that the Bible is true continues to stand well to research.

Yes, the God of the new testament appears different from the God of the old testament, I think this is due to the fact that God now has a new aspect of personality - the personality of Jesus.

Okay, but doesn't that conflict with the Bible saying that God never changes? Bible aside, how can a perfect being change? If it changes, doesn't that make it no longer perfect, or mean that it was not perfect before?

I think it is more that the way He conducts earthly matters has changed, I'm not sure I was correct to suggest God's character changed. But certainly now that Jesus HAS COME and STILL LIVES, we can attest that Him being the God of the new testament certainly does conduct earthly matters without further need for blood sacrifice - perhaps that's just the tip of the ice berg.

Well I don't know how you expect to find answers to your questions if you aren't prepared to hear from God Himself. If you hate the Bible so much you would do well for yourself to figure out why.

Whoooaaa, hold on a minute; I never said I *hated* the Bible. Strawman much? Even though I do believe that the world would be better off without it, I don't *hate* the Bible. It is still an important piece of literature and interesting to read. The thing is, I don't want to live my life by some book that has been altered by men through millenia. If God wants me to change, he can tell me that himself, which shouldn't be a problem for an all-powerful being. Many Christians claim to have had direct conversations with God. IF that happened to me, then fine, I would become a Christian most likely. I've tried communicating with God many many many times. My door is open; he just never bothered to walk through.

[/QUOTE]
I think you are in need of a spiritual revelation, I'll pray for that. You have to accept that spirituality isn't 3 dimensional, it is relative to existence though, when you are spiritually enlightened you can feel the spiritual atmosphere of a room which belongs to certain spirits. There are a lot of spirits out there, they are not all from God, some of them are independent recruits, some of them become deities and gather the worship of their followers. You're free to choose any which one you want to trust or trust in whoever it is you trust already (this would be an angel or devil spirit). Yeah spirituality is the "metaphysical" realm which is connected to the physical realm through the mind. If your spirit friends can convince your mind to make a decision and take action on the world, then they've got you as a puppet. This is what I've been realising lately with such comments as "Jesus gives our soul back to us", basically we are given the opportunity to be woken to the spiritual realm through Jesus and you either accept it or decline it. Beyond that is an open book based on the types of decisions you'll make. I hope I've explained that well enough for you, that Christianity is really dealing with spirits of good and evil, it's not just a party club

 

[aiki]

There is a barrier of outrage in my mind that rails against the idea of loving a God that created a species predestined to fall, or a God that would knowingly create a Hell where the majority of mankind would one day end up writhing forever. I just can't reconcile a God that would create a Hell where I am presumably going if mainstream Christianity is accurate and him also somehow loving me.

God didn't create a species predestined to fall. People choose their end.

God loves, but He also hates. What does He hate? Sin. God loves you so much He has made a way, at great cost to Himself, for you to escape the terrible consequences of your sin. But God's love is constrained by His holiness. Though He loves you deeply, He hates your sin with absolute hatred. As a result, if you don't accept God's loving remedy for your sin, you remain anathema to His holy nature and will be rejected.

1. God is not all-powerful. There is a force of evil of equal or greater power than God (we'll call him Satan, I suppose, but not necessarily the rebellious Satan that was cast out of heaven for seeking to usurp Yahweh). To me, this makes more sense and would solve the problem of evil. If God is not really *all* powerful, then it makes sense that the force of evil can exist. God is fighting to save us, and Satan seeks to damn us on equal footing in an eternal battle for souls. I guess this is more in line with Zoroastrianism.

If God is not all-powerful, then He isn't God. By definition, omnipotence is a necessary part of God's nature.

2. The God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are not the same God. This idea is core to the beliefs of the Gnostics if I am not mistaken. Perhaps the petty, bloodthirsty God of the Old Testament was usurped by the greater God through Jesus' sacrifice?

This is not what the Bible teaches.

This would solve the quandary of why the sacrifice of Jesus was even necessary.

Quandary? I'm not aware of any quandary in this regard. The Bible makes it quite clear why the sacrifice of Christ was necessary.

After all, an all-powerful God could simply forgive and be done with it. Why the need for a sacrifice?

Because God's omnipotence is not His only characteristic. He is also perfectly holy and just. And it is God's holiness which is at the root of why Christ needed to die for our sins.

If we remove God's omnipotence, it makes a little more sense (at least to me). Perhaps there is some power behind a deicidal sacrifice that can save an entire mortal race? If that is the case, then I could see myself loving and accepting Jesus. But if the sacrifice of Jesus is mandated by an omnipotent God, it just seems completely unnecessary... I mean... if you're the all-powerful ruler of the Universe, can't you think of a way to save humanity that *doesn't* involve the horrible torture and murder of an innocent man that also happens to be yourself?

As I said, God's omnipotence doesn't offer any complete remedy for the problem of our sinfulness and God's holiness.

3. The Bible was written/inspired by God, so God will obviously write it in such a way as to make himself look good, right? But what if Satan is actually the good guy? It's strange, I know, but I've always found myself identifying more with the character of Satan than God.

Your identification with Satan doesn't necessarily mean we ought to suspect the veracity of the Bible. And God, by definition, doesn't need anything - not even to look good.

Satan led us to knowledge and empowerment; God did not like this and damned our species for it... why is he so insecure?

Satan led us to death and destruction. What is empowering about that?

So what if we gained some knowledge? If he did not want that to happen, why did he put the Tree in the Garden in the first place?.

In order to make Adam and Eve's obedience to Him something they actually could choose.

I don't know, but to me, it seems like Satan is the more appealing of the two. After all, Satan only killed about a dozen people according to the Bible, most of them Job's family under the direction of God.

Satan is responsible for the death of every person ever born.

God has killed millions, against his own commandment no less.

God gives life and it is His right to take it away. His commandment is for us.

(If I have the numbers slightly wrong, the orders of magnitude of difference make the error pretty much negligible). Maybe we just never heard Satan's side of the story? Maybe there is something God is hiding from us?

Asking these questions doesn't legitimize them.

I don't think it's so crazy to think maybe we do live in a universe ruled by an evil God, and the figure of Satan, less powerful as he is, seeks to rebel against him with our help? Who knows?

I can't really comment on what you imagine. The Bible tells a very different story.

Similar scenarios take place here on Earth all the time; is it so crazy to think that maybe the same situation exists on a cosmic scale?

Crazy? I don't know. Likely? No, not really.

Selah.

 

[suzybeezy]

God doesn't send anyone to Hell. God has done everything He possibly can to keep you out of Hell and still leave you as a person with free will and not just a robot. That's the way He made us--after His image, after His likeness, the power to say “yes” or the power to say “no,” the power to reject our own Creator, and of course to take the consequences. Sin brings suffering into the world. There's no way of getting around it. And the greatest sin in the world is to reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.


The Bible says that God prepared hell for the devil and his demonic cohorts (Matthew 25:41), that He is "...not wishing for any [person] to perish but for all to come to repentance." (II Peter 3:9), and that He has done everything possible to save us from that terrible, terrible place. Yet in the end God will not violate or overrule the deliberate choice of those who consciously and willfully turn away from Him.
—Daryl E. Witmer of AIIA Institute

 

[razeontherock]

Hi Evan. you've seen a lot of my perspective, and I'm glad others are giving you their's. We all see things differently, and rather than being a knock against G-d or Christianity, it shows His greatness. Much like the differences in the 4 Gospels show their reality. Still, there's a couple points in here I have a lot of experience with:

I just can't reconcile a God that would create a Hell where I am presumably going if mainstream Christianity is accurate and him also somehow loving me.

No doubt! This is a BIG concept. i was radically saved for well over 10 years before the words "Jesus Loves you" really had much meaning to me.

2. The God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are not the same God. This would solve the quandary of why the sacrifice of Jesus was even necessary.
-Maybe the Evil God somehow prevents the Good God from continuing to make himself known to us directly?

Covenant. OC and NC are different Covenants. Do you understand either? Same G-d, same man. Different Covenant. This reconciles most of the above. satan is not, never was, and never will be, a god. Not in any form or way. Anyone "seeing" him is appalled by how weak and puny he is. He's all bluff. (Still more powerful than our mortal flesh, but nothing compared to his reputation)

The necessity of Jesus' sacrifice is no quandary at all; G-d is Just. The law of sin and death. Have you ever seen anyone violate it? You know it well.

What you DON'T know, is the accomplishment(s) of Jesus' one sacrifice. Eternity will be spent (for those of us lucky enough to see it as it is) being utterly overwhelmed by it's ... awesomeness. Some will have to do other things too, but that's missing the best part. So I'm saying that any glimpse any of us may get of what His sacrifice accomplishes, (current, ongoing tense) is NOT a complete picture at all. So don't see differences as conflict, but augmentation. The entire Body of Christ put together, i.e., all believers throughout all time, is supposed to be a fair representation. Humbling, eh?

3. But what if Satan is actually the good guy?

There needs to be a logical fallacy addressing this. This isn't a question of semantics, as the Name of G-d is unpronounceable. It isn't just concepts either; it's S(s)pirits. Evil exists, and so does Good. They are NOT equal yet opposite as yin and yang supposes! The words attached to this and all it entails are for our benefit.

It's strange, I know, but I've always found myself identifying more with the character of Satan than God.

Not strange at all. We ALL do. You're just honest enough to admit it.

This is what it means to be "fallen." Lucifer fell and became satan, who is in league with Adam. Not G-d, nor even Jesus (in His resurrected state). Angels are greater in power and might, so we won't get an upper hand there.

Satan led us to knowledge and empowerment

No he didn't, that was satan's lie. Look around, do you see any evidence that was the outcome?

why did he put the Tree in the Garden in the first place?

In the thread in CWR, antz, Jeshu and I all addressed this thoroughly w/ Sith Doughnut. I strongly suggest reading through Jeshu's lengthy reply to this, even though it's a tough read. However you "get it," this is a most important concept.

I don't know, but to me, it seems like Satan is the more appealing of the two.

See above, re: "fall." Yes, satan certainly has more appeal, but it's snake oil. And the Christian's biggest dilemma is we love our sin. Maybe not ALL sin, but "our" sin. We each have weaknesses, and as we step out in bringing G-d's Kingdom to earth, the enemy makes it a point to get familiar w/ our weak spots to try to exploit them and at least neutralize us. This would be where the "take up your cross" part of following Jesus comes in. From the outside looking in, no it's not appealing at all. Ask yourself, why have so many kept at it, even to the point of suffering horrible death? Answer: looking at this from the inside, there's PLENTY of appeal, here and now. It's the most fulfilling life you can ever lead, despite the challenges. Or maybe even because it is so challenging?

After all, Satan only killed about a dozen people according to the Bible, most of them Job's family under the direction of God. God has killed millions, against his own commandment no less. (If I have the numbers slightly wrong, the orders of magnitude of difference make the error pretty much negligible). Maybe we just never heard Satan's side of the story?

That song's already been written, there are a million song writers out of work, and you're applying for the job? What top 40 hits have you written? And no, those that G-d directly killed, His actions were certainly not against His commandment. They were the FULFILLMENT of His commandment!

Reference above, "Covenant."

the figure of Satan, less powerful as he is, seeks to rebel against him with our help?

satan despises you. We offer him no help at all. There is no help for him and he knows it. Think "Joker" in Batman. He got all the help he ever will w/ 1/3 of the angels in heaven which is far more assistance than all of humanity could give, and his fallen nature is such that he will not admit defeat. He'd make a good hockey player but true to form, his teeth have been pulled.

And yes, my comments ARE from personal experience. I know these entities, and they know me.