What if Jesus was just a regular guy? (And other thoughs on religion)

[Stupified]

Firstly, you'll have to bear with me here. This might not be a cohesive thread or even a coherent one, but I need throw this out there just as much as I need someone to converse with.

I'm 20 years old, and I've been a Christian for as many years of that as you can consciously make that choice. I went to church, went to a Christian high school, did all the good Christian stuff. I've never been a model Christian - I've got my faults - but I think I've been a decent enough guy in my lifetime. Lately though, in the last year or two, I've been doing a lot of, shall we say, truth searching?

I do believe in a higher power, I really do. There are just too many gaps in science and there's the fact that humans are just drawn to the idea of a God; it's almost like we know inherently that something's out there. Anyway, my problem is not with God, but rather with religion. I suppose the easiest way to do this would be to break this down into several points:

• How could an all powerful God expect everyone on Earth to follow HIS religion (assuming Christianity is His religion)?
• Would God condemn those who worshiped their own god, but never came in contact with the "real" God? Mesopotamia is a small sliver of the world and contained only a fraction of its population. Surely no God would condemn 70% of the Earth just because they weren't lucky enough to be born in the right geographic region.
• Why would an all powerful God need to sacrifice himself, essentially, in human form to save humanity? It doesn't make any sense. God has no reason to be romantic or dramatic.

• Jesus - What if he was just an extraordinarily charismatic human? It's happened before. Even today, when "nutjobs" begin proclaiming that they are the son of God returned, the world shuns and rejects them. Why did that not happen to Jesus? Was it just the right place at the right time, or was he the true son of God.

• Assuming there is only one god, the Christian God, and that he is well aware of our many religions we've created on earth, would He be understanding and accept all worshipers?
• If you accept all worshipers, why not just accept all good people, or even everybody?
• If you don't accept all worshipers, how cruel is that?

These are just a few of the thoughts that have been whirling through my head over the last several months. Personally, I'd like to think that God, having created us, understands us and loves us, and (regardless of what religion we follow or what "god" we pray to) accepts us. I'd like to think that God wouldn't make anyone (yes, anyone) suffer unbearable pain for eternity. I think I would rather humanity never have been birthed, than to have us condemned to Hell because we act as humans and not as angels. We didn't fall from grace, we simply are.

I'd also like to think that Jesus really was the son of God and Christianity really is the one true religion, but I haven't managed to convince myself of that yet.


Please, I'd like to get your thoughts on this. Perhaps words of wisdom or a good debate. I'll be checking this regularly over the next week as long as I'm not too busy so I'll try to respond to you if I need to clarify my thoughts further. I've had a lot of them lately


And can a moderator or anyone edit the title? Typos... (thoughts on religion*)

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

..Anyway, my problem is not with God, but rather with religion...

• How could an all powerful God expect everyone on Earth to follow HIS religion (assuming Christianity is His religion)?
• Would God condemn those who worshiped their own god, but never came in contact with the "real" God? Mesopotamia is a small sliver of the world and contained only a fraction of its population. Surely no God would condemn 70% of the Earth just because they weren't lucky enough to be born in the right geographic region.
• Why would an all powerful God need to sacrifice himself, essentially, in human form to save humanity? It doesn't make any sense. God has no reason to be romantic or dramatic.

• Jesus - What if he was just an extraordinarily charismatic human? It's happened before. Even today, when "nutjobs" begin proclaiming that they are the son of God returned, the world shuns and rejects them. Why did that not happen to Jesus? Was it just the right place at the right time, or was he the true son of God.

• Assuming there is only one god, the Christian God, and that he is well aware of our many religions we've created on earth, would He be understanding and accept all worshipers?
• If you accept all worshipers, why not just accept all good people, or even everybody?
• If you don't accept all worshipers, how cruel is that?

These are just a few of the thoughts that have been whirling through my head over the last several months. Personally, I'd like to think that God, having created us, understands us and loves us, and (regardless of what religion we follow or what "god" we pray to) accepts us. I'd like to think that God wouldn't make anyone (yes, anyone) suffer unbearable pain for eternity. I think I would rather humanity never have been birthed, than to have us condemned to Hell because we act as humans and not as angels. We didn't fall from grace, we simply are.

I'd also like to think that Jesus really was the son of God and Christianity really is the one true religion, but I haven't managed to convince myself of that yet.


Please, I'd like to get your thoughts on this. Perhaps words of wisdom or a good debate. I'll be checking this regularly over the next week as long as I'm not too busy so I'll try to respond to you if I need to clarify my thoughts further. I've had a lot of them lately


And can a moderator or anyone edit the title? Typos... (thoughts on religion*)

1. Why are you a Christian? Please tell me your reasons. (There is an objective to my question)

2. If you are a father with children and own your own home. Would you expect all your children to follow your house rules? Yes or No? If yes, why?

3. No, God will not condemn those who were forbidden to hear about Jesus or talk about Jesus, e.g some Muslims and people living in the darkest part of Amazon etc. Through creation God can be seen and nobody has an excuse, Romans 1:20. And all truth lovers will be saved and only those who willfully hated and rejected truth will perish, Read 2 Thess 2:10

4. Why and how do you love someone? Does it make sense how love works? How can matter exist in the universe? Where did it come from and was it eternal? If not, who created it and where did they come from? Just because something doesn't make sense, does it make it untrue?

5. If Jesus wasn't the son of God, then how come he was resurrected to life and walked on water and performed miracles? Unless you doubt that happened?

6. Do you believe the story of Jesus is untrue and that Jesus was a nutjob? What proof do you have Jesus was? Define nutjob.

7. Who is good? And what makes a person good?

8. Would you accept all people who wanted to come and live in your house? Even murders, haters, evil people who hated you? Yes or No? If no, why not? And why would you expect and demand God to? The Universe is God's "house".

 

[Stupified]

1. Why are you a Christian? Please tell me your reasons. (There is an objective to my question)

That's how I was brought up.

2. If you are a father with children and own your own home. Would you expect all your children to follow your house rules? Yes or No? If yes, why?

Of course. However I couldn't expect the kids in the household next to me to follow my rules if they had never heard them before.

4. Why and how do you love someone? Does it make sense how love works? How can matter exist in the universe? Where did it come from and was it eternal? If not, who created it and where did they come from? Just because something doesn't make sense, does it make it untrue?

Of course not. But God gave us brains in order to think. Leaving something as important as this at simply "it's true but it doesn't make sense" cannot work for me.

5. If Jesus wasn't the son of God, then how come he was resurrected to life and walked on water and performed miracles? Unless you doubt that happened?

If I could only have one wish granted in the entire world, with no rules, it would be to have a time machine set to the ~30 years of his lifetime. So yes, I doubt that. I don't doubt Alexander the Great's feats, or Caesar's, or other historical figures, but personally I do not take the Bible as a historically accurate text unless it has other contemporaries that confirm it. Are there any legitimate outside sources that also claim that Jesus performed those miracles? (I don't know, so that's not a rhetorical question)

6. Do you believe the story of Jesus is untrue and that Jesus was a nutjob? What proof do you have Jesus was? Define nutjob.

I do not believe Jesus was a nutjob; I believe he was a very smart man. I was referring to the self-proclaimed prophets and sons of God that pop up every few years throughout the world, whom society always labels as nutjobs. I was asking why society shuns those people now, but Jesus was accepted.

7. Who is good? And what makes a person good?

"Good" is a subjective and human term, but I think you understand what I mean by it. There are certain morals that society has deemed good, whether due to religion or just human nature, and that's what I mean by "good." Just like if I were to say "evil," I would be meaning things that are the antithesis of those accepted morals.

8. Would you accept all people who wanted to come and live in your house? Even murders, haters, evil people who hated you? Yes or No? If no, why not? And why would you expect and demand God to? The Universe is God's "house".

I'll turn the question on you: If you had a child who was a murderer, and who rebelled against you and hated you, would you still love them and allow them into your home?

"All people"... What that means to me is something completely different than what it means to God. People are just my brethren and companions, and I have no real connection to most of them, but to God, we aren't just "people" but His children.

Responses in bold.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

That's how I was brought up.

So you are a Christian because you were told to be one? Don't you love Jesus with all your heart?

Of course. However I couldn't expect the kids in the household next to me to follow my rules if they had never heard them before.

Once they heard the rules, would you demand and expect them to follow your rules whilst living in your house?

Of course not. But God gave us brains in order to think. Leaving something as important as this at simply "it's true but it doesn't make sense" cannot work for me.

Did you know that most people won't be in heaven? The reason is that heaven wasn't for them! In fact, if they are given a free ticket to enter, they would be eternally miserable there! So there is a possibility that applies to you as well. Not everyone would enjoy heaven.

If I could only have one wish granted in the entire world, with no rules, it would be to have a time machine set to the ~30 years of his lifetime. So yes, I doubt that. I don't doubt Alexander the Great's feats, or Caesar's, or other historical figures, but personally I do not take the Bible as a historically accurate text unless it has other contemporaries that confirm it. Are there any legitimate outside sources that also claim that Jesus performed those miracles? (I don't know, so that's not a rhetorical question)

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Historians who were contemporary with Jesus, or who lived shortly after him, mentioned him either directly or indirectly in their writings. The Roman historian Tacitus—who is considered to be one of the more reliable historians of the ancient world, and who was no Christian sympathiser—wrote the following account of the great fire of Rome, which some had blamed on Nero because it was known that he was eager to get rid of the slums:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition [probably the story of Jesus’ resurrection], thus checked for the moment, again broke out in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular ([/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Annals [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]15.44).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]There are also two references from Suetonius, the chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian who ruled from [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]AD[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]117 – 138. (N.B. the Hebrew word, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Messiah[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] is translated [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Christ[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] in Greek and [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Christus[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], or [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Chrestus[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], in Latin.)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from the city ([/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Claudius[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], 25).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]After the great fire at Rome…. punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief ([/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Nero[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], 16). [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Pliny the Younger, a Roman author and administrator, described the worship practices of the early Christians in a letter to Emperor Trajan about [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]AD[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]112:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to do any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind ([/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Letters[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 10:96).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In his reply to Pliny, Emperor Trajan gives the following guidelines for punishing these people who did not honour the gods of Rome:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]No search should be made for these people; when they are denounced and found guilty they must be punished; with the restriction, however, that when the party denies himself to be a Christian, and shall give proof that he is not (that is, by adoring our gods) he shall be pardoned on the ground of repentance, even though he may have formerly incurred suspicion (ibid., 10:97).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In his book, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A Kaleidoscope of Diamonds[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], Desmond Ford wrote:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The battle over the historicity of Christ has been fought and won. No historian of note today denies it. The evidence from ancient documents has been marshalled by F.F. Bruce in his [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Sir J.G. Frazer, no friend of evangelical Christianity, declared “The doubts which have been cast upon the historical reality of Jesus are, in my judgment, unworthy of serious attention” (vol 1, pp. 79 – 80).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We can say, in conclusion, that even if we didn’t have the New Testament, there is evidence from other sources that Christ was an authentic historical person. This Christ was executed by the Romans and had followers, known as Christians, who worshipped him as a divine being. These Christians committed themselves to live godly lives, but were despised and persecuted because they refused to worship any of the pagan gods.[/FONT]

I do not believe Jesus was a nutjob; I believe he was a very smart man. I was referring to the self-proclaimed prophets and sons of God that pop up every few years throughout the world, whom society always labels as nutjobs. I was asking why society shuns those people now, but Jesus was accepted.

What nutjobs in society are rejected? And WHO rejects them? Everyone or some?

"Good" is a subjective and human term, but I think you understand what I mean by it. There are certain morals that society has deemed good, whether due to religion or just human nature, and that's what I mean by "good." Just like if I were to say "evil," I would be meaning things that are the antithesis of those accepted morals.

What does good mean to you personally?

I'll turn the question on you: If you had a child who was a murderer, and who rebelled against you and hated you, would you still love them and allow them into your home?

NO NO NO! That old trick won't work on me! Please answer my question! Would you allow some evil person who hated you into your house to live with you? Yes or No? Stop running from my question!

 

[Stupified]

So you are a Christian because you were told to be one? Don't you love Jesus with all your heart?

Yes. I feel like a vast majority of Christians, American Christians at least, are only so because they were raised to be one. It's terrible.

Perhaps once, but I can't say that I do now. I can't even say that I think Jesus is the son of God, that's what I'm trying to resolve right now, more or less.

Once they heard the rules, would you demand and expect them to follow your rules whilst living in your house?

If I could convince them that my rules were correct, or that it was "my way or the highway," then yes.

Did you know that most people won't be in heaven? The reason is that heaven wasn't for them! In fact, if they are given a free ticket to enter, they would be eternally miserable there! So there is a possibility that applies to you as well. Not everyone would enjoy heaven.

Haha, I must admit this is the first time someone has ever told me Heaven might not be for me. What is the alternative? Eternal damnation? Eternal unconsciousness? Purgatory?

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Historians who were contemporary with Jesus[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[Snip]
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We can say, in conclusion, that even if we didn’t have the New Testament, there is evidence from other sources that Christ was an authentic historical person. [/FONT]

Excellent sources. I am something Romanophile so I've been interested in whether any of the famous historians like Suetonius had any accounts of Jesus.

However, I have never doubted that Jesus was a real, historical person. I mentioned the time machine because I wish I knew if those miracles actually happened. So far, I haven't found any accounts of his miracles that aren't apart of the Gospels.

What nutjobs in society are rejected? And WHO rejects them? Everyone or some?

Google "People claiming to be Jesus" (I can't post URLs yet).
They gather a small following but by and large, society rejects them. I do not know why some people are drawn to them, or why others are not.


What does good mean to you personally?

Loving thy neighbor
Regardless of whether Jesus was the son of God or not, he was a brilliant teacher. You wouldn't treat someone badly if you loved them, and this is a great rule to live by. Live in love.


NO NO NO! That old trick won't work on me! Please answer my question! Would you allow some evil person who hated you into your house to live with you? Yes or No? Stop running from my question!

I'm not running from the question, I just don't think the question has any relevance to God. I am NOTHING like God. I'm mortal, I'm limited, I'm weak and infinitely foolish. God is eternal and all knowing.

.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Haha, I must admit this is the first time someone has ever told me Heaven might not be for me. What is the alternative? Eternal damnation? Eternal unconsciousness? Purgatory?

Well it's true! Most people would hate it and they would be eternally miserable in heaven even if you gave them a free ticket to enter. We have been through this before, millions of angels were already in heaven, yet they become miserable, and stood against God, and eventually were thrown out of heaven!

God and heaven is not for everyone and majority of humans will not be there from their own free will. And even if they got into heaven, they would be eternally unhappy there.

If God forced Satan, his angels and all Atheists and unbelievers into heaven, it would be eternal torment for them there! The truth and reality is that they just won't be happy in heaven, because Jesus is not completely in their hearts to begin with.

I am being serious.. ask yourself honestly... would you be happy in heaven? Maybe not! Maybe you would be miserable there even if you got a free ticket to enter.

Many Christians differ on this topic as you know, but I believe eternal unconsciousness is the destiny for the lost. But don't forget, you cannot fool God to get into heaven if your heart is not for Jesus already. You cannot trick your way into heaven...so ask yourself truthfully... do you sincerely love and trust Jesus with all your soul and might and heart? If not, then you cannot trick God to get into heaven...besides I think you won't be happy there anyway by the sounds of it.

And remember, we have been through this before, millions of angels were already in heaven, yet they become miserable, and stood against God, and eventually were thrown out of heaven and they would be eternally miserable in God forced them to live in heaven! So even if you got into heaven, after a short time you may become very unhappy there and not want to be in heaven! Have you thought about that?

 

[wayseer]

How could an all powerful God expect everyone on Earth to follow HIS religion (assuming Christianity is His religion)?

He doesn't. He said, when I be lifted up I will draw ALL men.

]Would God condemn those who worshiped their own god, but never came in contact with the "real" God? Mesopotamia is a small sliver of the world and contained only a fraction of its population. Surely no God would condemn 70% of the Earth just because they weren't lucky enough to be born in the right geographic region.

If God is Love then probably not I would have thought.

Why would an all powerful God need to sacrifice himself, essentially, in human form to save humanity? It doesn't make any sense. God has no reason to be romantic or dramatic.

It has to do with a failed sacrificial system run by humans. God decided to cut to the chase, so to speak.

Jesus - What if he was just an extraordinarily charismatic human? It's happened before. Even today, when "nutjobs" begin proclaiming that they are the son of God returned, the world shuns and rejects them. Why did that not happen to Jesus? Was it just the right place at the right time, or was he the true son of God.

So charismatic that his disciples fled and hid in fear of their lives?

Assuming there is only one god, the Christian God, and that he is well aware of our many religions we've created on earth, would He be understanding and accept all worshipers?

I don't know. Why not ask him yourself.

If you accept all worshipers, why not just accept all good people, or even everybody?

Another question for God.

If you don't accept all worshipers, how cruel is that?

Pretty cruel.