what if ther had been no secular influence?

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herev

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Of the first seven ecumenical councils, all of them seem to have been plagued with secular political influence.
1. Is there any one particular council that was more lacking in this influence?

2. And with regards to all of them, would the outcome, hence our doctrine and theology be any different had the councils been completely free of secular influence?

Just been thinking lately of the influence of Constantine on the Nicene Creed (same subtance thought or homoousia--sorry for the spelling if it's wrong--too lazy to confirm:blush: ). Would we proclaim what we currently do without his input?

What do you think?
Tommy
 

ufonium2

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God put us in this world. He gave us free will, which we immediately used to create the secular world that we live in to this day. Christianity does not now nor did it ever exist in a vacuum. We are a part of this world, this world is part of God's Kingdom, and being of this world does not make something inherently evil or wrong. I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit uses "secular influence" all the time, or else it would be really hard to convert people who didn't already believe.

That said, I believe the proclamations of the 7 Ecumenical Councils are absolutely correct. So, whatever influences were there, they were meant to be there. So to me, there's really no "what if" to the scenario.
 
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herev

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ufonium2 said:
God put us in this world. He gave us free will, which we immediately used to create the secular world that we live in to this day. Christianity does not now nor did it ever exist in a vacuum. We are a part of this world, this world is part of God's Kingdom, and being of this world does not make something inherently evil or wrong. I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit uses "secular influence" all the time, or else it would be really hard to convert people who didn't already believe.

That said, I believe the proclamations of the 7 Ecumenical Councils are absolutely correct. So, whatever influences were there, they were meant to be there. So to me, there's really no "what if" to the scenario.
thanks for the reply. I saw a thread earlier that suggested if we really do think that Christian History is important, we should be willing to start more threads for discussion, so that is why I suggest the What if scenario--to generate discussion. Hope that didn't offend you. If it did, I apologize
Tommy
 
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SolomonVII

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herev said:
Of the first seven ecumenical councils, all of them seem to have been plagued with secular political influence.
...
2. And with regards to all of them, would the outcome, hence our doctrine and theology be any different had the councils been completely free of secular influence?

....

What do you think?
Tommy
Today, Christian doctrine is considered by many secular leaders to be too unimportant to be worth considering in policy. There is no need for unity in dogma for political unity.
Today situation serves as a very good example then of what would happen to Christian dogma without secular political influence. This is to say that there are thousands upons thousands of versions of Christianity, some similar, and some vastly different to anything that has come before. More importantly, huge proportions of the population have either stopped believing, or continue to go to churches based more on concern for the children's moral development than because of genuine belief.

In this sense then, political influence can be seen to be not a plague on Christianity, but an asset. Just as was the case in the pre-nicene church, when any ecclesiastical authority was very weak over the church as a whole, different teachings abound in today's world as well without a singular widely recognized authority having the power or legitimacy to resolve differences.

This is an interesting question though. Constantine's political needs in effect provided the necessary glue that bonded Christianity into a unified belief system. It would be difficult to imagine how a universally accepted scripture or Christian dogma could have developed without his strong secular leadership in the process.

But since politics and spirituality became so interdependant upon each other, with inevitable political divisions arising, so too did there develop cracks in the religious doctrines allong these very same political fault lines. This was as true for the intial schism between east and west, as it later became in the west where the fault lines developed with the growth of nation states either in collusion with, or against the political will of the papacy. Paradoxically then, the same secular forces that were so necessary for the formation of an orthodox Christianity also contained the seeds of Christianities demise in the world of today.
 
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herev

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solomon said:
4

Today, Christian doctrine is considered by many secular leaders to be too unimportant to be worth considering in policy. There is no need for unity in dogma for political unity.
Today situation serves as a very good example then of what would happen to Christian dogma without secular political influence. This is to say that there are thousands upons thousands of versions of Christianity, some similar, and some vastly different to anything that has come before. More importantly, huge proportions of the population have either stopped believing, or continue to go to churches based more on concern for the children's moral development than because of genuine belief.

In this sense then, political influence can be seen to be not a plague on Christianity, but an asset. Just as was the case in the pre-nicene church, when any ecclesiastical authority was very weak over the church as a whole, different teachings abound in today's world as well without a singular widely recognized authority having the power or legitimacy to resolve differences.

This is an interesting question though. Constantine's political needs in effect provided the necessary glue that bonded Christianity into a unified belief system. It would be difficult to imagine how a universally accepted scripture or Christian dogma could have developed without his strong secular leadership in the process.

But since politics and spirituality became so interdependant upon each other, with inevitable political divisions arising, so too did there develop cracks in the religious doctrines allong these very same political fault lines. This was as true for the intial schism between east and west, as it later became in the west where the fault lines developed with the growth of nation states either in collusion with, or against the political will of the papacy. Paradoxically then, the same secular forces that were so necessary for the formation of an orthodox Christianity also contained the seeds of Christianities demise in the world of today.
very insightful, so while we should not be slaves to the secular, we'd not be where we are without its influence? Doesn't God work in mysterious ways.
 
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artybloke

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herev said:
very insightful, so while we should not be slaves to the secular, we'd not be where we are without its influence? Doesn't God work in mysterious ways.

If it wasn't for "secular influence" we wouldn't even have the Bible. The Old Testament bears the evidence of being in dialogue with at least Babylonian and Persian thought, and probably in later works, such as Daniel and Maccabees, with Greek. St Paul obviously shows some knowledge of Greek ideas.

"Being in dialogue" with these influences means just that: the writers took from the surrounding culture, adapted it; but they also critiqued it. However, even the terms in which they critiqued that society were taken from that society. The Creation are a prime narratives are a prime example: based and shaped by earlier stories, they put the very particular insight of Hebrew thought into them. This is the idea that God is the creator of the whole world, and everything in it: there is no conflict in the heavens, and human beings are not just pawns but free creatures. They retold the familiar stories in ways that would reflect that.

Even the Psalms are not original in form: in fact, the form goes back to the priestess and queen Enheduenna, who was a Sumerian dedicated to the goddess Ishtar. The psalmists use the form to praise God.

There are other ideas adapted from the cultures around them too, not least the figure of Satan, brought in from Zoroastrianism and given a lesser role (in that religion, he is almost equal to God; in the Hebrew religion he's the accuser of human beings.)

There are bad consequences of secular influence as well as good ones, though the idea itself isn't bad. I personally think that a lot of the church's obsession with sexual sin stems from Gnostic dualism, probably imported from Zoroastrianism and possibly from the mystery religions. Sometimes, because the church has to argue against something (extreme dualism, in this case) it takes on many of the characteristics of its opponents. In the case of Gnosticism, the extreme body=evil, spirit=good dualism has infected the church to such an extent that sex itself is almost seen as inherently evil (it's not many centuries ago when marriages were conducted at the church door, for fear of contamination.) Hence, the Catholic doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity: the idea that the virgin Mary could have sex seems anathema if it's basically sinful. If it's no more sinful than eating and drinking (but can be taken to excess, and that's sinful) then what's the problem with Mary having sex with her husband? Or anyone else having sex with their life-partner?
 
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Jay2004

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Of the first seven ecumenical councils, all of them seem to have been plagued with secular political influence.
1. Is there any one particular council that was more lacking in this influence?

2. And with regards to all of them, would the outcome, hence our doctrine and theology be any different had the councils been completely free of secular influence?

Just been thinking lately of the influence of Constantine on the Nicene Creed (same subtance thought or homoousia--sorry for the spelling if it's wrong--too lazy to confirm:blush: ). Would we proclaim what we currently do without his input?




I don't think is was as much secular influence as you think there was..
Constantine was either a sympathizer of the Arian heresy, (because his mom was a supporter of this heresie). But if the council of Nicea succumbed to Constantine's views we may all be Arians. Don't jump the gun on secular influence too fast..
Constantine let the council decide without his influence....
 
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ClementofRome

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May I throw a monkey wrench into the discussion? I am not necessarily advocating what I am about to say, it just came to mind as I read this thread. I would be interested in reading what others have to say about the following:

It seems to me that the Ecumenical Councils have very little influence today in that we live in a literate culture that has access to scripture in our vernacular. I can now read the Bible for myself (and in my case, I am able to work in both Greek and Hebrew) and I am able to make doctrinal decisions for myself as an educated and literate Christian. Obviously, the danger in this is "heresy." Also, one's worldview will tend to "color" interpretational outcomes. This being the case, do we NEED the work of the Councils or even the authority of the "church" to prevent chaos?
 
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SolomonVII

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ClementofRome said:
May I throw a monkey wrench into the discussion? I am not necessarily advocating what I am about to say, it just came to mind as I read this thread. I would be interested in reading what others have to say about the following:

It seems to me that the Ecumenical Councils have very little influence today in that we live in a literate culture that has access to scripture in our vernacular. I can now read the Bible for myself (and in my case, I am able to work in both Greek and Hebrew) and I am able to make doctrinal decisions for myself as an educated and literate Christian. Obviously, the danger in this is "heresy." Also, one's worldview will tend to "color" interpretational outcomes. This being the case, do we NEED the work of the Councils or even the authority of the "church" to prevent chaos?
The national churches that arose as a result of the reformation, counter-reformation, and the schisms are now even further breaking down into 'personal' churches in which everybody and nobody is an authority on spritual matters. If the goal is a 'catholic' or universal church, as we all, as credal christians, profess to believe in, my opinion would be that yes, we do need to recognize some common authority in order to prevent chaos.

On the whole, biblical literacy is a very good thing, but the works of the bible are far too rich for any one person to fully come to terms with. Their is a practical need for us all to submit to a greater community and to come to an understanding in unison with the fuller Body of Christ of which we are all members of.

Unfortunately, what is most standing in the way of such a reunification and a desired unity of the faith community is our unwillingness to forgive. Molehills of doctrinal differences are turned in mountains as often as not in order to avoid such reconciliation. Our lack of trust of each other, built as it has been or centuries of egregious crimes against each other and horrendous slander of each others faiths, actually demands for there to be differences, even when no substantial differences exist.

To be able to submit to any authority we first need to trust that that authority holds the interests of the entire fold dear to its heart. But in order to start rebuilding such a trust, we must first actively seek out each other's forgiveness, and unbind each other from the sins that have so often been committed in the name of one's faith.

At the advent of the eucemenical council in which a common canon was being established, it is perhaps interesting to note that Jerome, who had perhaps the most advanced knowledge of scripture of all people in his day, did not have his views prevail. Nevertheless, in the interest of Christian unity, he was more than willing to submit to the larger Christian community and stand with their decision to allow works into the bible that he personally did not find very inspired or inspiring. Canon and a unified Christian community were not just built upon the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but depended very much on the visions of men such as Jerome who deeply desired that the body of Christ become visibly unified through the visible establishment of one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

Because the existence of men such as Jerome was the norm, a secular authority such as Constantine was able to succeed in his unification efforts. Without such a desire for a unified church, such as seems to be the case today, not even Constantine could succeed into bringing about unity into a fragmented Christian community.

Perhaps then, it would be fair to conclude that it is not our greater knowledge of the biblical tradition in all its richness that is keeping us from communing with each other, but it is our stubbon reluctance to unbind each other from the sins of the past that is tearing the Christian community ever further apart.
 
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RVincent

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If not for secular influence:

  1. We would be celebrating the Christian Passover (1 Cor. 5:7) instead of easter.
  2. Our children would not be hunting eggs in the field, where they "remember their altars and their groves by the green trees upon the high hills." (Jer 17:2)

When Nebucednezzar wrote the fourth chapter of Daniel, he was already converted (see Dan. 4:1-2), thus his writing would not be considered secular.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Of the first seven ecumenical councils, all of them seem to have been plagued with secular political influence.
1. Is there any one particular council that was more lacking in this influence?

2. And with regards to all of them, would the outcome, hence our doctrine and theology be any different had the councils been completely free of secular influence?

Just been thinking lately of the influence of Constantine on the Nicene Creed (same subtance thought or homoousia--sorry for the spelling if it's wrong--too lazy to confirm:blush: ). Would we proclaim what we currently do without his input?

What do you think?
Tommy
Can you imagine how God must laugh when he hears us discuss Him with such smug assurance of our own ability to know the unknowable? God is so much bigger than our many varied theologies!!!
all the ones you refer to in this post were controlled by the enemy of Yahshua, including const. and the ecu.cou. - political or econ influence matters not at all, per se, because politics and econ have no weight for or with a martyr of Yahshua.

sorry, but the crd (s) were written as a compromise, not a breath from G+d (not from Him, not for Truth). they were to consolidate power in the hands of a few who sought to exterminate the true believers and wouldn't even let anyone who knew the truth to speak publicly nor at their councils.
 
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