what if you get charismated and you return to a protestant church for a time then decide to return to Orthodoxy are you still part of the Church?
You would be received back through the Sacrament of Confession.
Depending on the situation and the priest, there may be some sort of epitemia (therapeutic penance) applied, but not always.
Yes indeed. That's what I meant when I said "therepeutic penance", but it is better to be more clear, than to allow a misunderstanding by assuming that what I intended to say would be understood the some way I meant it.It must be noted that the therepeutic penance which an Orthodox priest gives under certain circumstances is NEVER given as a punishment but rather as an act or time of healing to the repentents soul.
Yes indeed. That's what I meant when I said "therepeutic penance", but it is better to be more clear, than to allow a misunderstanding by assuming that what I intended to say would be understood the some way I meant it.
Thank you!
It must be noted that the therepeutic penance which an Orthodox priest gives under certain circumstances is NEVER given as a punishment but rather as an act or time of healing to the repentents soul.
Yes we wouldn't want any popish understandings of penance.
Before you bash me
let me remind you that I did grow up Roman Catholic and did spend a year in a major seminary run by the Benedictine Order.
Next time be more careful before you assume all Orthodox are ignorant of the way Rome functions and the way it actually believes.
I am well aware of that brother Michael. I have read the entire text of your testimony here on CF.
You are the one assuming my brother.As I said, I am well aware of your past as a Roman Catholic. I am also well aware that there are a good number of Orthodox who do understand Roman Catholic theology (but one perspective of Catholic theology mind you).
This is what I often find myself running into when I talk (or try to share a joke) to converts to Eastern Orthodoxy, particularly former Roman Catholics. The fact is you can never really win. Either you are a big bad Latin schismatic bashing them, or you don't "understand" them (regardless of how well formed you might be in Orthodox theology). The truth is, as you well know brother Michael, most Roman Catholics couldn't tell a prokimenon from a trapeza, and Orthodox converts tend to take advantage of that. Most Latin Catholics will feel guilty in listening to Orthodox descriptions of Occidental Christianity, remembering the injunctions of our hierarchy to be "nice", and be fascinated with the fact that the Orthodox seem like such exotic and delightful creatures.But some of us (especially us former Evangelicals who seriously studied and considered Orthodoxy before becoming Catholic) know the Orthodox Church better than that, and if we dare try to show that the East is no Shingri-La, they bring out the usual response (or a variant of it):
"We are not you and you don't understand us because you're Western."
I am well aware of that brother Michael. I have read the entire text of your testimony here on CF.
You are the one assuming my brother.As I said, I am well aware of your past as a Roman Catholic. I am also well aware that there are a good number of Orthodox who do understand Roman Catholic theology (but one perspective of Catholic theology mind you).
This is what I often find myself running into when I talk (or try to share a joke) to converts to Eastern Orthodoxy, particularly former Roman Catholics. The fact is you can never really win. Either you are a big bad Latin schismatic bashing them, or you don't "understand" them (regardless of how well formed you might be in Orthodox theology). The truth is, as you well know brother Michael, most Roman Catholics couldn't tell a prokimenon from a trapeza, and Orthodox converts tend to take advantage of that. Most Latin Catholics will feel guilty in listening to Orthodox descriptions of Occidental Christianity, remembering the injunctions of our hierarchy to be "nice", and be fascinated with the fact that the Orthodox seem like such exotic and delightful creatures.But some of us (especially us former Evangelicals who seriously studied and considered Orthodoxy before becoming Catholic) know the Orthodox Church better than that, and if we dare try to show that the East is no Shingri-La, they bring out the usual response (or a variant of it):
"We are not you and you don't understand us because you're Western."
It's one thing to study it as theory. It's quite another to live and experience it.no matter how much you look into Orthodoxy and study it, you really do not understand Orthodoxy until you have lived it for a number of years.
Hello KnightWolfLord (Can I call you "KW"?)
Thanks for your thoughtful comments!
Yes, the differences between us ARE quite complex - otherwise the schism would've ended soon after it began.
One thing I do have to say Michael is right on (and I'm aware that you could also claim this for Catholicism):
It's one thing to study it as theory. It's quite another to live and experience it.
In the end I think we agree on more than both of us realize, LOL.
St. Nektary of Optina agrees!It's one thing to study it as theory. It's quite another to live and experience it.
St. Nektary of Optina agrees!
"Orthodoxy is life. One can not talk about it; one must live it" (English language butchering is mine)
Thank you for your most charitable response my brother.
I agree that faith is first and foremost experential, not intellectual or merely dogmatic (and believe it or not, this was stressed immensly in my formation as a Roman Catholic).
However I feel that there are things that belie Orthodoxy that are sufficient for someone to choose not to become Orthodox, rather than simply converting (a serious matter) and living it and then making a decision, not that this is what you are suggesting, of course.
For example. I wanted to become an Apostolic Christian in the fullest sense. I wanted to follow a Church that had maintained the faith I had discovered in the writings of the Holy Fathers. It became very clear (to me and my heart) that while the Holy Orthodox Church truly is Apostolic and truly is orthodox, it lacks some things spoken of by the Fathers and the Bible.
For example, the Orthodox understanding of divorce, I felt at least, was completely incompatible with the Biblical and Patristic information on the subject. Only in the Catholic Church, that includes all the 23 self-governing churches in communion with Rome, would I find the Patristic and Biblical understanding of divorce kept uncompromised.
....Now....this is obviously a debatable subject my brother, LOL.But my point is that when one is looking (as in my case) for a "New Testament Church" (to quote my Orthodox Study Bible's notes), there are things that can be ascertained through study without actually experiencing them.
To that point, I know of Protestant converts to Orthodoxy who also read the Holy Fathers as I did, and they concluded that Catholic Christianity hadn't kept the Apostolic Faith undefiled. Still being an avid reader of Patristics and Church history, I find that belief to be somewhat unbelievable (and of course I would), HOWEVER the point of study being sufficient on some levels remain.
One final point (as you predicted). I would also contend that like Orthodoxy, Catholicism must also be lived if a full understanding of it is to be truly found. Growing in my walk with the Lord in the bosom of the Latin Catholic Church, and at times the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, I can most certainly tell you that there were things "hidden" from me during the period of catechesis...things that only became truly understood when I began to live my faith.
This point is something that my spiritual father, a Roman deacon, constantly teaches me.
In the end I think we agree on more than both of us realize, LOL. Just the other day I was finding myself disagreeing with the model of ecclesiology present in the writings of Nicholas Afanasieff. I thought of a "eucharistic, local church ecclesiology" as something totally out there.
BUT then I read the official teachings of the Catholic Church on the subject and discovered that we too (even in the Roman Church!) have a strong concept of local church ecclesiology, although we don't accept some of the implications that Afanasieff made. We put it into the perspective of a universal Church in which each particular church contains fully in itself the marks of the whole Body of Christ.
But I digress. My point is that as a Roman Catholic, and one quite proud of the Occidental Christian tradition, I have a duty nonetheless to understand as much as possible about Orthodox theology as well. And while I may never be able to fully understand Holy Orthodoxy since I will not experience it (unless reunion comes, LOL), I will understand it to the best of my ability.
I likewise believe this about Orthodox Christians concerning Roman Catholic theology (or even Byzantine Catholic, Coptic Catholic, and/or Syriac Catholic theology).
There is no doubt in my mind that there is truly some sort of imperfect communion between all of us, especially between Catholics and Orthodox. This communion has been grievously wounded, but it persists still. If all of us strive to overcome the biases and misconceptions, whether perpetrated by church leaders or by historical circumstance, the eventual healing of the wounds in this fragile communion will come about.
AmenAnd so I repeat the prayer that I pray each morning and evening when I use my Melkite Byzantine Catholic prayerbook:
"Remember, O Lord, also all our fathers and brethren, and sisters, and those that lie here, and all Orthodox Christians that departed in the hope of resurrection and life eternal, and settle them with Thy saints, where the light of Thy countenance shall visit them, and have mercy on us, for Thou art good and the Lover of mankind. Bow."
Peace be with you always, and may the day come swiftly when we may partake of the Holy Mysteries together!
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