Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Good for you!I have never had a papal decree.....but if I did, you would be correct to call it bull!!!! God Bless
If not Luther, someone would have said/done something. The time was ripe for a significant upheaval in the social and religious landscape of Europe.
As it stands, not everything that happened during the Reformation was necessarily of the Reformation. The Reformation itself was more-or-less the catalyst that set off a powder keg in Europe that was already ready to blow anyway.
It's simply, in my mind, unlikely that the 16th century wouldn't have seen something happen.
I might even posit that without the rather sober minds of Luther, Melancthon, Calvin (etc) who were willing to engage diplomatically with the powers that be (both ecclesial and secular) the ordeal could have been a far, far more violent one (and it was already pretty violent with the Radicals spurring on the Peasant's Revolt and fanning the flames of fanaticism and rebellion)
-CryptoLutheran
If I may say...in what sense?I know the dark ages was a great time for Christians
Gxg (G²);64653769 said:...many of the Reformers later on had slaves ) since it is a historical fact that the Protestant Reformation and the Inquisition both indirectly influenced the development of the Transatlantic Slave Trade ...in light of how in different nations, religious persecution by Catholics of Protestant sects, Protestant persecution of Catholics, and the Spanish Inquisition of Jews and other non-Christians led people to migrate to the New World to escape religious persecution and many Christians believed that the conversion of the indigenous population to Christianity was imperative ....some in Africa converting others to the beliefs of the Reformers by force and leading to situations as we see today .
We see how Dutch missionaries were active in trying to convert Taiwan's population to Christianity - in light of how Protestant missionaries established schools where Biblical religion and the Dutch language were taught - and by 1650, the Dutch had converted 5,900 of the island's inhabitants to Protestant Christianity.....with he same missionary efforts also undertaken in the other Dutch territories......as missionaries were sent by the Dutch East India Company in the Far East to the Malaysians in the early seventeenth
century (alongside Indonesia) - meaning that in the Dutch controlled territories, there was clear Protestant Christian rule, and there were efforts made to evangelize the native populations. For during the era of Protestant Reformation, in the continents of Asia and Africa, British colonial rule was not yet as extensive as that of the Dutch...nor did it do as much good in promoting the Reformed faith as the Dutch.. But in the aftermath of the Protestant Reformation, British rule was to prove more enduring, and its effects more extensive.
And yet we already see where the Dutch Calvinists - especially in places like South Africa - were EXTREMELY uncomfortable with racial diversity (due to the Eurocentric focus) and we know what came of that when seeing the history of treatment with blacks in South Africa.since the Dutch - like the Puritans - have seen South Africa as a promised land, a New Jerusalem... ( more here and here in The Gospel According to the Marginalized - Page 71 where the "eclectic" sources of South Africa's racial ideology are examined- "Dutch neo-Calvinism, German Romanism and other issues).
Very excellent points - ones I had not considered before and thank you for sharing themWhere the Bibles chained in many churches? Yes. Why? Was it to keep the peasant from having one? No. It was keeping someone from stealing them, because a Bible during that time was a small fortune. On average it took a monk about 20 years to copy the Bible. 20 years! Not a few hours, not a few days, not a few weeks, not even a few years. Bibles were in short supply and it wasn't possible for individuals to have their own, unless they spent the time copying the words of the Bible for themselves.
Instead of giving the people their own individual Bibles, the Church did the next best thing. She read it to them, in the Mass and in the Divine Office each day. She illustrated it to them through the Sacred Art found in the Churches. She sang it to them through the Sacred Music offered.
The people then probably knew the Bible better than the people today, even though everyone has access to the Bible. Because the people then knew just how precious the Word of God is.
Gxg (G²);65054729 said:Very excellent points - ones I had not considered before and thank you for sharing them
It's hard to consider economics in the same vein as scripture and traditionYour welcome. People have a problem of always equating what we have now to another period of time. Thus when they hear that Bibles were chained in the churches, they just assume that the Church just withheld those Bibles and prevented the people from getting their hands on them, because today Bibles are so easy to get. That hasn't always been the case.
I mean I got probably 10 to 15 Bibles at my house, could you imagine how much they would be worth 1000 years ago? If they were written in Latin of course.
Your welcome. People have a problem of always equating what we have now to another period of time. Thus when they hear that Bibles were chained in the churches, they just assume that the Church just withheld those Bibles and prevented the people from getting their hands on them, because today Bibles are so easy to get. That hasn't always been the case.
I mean I got probably 10 to 15 Bibles at my house, could you imagine how much they would be worth 1000 years ago? If they were written in Latin of course.
Please note that it wasn't just the chaining of bibles in the church that lead people to believe the church was withholding the scriptures.
Bibles were pretty easy to get back then - just not the bibles the Catholic Church wanted people to have - and not just because of heretical teachings.
Back in college, when I was LCMS, I took a class at Xavier University on the Reformation. It was a very balanced class taught by a Jesuit priest. Once he and I were discussing this issue and he surprised me by saying that if Luther had arrived on the scene anytime before Hus, the Reformation would have been kept inside the Church. In fact, he thought it might have been likely that there would have been a lay order of 'Luther-inians".
Now that's what I call Bull. Got anything to back it up?Please note that it wasn't just the chaining of bibles in the church that lead people to believe the church was withholding the scriptures.
Bibles were pretty easy to get back then - just not the bibles the Catholic Church wanted people to have - and not just because of heretical teachings.
Please note that it wasn't just the chaining of bibles in the church that lead people to believe the church was withholding the scriptures.
Bibles were pretty easy to get back then - just not the bibles the Catholic Church wanted people to have - and not just because of heretical teachings.
Now that's what I call Bull. Got anything to back it up?
Like I asked before. Do you have a problem with your church using Catholic Bibles? I have never seen a Cathlic Bible in a Protestant church. Have you?Namely your church's list of banned books. There's a good number of bibles on that list. If they were so hard to get anyway, why bother banning them?
Well considering most 'common men' couldn't read... I guess in your world they shouldn't have the opportunity to at least hear the Word of God, if they couldn't read.I love you can use the narrative to make your church so loving and gracious in that "she read the common man the scriptures".
So you think all people who cannot read are damned?Bah. How can one be like a Berean, as the bible tells us, if you can never actually read what the bible tells us?
Very astute observation - seeing how much politics often alters how well someone is or isn't ....and because we don't know the nature of political platforms, we end up thinking someone was more important than they really were - but they could have been just like anyone else.Back in college, when I was LCMS, I took a class at Xavier University on the Reformation. It was a very balanced class taught by a Jesuit priest. Once he and I were discussing this issue and he surprised me by saying that if Luther had arrived on the scene anytime before Hus, the Reformation would have been kept inside the Church. In fact, he thought it might have been likely that there would have been a lay order of 'Luther-inians".
Back in college, when I was LCMS, I took a class at Xavier University on the Reformation. It was a very balanced class taught by a Jesuit priest. Once he and I were discussing this issue and he surprised me by saying that if Luther had arrived on the scene anytime before Hus, the Reformation would have been kept inside the Church. In fact, he thought it might have been likely that there would have been a lay order of 'Luther-inians".
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?