What if you’re wrong about hell?

martymonster · Mar 14, 2020

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

I'm yet to hear an adequate explanation of this verse, that didn't involve a "but that's a different fire" from the members of the hellfire club.

Any takers? Anyone? And remember, I said adequate!

cyphercat · Mar 14, 2020

The bible says we are saved from God's wrath on judgment day. Jesus Christ died to save us from this wrath.
Why do we deconstruct how fiery or how hot hell is? Or what it is?
If God's wrath isn't that bad, then what was the point of Christ dying? If Hell is something that we can minimize and look at as something endurable, then the gospel is a sham.
All this talk about hell seems to be heading in that direction.

Saint Steven · Mar 14, 2020

The Liturgist said:
I think hellfire-centric approaches to preaching the Gospel in our present culture, due to atheist propaganda and widespread misunderstanding about the nature of Christianity, and the proliferation of poorly catechized proselytizing Christians and also cult apologists who go door to door promoting non-Christian cults like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, which represent a counterfeit Christianity, frequently alienate people. And I think when we consider hellfire as an evangelical subject, we should consider that some of the most successful sermons following this theme, including the ancient homilies of St. John Chrysostom and a more recent example, the estimable Jonathan Edwards with his celebrated “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”, had the effect of restoring piety among baptized Christians who had grown worldly and had allowed Christianity to slip away from the central position it should occupy in their lives.

So the end justifies the means?

Lazarus Short · Mar 14, 2020

martymonster said:
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

I'm yet to hear an adequate explanation of this verse, that didn't involve a "but that's a different fire" from the members of the hellfire club.

Any takers? Anyone? And remember, I said adequate!

Indeed, every instance of so-called "hellfire" in the Bible is actually Godfire. I did an extensive word study on various words related to fire, and they are all either natural fire or Godfire. God is fire, His presence is fire and our destiny is fire. The thing is, the righteous will be like Jesus and so will be able to endure and even thrive in the fire. We already burn, just very slowly...

Basil the Great · Mar 14, 2020

Yes, some of us could well be wrong about Hell, in terms of how many go there and how bad it might be and if it even exists. Then again, what about this scenario? What will some of you think if you get to Heaven and you see a lot of Jews there and Muslims there and you find out that they made it there because they loved God and their fellow man?

Lazarus Short · Mar 14, 2020

cyphercat said:
The bible says we are saved from God's wrath on judgment day. Jesus Christ died to save us from this wrath.
Why do we deconstruct how fiery or how hot hell is? Or what it is?
If God's wrath isn't that bad, then what was the point of Christ dying? If Hell is something that we can minimize and look at as something endurable, then the gospel is a sham.
All this talk about hell seems to be heading in that direction.

A lot of words in some Bibles have been tweaked for effect, such as "damnation" for "condemnation" and "condemnation" for "judgment." In the same way, might "zeal" be a better word than "wrath"?

Lazarus Short · Mar 14, 2020

Basil the Great said:
Yes, some of us could well be wrong about Hell, in terms of how many go there and how bad it might be and if it even exists. Then again, what about this scenario? What will some of you think if you get to Heaven and you see a lot of Jews there and Muslims there and you find out that they made it there because they loved God and their fellow man?

No problem. How about one's personal enemies??

Der Alte · Mar 14, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
A lot of words in some Bibles have been tweaked for effect, such as "damnation" for "condemnation" and "condemnation" for "judgment." In the same way, might "zeal" be a better word than "wrath"?

And you have how many semester hours of Hebrew and Greek that you can make this determination/ Perhaps you get your information from Tentmaker.

martymonster · Mar 14, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
Indeed, every instance of so-called "hellfire" in the Bible is actually Godfire. I did an extensive word study on various words related to fire, and they are all either natural fire or Godfire. God is fire, His presence is fire and our destiny is fire. The thing is, the righteous will be like Jesus and so will be able to endure and even thrive in the fire. We already burn, just very slowly...

Exactly. A word used in one part of scripture, always has the same meaning, in another part of scripture.
There is rightly dividing the word, and then there is unrighteously dividing the word. Making a word to mean something different, just so you wrap it around your idol, is the later. He will not acquit those that are guilty of stealing his gold and silver.

Basil the Great · Mar 14, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
No problem. How about one's personal enemies??

Who knows? Maybe they might end up in Heaven as well. No one knows except God, who will and who will not end up in Heaven.

Charlie24 · Mar 14, 2020

SarahsKnight said:
Love this generic, vague, shutdown tactic:
"If you disagree with my personal doctrine, you go against God!"

Good way to get the weaker-minded brethren who seek the truth to stop pursuing and asking questions.

All the preachers I know preach from a scriptural text, and continue to use several texts relevant to the subject as they proceed.

There is no shortage of text where Christ preached on hell.

Maybe you heard something from a preacher that wasn't scriptural?

Saint Steven · Mar 14, 2020

Basil the Great said:
Yes, some of us could well be wrong about Hell, in terms of how many go there and how bad it might be and if it even exists. Then again, what about this scenario? What will some of you think if you get to Heaven and you see a lot of Jews there and Muslims there and you find out that they made it there because they loved God and their fellow man?

The end of Matthew chapter 25 would support that idea.
I think it could be quite different than what we tend to anticipate.
Not only individuals but also nations and kings will be "judged".

Saint Steven · Mar 14, 2020

Charlie24 said:
There is no shortage of text where Christ preached on hell.

Fortunately, a little bit goes a long way. - lol

Seems funny.
The stores ran out of toilet paper, but there "is no shortage of text where Christ preached on hell." We really need to get our priorities straight.

martymonster · Mar 14, 2020

Charlie24 said:
All the preachers I know preach from a scriptural text, and continue to use several texts relevant to the subject as they proceed.

There is no shortage of text where Christ preached on hell.

Maybe you heard something from a preacher that wasn't scriptural?

No, there is not shortage of texts, that may be interpreted as being about hell. That is two distinctly different things. You are simply not allowed to take a verse of scripture and try and interpret it. You can only let scripture interpret scripture. Anything less will lead into error.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

To take a verse of scripture and assign to it one's own meaning, is merely guess work. That's a big no no!

Saint Steven · Mar 14, 2020

cyphercat said:
The bible says we are saved from God's wrath on judgment day. Jesus Christ died to save us from this wrath.
Why do we deconstruct how fiery or how hot hell is? Or what it is?
If God's wrath isn't that bad, then what was the point of Christ dying? If Hell is something that we can minimize and look at as something endurable, then the gospel is a sham.
All this talk about hell seems to be heading in that direction.

That's the lie we all grew up with. That Christ saved us from hell.
Receive the free gift of salvation. (or you're toast) - lol

Brad Jersak - The Gospel in Chairs - Session 1 (FGC 2016)
Credits: Forgotten Gospel Conference - www.theforgottengospel.com

Brad Jersak is an author and teacher based in Abbotsford, BC, where he attends Fresh Wind Christian Fellowship and serves as Reader at All Saints of North America Monastery. His heart is to share the good news that God is Love and that God’s love was shown to us perfectly in Jesus of Nazareth.

FineLinen · Mar 14, 2020

cyphercat said:
The bible says we are saved from God's wrath on judgment day. Jesus Christ died to save us from this wrath.

Jesus Christ did NOT die to save us from wrath: Jesus Christ came to bring us Home to the One from whom we have become estranged in Adam!

“Do you believe that the God of Jesus loves you beyond worthiness and unworthiness, beyond fidelity and infidelity—that he loves you in the morning sun and in the evening rain—that he loves you when your intellect denies it, your emotions refuse it, your whole being rejects it. Do you believe that God loves without condition or reservation and loves you this moment as you are and not as you should be.” - Brennan Manning-

Charlie24 · Mar 14, 2020

martymonster said:
No, there is not shortage of texts, that may be interpreted as being about hell. That is two distinctly different things. You are simply not allowed to take a verse of scripture and try and interpret it. You can only let scripture interpret scripture. Anything less will lead into error.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

To take a verse of scripture and assign to it one's own meaning, is merely guess work. That's a big no no!

Maybe you should ask your preacher how he came to that conclusion with that particular text. I do it from time to time with my pastor when things don't seem to click for me.

If he is a true man of God he will sit with you during regular church hours and explain.

You may be surprised, as I was, how the scripture can fit and pass you by.

martymonster · Mar 14, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Maybe you should ask your preacher how he came to that conclusion with that particular text. I do it from time to time with my pastor when things don't seem to click for me.

If he is a true man of God he will sit with you during regular church hours and explain.

You may be surprised, as I was, how the scripture can fit and pass you by.

Preacher? No, sorry....Christ is my preacher. He teaches what his word means. I don't need the teachings of men.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Psa 144:1 A Psalm of David. Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:

Saint Steven · Mar 14, 2020

Charlie24 said:
If he is a true man of God he will sit with you during regular church hours and explain.

Right, because a "true man of God" only works when he is at work. After that, you're on your own. - lol

Charlie24 · Mar 14, 2020

martymonster said:
Preacher? No, sorry....Christ is my preacher. He teaches what his word means. I don't need the teachings of men.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Psa 144:1 A Psalm of David. Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:

OK, I understand now. How do you explain "forsaking not the gathering together?"

Heb. 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

What if you’re wrong about hell?

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