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What if he forget OR refuse ?

Rangerainy

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Hi, I'm new here.

I was speaking with one of my atheist friend about what's going to happen us after death. He was christian couple of years ago though.

He argued that he doesn't need to take Jesus as his savior and lord, coz the only thing that would happen to him is to be expelled from God's Love as we say. He claimed that he could go back to earth then.

I kinda find that a good point to start with ..

What if someone REFUSES or FORGET to take Jesus as his savior and lord ? will he be coming back to earth ?

Any ideas...
 
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Hi, I'm new here.

I was speaking with one of my atheist friend about what's going to happen us after death. He was christian couple of years ago though.

He argued that he doesn't need to take Jesus as his savior and lord, coz the only thing that would happen to him is to be expelled from God's Love as we say. He claimed that he could go back to earth then.

I kinda find that a good point to start with ..

What if someone REFUSES or FORGET to take Jesus as his savior and lord ? will he be coming back to earth ?

Any ideas...

Where did the idea of being sent back to Earth come from? I was under the impression that Christians believed people who did not accept Jesus as their lord and savior were sent to hell.
 
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ebia

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Rangerainy said:
Hi, I'm new here.

I was speaking with one of my atheist friend about what's going to happen us after death. He was christian couple of years ago though.

He argued that he doesn't need to take Jesus as his savior and lord, coz the only thing that would happen to him is to be expelled from God's Love as we say. He claimed that he could go back to earth then.

I kinda find that a good point to start with ..

What if someone REFUSES or FORGET to take Jesus as his savior and lord ? will he be coming back to earth ?

Any ideas...

What?

The redeemed and renewed earth is for God's resurrected people. Rejecting the king he is rejecting that kingdom.
 
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ebia

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Rangerainy said:
Hi

So where do those people go. I mean those who forgot or refused to take Jesus as their savior and lord.

Scripture only answers that in metaphors.
It's much more interested in what God is doing to put the world to rights than explaining exactly the option for those who opt out.

Try reading The Great Divorce.
 
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Rangerainy

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Scripture only answers that in metaphors.
It's much more interested in what God is doing to put the world to rights than explaining exactly the option for those who opt out.

Try reading The Great Divorce.

And this is another reason for some people to be skeptic about Christianity.

Please don't tell me they are not real Christians, leave them alone.

It does more sense if there is heaven and torture as other religions says, so people would fear that torture.
 
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ebia

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Rangerainy said:
And this is another reason for some people to be skeptic about Christianity.
what is and why?

Please don't tell me they are not real Christians, leave them alone.
what are you talking about?

It does more sense if there is heaven and torture as other religions says, so people would fear that torture.
fear isn't a very good motivator. You can't scare virtues into people. Making punishments harsher doesn't improve individuals or communities.

It seems you want your cardboard cut-out model. I suggest taking a look at the fuller, richer, Christian hope.
 
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Rangerainy

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what is and why?

what are you talking about?

fear isn't a very good motivator. You can't scare virtues into people. Making punishments harsher doesn't improve individuals or communities.

It seems you want your cardboard cut-out model. I suggest taking a look at the fuller, richer, Christian hope.

How could you say so.

How come people are wiser than God ???

If someone gives out info about a criminal, he would get a prize. Meanwhile, the criminal would be punished according to his crime.

I can't believe that God provided us with an incomplete set of regulations, and forgot to provide us with anything to deter the KILLER AND THOSE WHO RAPE INNOCENT GIRLS for ex !

I can't believe that God TRUSTED us "the sinner humans" to put rules for those criminals.
 
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food4thought

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Where did the idea of being sent back to Earth come from? I was under the impression that Christians believed people who did not accept Jesus as their lord and savior were sent to hell.

That is what the Bible says. Although I have to say it is complicated because there are several words translated as hell from the greek; and there is legitimate debate as to whether all these words are referring to the final state of the wicked dead. The EXACT nature of the final state of those who reject (not sure what you mean by forget) Jesus is not given unless you take the idea of flames, darkness, and physical corruption ("worm does not die") literally. Personally, I think it is sketchy to take literally statements God makes about a "place" (for lack of a better word) that stands outside of our reality. Look at the descriptions of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:9-27. I think this description is very metaphorical, as the true nature of the new creation is beyond human comprehension, and so is hell.

JMO

I will say, without reservation, that the final state of those who reject Christ is not to be desired. I don't know where your friend got his ideas, Rangerainy... it certainly wasn't from the bible.
 
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Timothew

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Everybody dies right? The only sure things in life are death and taxes.
Death is not that big of a mystery. Dead people lie down and don't breathe, they don't think, they don't experience anything.

According to the bible, Jesus Christ became alive again after he was dead for three days. He offers this resurrection to life to anyone who trusts him for it.

You friend is wrong, he will not be returning to the earth after he dies. According to the bible he will remain dead. It's a shame too, because he also could have eternal life in Christ.
 
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Rangerainy

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"people who did not accept Jesus as their lord and savior were sent to hell."
That is what the Bible says................................. . I don't know where your friend got his ideas, Rangerainy... it certainly wasn't from the bible.

.......................

According to the bible, .........You friend is wrong, he will not be returning to the earth after he dies.

Can you please write down the verses which prove your explanations.

Did you see this video, it has been posted everywhere in the Forums by anonymous ,, the guy in the video was talking about the same thing,

"according to the bible"!

ww.youtube.com/watch?v=FJZUo-bwf0o&context=C33ee774ADOEgsToPDskLnaYZmlTPnyUd5sCP3WxHF
 
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Timothew

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I'm sorry, that video was too long so I didn't watch all of it. Like the bearded man, I learned koine greek so I would have to rely on translations.
Here is why I believe what I believe and why I believe it is true according to the bible.

In the beginning, God created man and woman and they were w/o sin.

The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”

This was God's promise; if you sin, you will die.

Well, Adam and Eve did eat that fruit. The result was they became mortal.
God said "dust you are and to dust you will return".
They became mortal.

Paul talks about this in Romans 5:
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

Here we have the explanation for our mortality. All sinned so all die.
In fact everyone sins, Romans 3:23 says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Then Paul says in Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death. This is just what God said in Genesis. If you eat the fruit you will die. Paul says if you sin you will die.
In many other places this is repeated, such as 2 Thessalonian 1:9 "These pay the penalty of eternal destruction."

But the bible says in John 3:16 that we don't have to perish like this. For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life.

This is why Paul, in the second half of Romans 6:23 says, "But the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our lord." We have all sinned and therefore deserve death (not eternal torture in hell) but we can confess and have our sins forgiven by Christ and receive the gift of eternal life.
 
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aiki

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Hi, I'm new here.

I was speaking with one of my atheist friend about what's going to happen us after death. He was christian couple of years ago though.

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

A genuine Christian does not defect from the faith.

He argued that he doesn't need to take Jesus as his savior and lord, coz the only thing that would happen to him is to be expelled from God's Love as we say. He claimed that he could go back to earth then.

The Bible offers no such option to the unbelieving person. There is heaven or there is hell.

I kinda find that a good point to start with ..

What if someone REFUSES or FORGET to take Jesus as his savior and lord ? will he be coming back to earth ?

Nope.

Any ideas...

Matthew 25:37-46
37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Revelation 14:9-11
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,


Matthew 13:40-43
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


Matthew 13:47-50
47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind,
48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."


And so on.

Selah.
 
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Rangerainy

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I'm sorry, that video was too long so I didn't watch all of it.

Don't be sorry, it's up to you.

This was God's promise; if you sin, you will die.

This was God's promise; if you EAT, you will die
No body mentioned the word "sin" in this place in the Genesis 3

The Serpent is the one who was cursed by God not Eve nor Adam (Gen 3:14). And he is the one who urged Eve to eat and disobey(Gen 3:4,5), and he is one who is still there urging and deceiving the nations to do many things to disobey God (Rev 20:1-3), and he will shut up in the end.

So how come Adam is the one who caused the problem of humanity. The serpent and his satans were there all the time causing people to commit many sins more than Adam.

Also God knew from the start that Eve and Adam were going to eat from the tree, and the satan is the one who will deceive them, because God created them all. OTHERWISE, the GOD who doesn't know what his creatures will do in the future is NOT a GOD, and doesn't deserve to be worshiped.

Here we have the explanation for our mortality. All sinned so all die.
In fact everyone sins, Romans 3:23 says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Here, you're quoting alot from Paul's letters, which many scholars have disputed their authenticity. The OT is more authentic because it was written at the time of Jesus and before that.

I want also to say, how come everyone is a sinner. What about the baby who died before completing his first year ? what was the sin he did ?
 
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Zbigge1031

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This was God's promise; if you EAT, you will die
No body mentioned the word "sin" in the place in the Genesis 3

God commanded them not to eat. To eat the fruit would be to disobey God, which is a sin. Just because the word sin isn't used there doesn't mean it wasn't a sin. In fact, I would argue that it was possibly the only sin they could have committed at that time, as it was the only thing God had commanded them not to do. They pretty much had free reign in Eden.

Here, you're quoting alot from Paul's letters, which many scholars have disputed their authenticity. The OT is more authentic because it was written at the time of Jesus.

No serious scholar doubts Paul wrote Romans. And while there is some dispute to 2 Thessalonians, it is irrelevant. If all scripture is inspired by God, then it matters not who wrote the scripture, only what it says.

I want also to say, how come everyone is a sinner. What about the baby who died before completing his first year ? what was the sin he did ?

There are differences here in what Christians believe. Those who believe that the baby is a sinner usually believe in the concept of original sin, the notion that Adam's sins in the garden have been passed down from generation to generation to all mankind. Others believe that we merely inherit our sinful nature, but we aren't guilty of sin from birth.
 
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hedrick

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So how come Adam is the one who caused the problem of humanity. The serpent and his satans were there all the time causing people to commit many sins more than Adam.

Also God knew from the start that Eve and Adam were going to eat from the tree, and the satan is the one who will deceive, because he created them all. OTHERWISE, the GOD who doesn't know what his creatures will do in the future is NOT a GOD, and doesn't deserve to be worshiped.

Here, you're quoting alot from Paul's letters, which many scholars have disputed their authenticity. The OT is more authentic because it was written at the time of Jesus.

I want also to say, how come everyone is a sinner. What about the baby who died before completing his first year ? what was the sin he did ?


You're raising enough questions here that it's going to be hard to give you a coherent answer. There are several references to punishment or judgement in the NT. Jesus talks about judgement all the time (think if the sheep and the goats, and many other places). The Revelation to John is all about it. Every one of these speaks of judgement, not reincarnation.

I agree that the OT is less explicit about what happens after death.

Ebia is right that the Bible, whether OT or NT, speaks in symbols. So I don't agree with people who think they know the details of what is going to happen when. However the one thing all part of the tradition agree on is that we will all be accountable to God.

I don't see any basis for someone thinking that the worst that could happen is that he will end up back on earth. The concept in the Revelation, and I think even the OT, is that at the end God will bring about a restoration of the earth. (Rev 21, Is 66:22-23; I pick Isaiah sort of at random; most of the prophets have a vision that God will eventually judge the world and restore it). If the Biblical view is right, there won't be anyplace for someone to go back to. There will be just the new creation and destruction. Whether destruction is the second death or eternal torture is less clear I think. But coming back to earth as it is now, no, I don't think there's any room in the Biblical view for that.

I think for an atheist the most dangerous position is "nothing can happen to me; I'm never going to be accountable for what I'm doing." I think many agnostics and atheists think "well, I can't believe that there's really a God, so probably when I die I'm just gone. But I still care about people, and I'm going to live as if they matter." I think there's more hope for the second kind of person to be reached in some way than the first.

When people speak of everyone being a sinner from birth they aren't normally looking specifically at actions. Rather, they're thinking of sin as the attitudes that lead to wrong actions. If you read the Gospels you'll find that Jesus emphasized intent. He wasn't big on lists of sins, but on things like love, forgiveness, etc. Christians think that people are all imperfect. Even the best actions come from mixed motivations. Thus we all need, and have available, God's grace. I have no idea whether God will consider an infant responsible for any specific action they've done. But I do think they are just as much in need of God's grace as an adult, and like an adult, it is available to them. (In fact most Christians think that all infants are saved, but by a special act of God's grace, and not because they are sinless.)
 
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The Serpent is the one who was cursed by God not Eve nor Adam (Gen 3:14). And he is the one who urged Eve to eat and disobey(Gen 3:4,5), and he is one who is still there urging and deceiving the nations to do many things to disobey God (Rev 20:1-3), and he will shut up in the end.

So how come Adam is the one who caused the problem of humanity. The serpent and his satans were there all the time causing people to commit many sins more than Adam.

So, what do YOU think of these two paragraphs ?

There are differences here in what Christians believe. Those who believe that the baby is a sinner usually believe in the concept of original sin, the notion that Adam's sins in the garden have been passed down from generation to generation to all mankind. Others believe that we merely inherit our sinful nature, but we aren't guilty of sin from birth.

WHAT ARE YOUR BELIEVES ?

The first group are NOT right : No one pass sins to sons
(Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

The second group: If the children below 1 year for instance are NOT guilty, then why they die. Do they have to pay wages for nothing ? Is that fairness ?
 
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ChristianT

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So, what do YOU think of these two paragraphs ?



WHAT ARE YOUR BELIEVES ?

The first group are NOT right : No one pass sins to sons
(Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

The second group: If the children below 1 year for instance are NOT guilty, then why they die. Do they have to pay wages for nothing ? Is that fairness ?

They didn't die because of their sins, they died either because

  1. sickness came over them in a place or time when the treatment was not available or even invented, and so their young immune systems could not handle this sickness

  2. a person out of their own desires, aborted the baby and thus caused the cease of development and life in the baby.

However, there are many cases when a miracle happens. In some cases, when a mother tried to abort her baby, by use of some chemical or other "natural" method in a foreign country, God won't let the baby be killed thoughtlessly, and cause the baby to come out, and because of the chemical, there would be no bleeding and the baby wouldn't catch HIV from the mother.

However, He can only do this so many times until He imposes His existence without allowing belief in Him to be a choice.
 
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Rangerainy

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They didn't die because of their sins, they died either because

  1. sickness came over them in a place or time when the treatment was not available or even invented, and so their young immune systems could not handle this sickness
  2. a person out of their own desires, aborted the baby and thus caused the cease of development and life in the baby.

However, there are many cases when a miracle happens. In some cases, when a mother tried to abort her baby, by use of some chemical or other "natural" method in a foreign country, God won't let the baby be killed thoughtlessly, and cause the baby to come out, and because of the chemical, there would be no bleeding and the baby wouldn't catch HIV from the mother.

However, He can only do this so many times until He imposes His existence without allowing belief in Him to be a choice.

????????????????????
 
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