What if you Find a Watch in the Sand?

[Metal Minister]

hmm.....I give up. Now please tell me what caused the extinction of the dinosaurs.....

*blind post*

Noahic Flood.

 

[Mythunderstood]

God is our Creator. Our Saviour. He has always existed. He is all knowing. He is all powerful. He is perfect. He came down among us in the form of flesh to live among us and suffer for us as Jesus Christ. He is love. He has no beginning and no end.

Who or what do you say God is?

What is all this "our" business? You do know that 2/3rds of the world do not believe in your triune god, don't you?

 

[Mythunderstood]

*blind post*

Noahic Flood.

So, I guess the dinosaurs did not make it on to the ark?

 

[awitch]

So, I guess the dinosaurs did not make it on to the ark?

Missed it by about 80 million years.

 

[dlamberth]

God is our Creator. Our Saviour. He has always existed. He is all knowing. He is all powerful. He is perfect. He came down among us in the form of flesh to live among us and suffer for us as Jesus Christ. He is love. He has no beginning and no end.

Who or what do you say God is?

I experience my Beloved God as the essence of Life/Creation itself. Everywhere I look, there God is.

The way God came down to us in the flesh form is with in each and every human being. God has never limited Himself to one true and only way. People do that, not God. Each of us has that Divine spark or the activity of God as our very essence of being. But don't stop there, the activity of God as the source of Being is with in the essence of life itself.

That in a nut shell is how I answer your question.

.

 

[Isambard]

He is THE CREATOR. no one created Him

112: 1. Say (O Muhammad : "He is Allah, (the) One.
​

2. "Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).
3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten;
4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."
​

Looks like a cop-out.

 

[Isambard]

What would it take to convince you?

I have no problem believing in a universal, all-powerful force. Heck, I believe in four already: weak force, strong force, electromagnetism, and gravity. The difference is I don't claim any of these forces care what happens in the privacy of my bedroom, nor be mad if I enjoy bacon.

 

[LostMarbels]

I have no problem believing in a universal, all-powerful force. Heck, I believe in four already: weak force, strong force, electromagnetism, and gravity. The difference is I don't claim any of these forces care what happens in the privacy of my bedroom, nor be mad if I enjoy bacon.

I want to ask a couple questions along this line of forces:

I have no problem believing in a universal, all-powerful force.

Anyone reading this please. Where did weak force, strong force, electromagnetism, and gravity come form? Before you give me the usual song and dance, please take some time to answer my questions.


The first thing I have had to ponder are these forces them selves.

Where did they come from?

Is gravity (for example) sentient? Self aware?

If so did it have to "learn" it's traits and properties?
Can it at some point forget to be gravity?

If not, how was it put into place?
Was it instructed to "be" gravity?
How was it's traits put into action, and how did objects "know" to be drawn together?

Or did all that exists just exist without any rhyme or reason?.... It just always was.

 

[durangodawood]

I want to ask a couple questions along this line of forces:



Anyone reading this please. Where did weak force, strong force, electromagnetism, and gravity come form? Before you give me the usual song and dance, please take some time to answer my questions.


The first thing I have had to ponder are these forces them selves.

Where did they come from?

Is gravity (for example) sentient? Self aware?

If so did it have to "learn" it's traits and properties?
Can it at some point forget to be gravity?

If not, how was it put into place?
Was it instructed to "be" gravity?
How was it's traits put into action, and how did objects "know" to be drawn together?

Or did all that exists just exist without any rhyme or reason?.... It just always was.

Awesome questions, every one of them.
.
But, as for now, all the "answers" are strictly matters of faith. No one knows. I will say that postulating a being-person as an intelligent creator seems to a be a very human thing to do.
.
Seem to me like "its a mystery for now" is the best answer.
.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Anyone reading this please. Where did weak force, strong force, electromagnetism, and gravity come form? Before you give me the usual song and dance, please take some time to answer my questions.

I apologize if this sounds like "song and dance", but where did God's nature come from? It sounds like these questions carry the assumption that everything must come from somewhere, but conveniently excuse God from that requirement.

The first thing I have had to ponder are these forces them selves.

Where did they come from?

You should ask a physicist that for an in depth explanation. But as I see it they come from physical reality, which is ultimately uncreated.

Is gravity (for example) sentient? Self aware?

Doubtful.

If so did it have to "learn" it's traits and properties?

No, those properties likely arise from the nature of physical entities and their relations.

Likewise, living beings do not "know" how to grow in the sense of having some intelligent pixie inside of them that directs cells to divide. Living beings grow because it is in their nature to grow. They have the right chemicals in the right relations.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[LostMarbels]

I apologize if this sounds like "song and dance",

No, not at all. This is actually a good response. It's rather direct questioning.

where did God's nature come from? It sounds like these questions carry the assumption that everything must come from somewhere, but conveniently excuse God from that requirement.

That's the point. All existence came from somewhere, including God, but where? The only assumption I see is that God cannot be proven without knowledge of his origin. We don't know where anything came form, yet it's here, and we recognize them as fact due to empirical proof. As far as the laws of physics go, I believe it is fair to say that we can not see, touch, smell, taste or define any of the forces themselves. We can only observe the traits of these force and explain by definition how the act/react.

So here we have known factual laws that are found in nature, and we can observe their traits, but we do not know what these forces are comprised of, or were they came from.

Simply put as an example: gravity itself, not it's traits, but the actual "force" or law of gravity has never in any way been observed, and we have no idea of it's origin, or it's make up.

It fly's in the face of logic for something to have no origin, and yet here it is. So the only logical response is: at this point in time we do not yet know.

Also, as I stated many times. God is a force, and an Immutable constant. Just like the laws of physics, at this point in time we do not yet know his origin. But his traits can be tested, and by observation of his traits his existence can be proven, and since God's traits are immutable, threw observance of his traits we can tell god from other forces. Kind of like telling the difference of gravity from inertia. They both have different traits.

Now heres the bottle neck. I always told at this point something to the gest that "I can scientifically observe and/or experiment on what is perceived as "God", but I can't get anywhere other than "unknown""

But that Is experimentation.

ex·per·i·ment

/n. ɪkˈspɛr

ə

mənt; v. ɛkˈspɛr

əˌmɛnt/ Show Spelled [n. ik-sper-uh-muh

nt; v. ek-sper-uh-ment] Show IPA
noun 1. a test, trial, or tentative procedure; an act or operation for the purpose of discovering something unknown

But here's the other problem. You have to know how to do the research. It's kind of like solving a hard mathematical equation. To some, they may believe it foolish, and even impossible to solve, an yet to a learned scholar, and mathematician, quite possible. You see they key is in understanding the mechanics of the equation. I f you understand the mechanics of God, he is quite provable.

But no one will learn shrugging their shoulders saying: "can't be done...."

You should ask a physicist that for an in depth explanation. But as I see it they come from physical reality, which is ultimately uncreated.

No. My thinking is that Physics either predate mankind or were part of the same creation. So in both instance mankind cannot have a full understanding of them.



Now that that was said and done..... would you please answer the other questions you had omitted. Since you did answer to the negative.

If not, how was it put into place?
Was it instructed to "be" gravity?
How was it's traits put into action, and how did objects "know" to be drawn together?

Or did all that exists just exist without any rhyme or reason?.... It just always was.

Where did the traits of gravity come form.
This is no trap. The answer is we simply do not know.

 

[Eudaimonist]

That's the point. All existence came from somewhere, including God, but where?

That's a contradiction. It can't be the case that all existence comes from somewhere, because somewhere implies something that exists.

So, I am not objecting so much to the idea that a God could be a "somewhere" where everything we know exists came from as I object to the absolute requirement that "everything comes from somewhere". What we can know logically is that requirement can't apply to everything.

IMV, that "somewhere" might as well be natural, and not necessarily some supernatural Creator.

Simply put as an example: gravity itself, not it's traits, but the actual "force" or law of gravity has never in any way been observed, and we have no idea of it's origin, or it's make up.

I'm not certain that it makes sense to speak of "gravity itself", since it is more of a relationship than an entity unto itself.

It fly's in the face of logic for something to have no origin

I'm not so certain about that. It does fly in the face of "common sense", but not logic as such.

If you understand the mechanics of God, he is quite provable.

But no one will learn shrugging their shoulders saying: "can't be done...."

Go for it!

Now that that was said and done..... would you please answer the other questions you had omitted. Since you did answer to the negative.

I omitted those questions because I would just be repeating myself, but sure.

If not, how was it put into place?

Gravity was not "put into place" in any meaningful way.

Was it instructed to "be" gravity?

No, since it is not an intelligent process.

How was it's traits put into action, and how did objects "know" to be drawn together?

They don't "know" anything. They simply act as they do because of what they are and how they interact. If you drop a pencil by accident, it doesn't "know" to drop to the floor, it simply falls down a gravity well.

Or did all that exists just exist without any rhyme or reason?.... It just always was.

You could put it that way.

Where did the traits of gravity come form.
This is no trap. The answer is we simply do not know.

I don't think that this is really the right question. It assumes that gravity is somehow "manufactured", and that it wouldn't exist otherwise. But as I see it, it is simply a property that some entities have. The traits are implicit to the existence of that sort of entity.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[LostMarbels]

Likewise, living beings do not "know" how to grow in the sense of having some intelligent pixie inside of them that directs cells to divide. Living beings grow because it is in their nature to grow. They have the right chemicals in the right relations.

Since this wasn't originally on your post I will address it now.

Okay.... There are 92 elements that occur naturally on Earth, in addition to 25 artificial elements, which are created in small quantities in particle accelerators and nuclear reactors. Out of the 92 natural elements, various arrangements of 12 make up 99% of all rocks and soil, while arrangements of 5 make up 99.97% of the atmosphere. Other elements are found in trace amounts, usually one part per million or less.

So what you are saying, is that molecules just POOF! worked. No instruction. no sentient thought process. Everything just was from nothing?

So what about compound elements? Water, salt, and sugar are examples of compounds. When the elements are joined, the atoms lose their individual properties and have different properties from the elements they are composed of.

This too....POOF! just happened.

No explanation....... just is what it is man..........

Without a better term to use, how did molecules "know" to act in this manner? Where did they even come from? Another POOF?

 

[Eudaimonist]

So what you are saying, is that molecules just POOF! worked. No instruction. no sentient thought process. Everything just was from nothing?

All that a molecule needs to "work" is to exist as that kind of molecule.

No explanation....... just is what it is man..........

Existence is metaphysically basic. Entities exist as what they are, with whatever properties they have. There is no "deeper" explanation for what they do other than that.

Without a better term to use, how did molecules "know" to act in this manner? Where did they even come from? Another POOF?

No poof. Molecules arose through natural processes. When atoms are attracted to each other through electrochemical forces, they adhere to each other to form molecules. Atoms don't need to "know" how to do this. They have those properties because they are atoms.

I don't know why physics works precisely as it does, and if I did my Nobel Prize would be in the mail. What I can say is that there can be no ultimate explanation for all of existence, only some of it. Whatever it is that exists (or had existed) without being a product of anything else could possibly help explain why this exists and not that.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[LostMarbels]

My only reference to God is that he is a force that is self evident which can be empirically proven by the observation of known traits. So please understand I am not referring to God in the following query or stament.

I don't think that this is really the right question. It assumes that gravity is somehow "manufactured", and that it wouldn't exist otherwise. But as I see it, it is simply a property that some entities have. The traits are implicit to the existence of that sort of entity.

How is gravity, gravity? What is it comprised of, and where did it come from?

 

[LostMarbels]

No poof. Molecules arose through natural processes. When atoms are attracted to each other through electrochemical forces, they adhere to each other to form molecules. Atoms don't need to "know" how to do this. They have those properties because they are atoms.

I don't know why physics works precisely as it does, and if I did my Nobel Prize would be in the mail. What I can say is that there can be no ultimate explanation for all of existence, only some of it. Whatever it is that exists (or had existed) without being a product of anything else could possibly help explain why this exists and not that.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I get what your saying. I understand what your saying. But your either not seeing or addressing what I'm driving at. Sorry this is a messy subject to convey.

What I'm hearing from not only you right hear and now, but from all atheists I have talked to is that all the working mechanics of physics, chemistry, and what have you. all of it was always in operation. No beginning. No matter how far back you go there is no point of origin. Even for the big bang to occur the laws and mechanics of physics had to already be in operation. We even have scientist proving how something can come from nothing.

So do you understand my question?

 

[Eudaimonist]

How is gravity, gravity? What is it comprised of, and where did it come from?

Let's say that loop quantum gravity theory is true, and spacetime is a manifestation of gravity, and that space and time have discrete quantum states. One might find some deeper explanation for gravity from such a theory of the sort you are asking for.

However, you can always ask "why?" to what you learn from that explanation. You can ask for an explanation for the explanation.

I'll let you in on a little secret. That process has to stop somewhere. It can't go on indefinitely. You are going to reach a point where the answer to "why?" is "that's the way that it is". Perhaps reality will be extremely simple at that deepest level of analysis, but that is the inevitable result.

What I'm hearing from not only you right hear and now, but from all atheists I have talked to is that all the working mechanics of physics, chemistry, and what have you. all of it was always in operation. No beginning. No matter how far back you go there is no point of origin. Even for the big bang to occur the laws and mechanics of physics had to already be in operation.

I personally do believe that there may have been a "point of origin" in the sense of some sort of "cosmic egg" at the beginning of time/change. But the cosmic egg would have to have some sort of properties, and those properties would not be manufactered, but would simply exist because of the sort of thing the cosmic egg was.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[LostMarbels]

Let's say that loop quantum gravity theory is true, and spacetime is a manifestation of gravity, and that space and time have discrete quantum states. One might find some deeper explanation for gravity from such a theory of the sort you are asking for.

To be honest........ It is 4:40 AM for me an Im wayyyyyyy to tired to touch that one right now. :o Sounds like a revisit mañana .

I'll let you in on a little secret. That process has to stop somewhere. It can't go on indefinitely. You are going to reach a point where the answer to "why?" is "that's the way that it is". Perhaps reality will be extremely simple at that deepest level of analysis, but that is the inevitable result

.

You see the thing I don't like about this response is if said God always was or That's just the way things are, I would be told "it sounds like a cop out to me."

Also what cant go on forever? Space? Time? Is there a know or perceived end?

I personally do believe that there may have been a "point of origin" in the sense of some sort of "cosmic egg" at the beginning of time/change. But the cosmic egg would have to have some sort of properties, and those properties would not be manufactered, but would simply exist because of the sort of thing the cosmic egg was.

Your always so keen to point out "and those properties would not be manufactured". That's not even the topic I posed, and by now I think Id look a little foolish trying to snare you in a trap. So, lets try to get beyond that, ok.

Your an atheist. I already know your stance on my beliefs. I know you don't believe in creationism. I'm trying to pick your brain to get an understanding of your beliefs.

I don't quite grasp how anything at all could have properties, without creation, without origin, and all work immediately in perfect concert to preform complex interactions all by it self.

Well I have to be honest. This is intriguing. but I need B E D. Like now. Brain is mush. I'm looking forward to tomorrow hope to see ya around.

 

[Eudaimonist]

You see the thing I don't like about this response is if said God always was or That's just the way things are, I would be told "it sounds like a cop out to me."

In what context? If you had insisted that "everything requires an explanation", then it would be a cop out. If you hadn't, then it isn't.

Also what cant go on forever? Space? Time? Is there a know or perceived end?

No, explanations for things. At some point there won't be anything more basic to explain.

I don't quite grasp how anything at all could have properties, without creation, without origin, and all work immediately in perfect concert to preform complex interactions all by it self.

All that things need to do to "work in perfect concert" is to be what they are.

Nighty-night!


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[durangodawood]

...I don't quite grasp how anything at all could have properties, without creation, without origin, and all work immediately in perfect concert to preform complex interactions all by it self.....

We humans live "in-time". And so our time-based intuition leads us to certain expectations about things.
.
But, ultimately, I see no reasons for those expectations to necessarily apply to something (like the cosmos itself) that may exist outside time, or "eternally" if you will.
.