What If Everyone Did It?

[Ceallaigh]

You'd be surprised. I've had A LOT of dissension regarding this topic. Everyone who reads this post suddenly becomes a wise man rending a hundred reasons why Jesus didn't really mean what he said.

But, the point of this thread is to consider what it would be like if we DID actually obey Jesus literally. Do you have any thoughts on that?

From what I've seen no one in either thread is saying Jesus didn't really mean what he said, they're saying they think you don't have a proper understanding of what Jesus really meant.

 

[garee]

Hi all. This post is inspired by some exchanges I had on a different thread about literally obeying the teachings of Jesus in the areas of materialism, helping the poor, working for money, and going into all the world preaching the gospel.

My understanding is that Jesus calls all Christians to obey these teachings quite literally, much in the same way he and his own disciples, (and then thousands of Christians in the book of Acts) did.

There was some feedback expressing some doubt as to whether this was practical or even feasible. What would happen if everyone stopped working for money? What would happen if everyone forsook their possessions and started sharing all things in common? Would the world break down into chaos?

I think the opposite is true; I think we would be practicing Heaven on Earth, just as Jesus said we should pray for in the Lord's prayer (i.e. "Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven").

So, for anyone who has similar questions as to how it could possibly work and what it might look like and whether this really is what God wants, I found this video to be helpful. The narrator presents 2 different approaches to the "what if" question; grumpy and enthusiastic.

I personally tend toward the grumpy explanation (sorry everyone; I'm trying to work on that!) but I was very much encouraged by the enthusiastic explanation which I find difficult to articulate in my own words sometimes, but it is essentially that God wants everyone to work for love. He wants us to use our time, our skills, and our resources to pursue goodness for its own sake rather than using our time and skills to chase after money because we're afraid we'll die if we don't. When you compare the two scenarios, one is infinitely more depressing!

Anyway, I look forward to hearing what people think. Since I've already posted a thread specifically dealing with what the actual teachings are, I would like for people to focus mostly on the concept of what if. For a moment, set aside whatever various cynical points of view you may have about this all being a fantasy or just for someone else and share how it could possibly work if we really tried. What would it look like if every Christian helped one another just because we wanted to, and not for payment?

As you offered. Materialism, helping the poor, working for money, providing food and shelter and going into all the world preaching the gospel all together makes up the gospel. The true fast by which we can be heard on high.

When John was about to leave this world he wondered if he had the proper person of faith in doubt he sent for the answer. . .hearing the results of the gospel removed the previous doubt . Our good works accredited to to our unseen father comfort us as they did comfort John as reveled in John17. Not only is the Spirt of Christ our teacher comforter and guide but he also actively works in us to bring to our new minds the things he has taught us . Again if it tell John, it tells us having the same spirt of faith as it is written. . it works in us. .

Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Again the full gospel. . all of our needs met. Physical and spiritual not seen.

In that way both parables(Luke 7:22 and Isaiah 58:4 ) work together revealing the good news by which we can be heard on high.

Isaiah 58:4-7 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord? Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

 

[A_Thinker]

Is it wrong to work for money if you do not focus on storing it up for yourself ?

I think that this is the correct view.

In no place in scripture, does God speak against working to support oneself and one's family. In fact, the scriptures encourage such responsibility.

OTOH, the scriptures do warn against accumulating excess wealth ...while, simultaneously, showing no active concern for one's fellowman. Jesus' parable about the man who had such a harvest, that he decided to build new and larger barns (rather than distribute his excess to the needy) ... is one such lesson.

The second greatest commandment is ... "You shall love your neighbor as yourself". You will notice two significant points here ... we are to love our neighbors, ... and it is expected that we will also love ourselves.

God does not dissuade us from looking out for ourselves ... so long as we also look out for others to a commensurate amount. In fact, much of what we find in the scriptures ... is guidance for how to navigate our way successfully through this world.

Might I suggest that the key to such an ethos is LOVE ... and that it is through LOVE that we may attend to our needs, and the needs of our families, and the needs of others. In God's economy, we must have the freedom to pursue God's will for our lives, ... and the LOVE necessary to refrain from only living our lives ... for ourselves ...

 

[Ceallaigh]

I think everything we do comes down to God knowing where our heart is at.

 

[John Helpher]

The second greatest commandment is ... "You shall love your neighbor as yourself". You will notice two significant points here ... we are to love our neighbors, ... and it is expected that we will also love ourselves.

You can't say you love your neighbor if you only help them because they pay you for it. If they don't pay, you don't help. That's how the system works.

Also, you don't charge yourself a fee to do stuff for yourself. When it's time to wash the dishes, you don't require a payment from yourself to do so. That's the point of the "love them as you love yourself". If you help yourself without a fee, you should be helping them without a fee. But you've twisted it right around to make the love about yourself.

 

[John Helpher]

From what I've seen no one in either thread is saying Jesus didn't really mean what he said,

But, you yourself have evidenced this attitude.

I think everything we do comes down to God knowing where our heart is at.

It's not really about what Jesus says, but about the feelings in your heart. Jesus didn't say that we should consider obedience according to how we feel about his teachings in our heart. The heart is deceitful above all things and we regularly find reasons to avoid challenge, especially when the challenge is directed at our personal desires and our fears.

This "God knows my heart" thing is just a convenient doctrine; a shield to avoid accountability. The sad thing is that it's true. God really does know our heart; he knows when we use religious jargon to hide from responsibility. That's why he said, "This people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me".

He refers to this again in the Revelation when he says, "Your lukewarmness makes me want to vomit". Neither hot nor cold; unwilling to obey Jesus while at the same time making much ado about how he is Lord. This is why Jesus also said, "Why do you call me, 'Lord', but do not obey me"?

Yes, he does know our heart. It's hardly something that should so casually be used to win an argument. Rather, the realization should cause all of us to fall on our faces and beg for mercy.

 

[John Helpher]

As you offered. Materialism, helping the poor, working for money, providing food and shelter and going into all the world preaching the gospel all together makes up the gospel.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. You've said I've offered something. But then you start a new sentence explaining that working for money is a part of what makes up the gospel. They are two separate sentences, but the way you've put them together makes it sound like I'm saying that working for money is consistent with what Jesus taught.

Did you read my previous posts? I've been saying the opposite the whole time. Would you mind clarifying?

 

[A_Thinker]

You can't say you love your neighbor if you only help them because they pay you for it. If they don't pay, you don't help. That's how the system works.

Also, you don't charge yourself a fee to do stuff for yourself. When it's time to wash the dishes, you don't require a payment from yourself to do so. That's the point of the "love them as you love yourself". If you help yourself without a fee, you should be helping them without a fee. But you've twisted it right around to make the love about yourself.

Working ... to make a living ... allows me to bless myself ... and my family ... plus any number of ministries and people in need.

I have been consistently doing so ... for 40 years or so, in addition to serving freely at my church ... teaching, giving, encouraging, loving ...

 

[John Helpher]

Working ... to make a living ... allows me to bless myself ... and my family ... plus any number of ministries and people in need.

Okay. But, this isn't what Jesus said to do.

in addition to serving freely at my church ... teaching, giving, encouraging, loving ...

Right, except God doesn't want part-time love.

 

[A_Thinker]

Okay. But, this isn't what Jesus said to do.

So ... is it your position that Paul contradicted Jesus when he encouraged believers to quietly work with their hands ?

Also, when Paul taught that if a man didn't work, ... he shouldn't eat ?

Right, except God doesn't want part-time love.

I think God will take whatever love He can get. So much so that He sent His Son to die to get it.

Note that God never gets perfect love from men, ... because men are not perfect. Ergo, as God desires the love of man, He desires even imperfect love ...

 

[garee]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. You've said I've offered something. But then you start a new sentence explaining that working for money is a part of what makes up the gospel. They are two separate sentences, but the way you've put them together makes it sound like I'm saying that working for money is consistent with what Jesus taught.

Did you read my previous posts? I've been saying the opposite the whole time. Would you mind clarifying?

sorry I was saying the materialism, helping the poor, working for money, and going into all the world is preaching the whole gospel.

Preaching takes giving.

Something that cost on our behalf to show we are under his authroity. if we offer 10 % that a good place to start .

In that way if we see someone has a need other than spiritual don't say John 3:16 and walk away as part of the gospel the gospel effects the whole need.

James 1: 27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

 

[John Helpher]

So ... is it your position that Paul contradicted Jesus when he encouraged believers to quietly work with their hands ?

No, of course not, because Paul was not talking about demanding a paycheck in order for the members of the church to help one another. He was admonishing moochers who joined the community and then expected everyone else to take care of them.

But, when he decided that he should get a paid job so that he could prove to the Corinthians that he himself was not a moocher on them, yes he did contradict Jesus' teaching. Paul quickly realized this when his fellow traveling companions, those who were not stubborn, arrived to find him making tents. He took the Corinthians to task by rebuking them for being so hard hearted toward the spiritual guidance he provides for him. That was his job; the "work of his hands".

You guys are twisting the circumstance to say that it was all about the money.

Note that God never gets perfect love from men,

Which is what grace is for; it's for those who try and fail. You can't fail if you don't try. It is a trap to defend yourself by suggesting that, since you are not perfect anyway, then why bother trying. The standard is perfection. "Therefore be perfect even as your father in Heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48). That is the standard. God knows we will fail, but the standard does not change just because we fail to reach it. Rather than dragging the standard down to our imperfect level, God expects us to climb up to his level.

 

[A_Thinker]

No, of course not, because Paul was not talking about demanding a paycheck in order for the members of the church to help one another.

I think that it is the rare church member who demands money for helping their brother.

Most christians work for companies (or organizations), ... not for each other.

You guys are twisting the circumstance to say that it was all about the money.

No ... we're not. It is you who are making money (which is just a way to represent value ... say, of crops, or services) ... into a black/white issue.

It is a trap to defend yourself by suggesting that, since you are not perfect anyway, then why bother trying.

Which is not what I said.

You said that God didn't want part-time (i.e. imperfect) love.

All christians love God imperfectly, ... and God is happy to accept that love.

Of course, we should strive to love perfectly, ... but it is better to love imperfectly, ... than not to love at all. Just ask my wife ...

 

[John Helpher]

I think that it is the rare church member who demands money for helping their brother.

But, that is what you're suggesting. You've said that Paul's comments about working with hands is a reference to making money. But, who do you think Paul was writing to when he made this comment? The church. They lived and worked together full time.

If you want to say that Paul's "work with your hands" comment was about making money, then they were profiting from one another.

Most christians work for companies (or organizations), ... not for each other.

This is the contradiction Jesus made clear when he said that God is one master and money is the other, and that we cannot work for both at the same time. You suggest that if it was for a member of your church, you'd help them without payment, presumably because you love them. That makes sense. If you love someone, you want to help them. But outside the church you demand a fee. The implication is that you do not love the people outside the church. Otherwise, you'd treat them the same as those inside the church.

But is it consistent with Christianity to only love those who are a part of our little group? Of course not. The opposite is true; we're supposed to take this message out into all the world and demonstrate it for them as an example of the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[A_Thinker]

But, that is what you're suggesting. You've said that Paul's comments about working with hands is a reference to making money. But, who do you think Paul was writing to when he made this comment? The church. They lived and worked together full time.

This is a misunderstanding. Paul made tents alongside Priscilla and Aquilla. They were not selling their tents to one another.

This is the contradiction Jesus made clear when he said that God is one master and money is the other, and that we cannot work for both at the same time.

Jesus didn't say that you couldn't work and serve God at same time.

Jesus said that you couldn't SERVE MONEY and serve God at the same time.

Actually, you can serve God by working (for money). Especially because money is just a method of exchanging goods and services.

It is God's will that some christians marry ... and have children.

It is also God's will that a man provide for the members of his household. Noone can, by themselves, personally provide every single good or service needed by his family. To provide what is necessary, exchanging goods and services with others is necessary. Money is just an shorthand way of accomplishing these exchanges.

Actually, an easy way to demonstrate this scripturally is to note ... that even Jesus and His disciples carried money (Judas carried the bag).

Money, itself, is not evil ... although the love of money is ...

 

[garee]

The implication is that you do not love the people outside the church. Otherwise, you'd treat them the same as those inside the church.

We love them the same as God loves us. God's very essence is Love in him no darkness . Only God can see into a persons heart and fulfill his desire as he works with them in them. . our Emanuel .

The true fast can provide a special care for the believers (widows and fatherless orphans ) . A double portion for those who plant and water the incorruptible seed and water it with the doctrines of God .

In Luke 16 in a series of parables. Food is used to represent money. Money is used to represent the power of the gospel, as food or meat for our new souls the kind of meat the disciples at first knew not of.

In that way no man can serve two good teaching masters as food for our new born again soul. . the power to believe our unseen Holy God.

No power. . no meat to eat as it is written. Know the power of God, know the meat.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[garee]

This is a misunderstanding. Paul made tents along with Priscilla and Aquilla. They were not selling their tents to one another.

It was their lively hood needed for food necessary for these bodies of death . Paul a traveling or missionary on the gospel wagon.

Acts 18:1-3 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them. And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

If Paul's craft was fishing he would of got on Peter's boat and not fell asleep like the carpenter Jesus ..

 

[Ceallaigh]

But, you yourself have evidenced this attitude.

You have misunderstood what I've been saying. I saw that clearly in you first reply to me, where you made false accusations.

It's not really about what Jesus says, but about the feelings in your heart. Jesus didn't say that we should consider obedience according to how we feel about his teachings in our heart. The heart is deceitful above all things and we regularly find reasons to avoid challenge, especially when the challenge is directed at our personal desires and our fears.

This "God knows my heart" thing is just a convenient doctrine; a shield to avoid accountability. The sad thing is that it's true. God really does know our heart; he knows when we use religious jargon to hide from responsibility. That's why he said, "This people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me".

He refers to this again in the Revelation when he says, "Your lukewarmness makes me want to vomit". Neither hot nor cold; unwilling to obey Jesus while at the same time making much ado about how he is Lord. This is why Jesus also said, "Why do you call me, 'Lord', but do not obey me"?

Yes, he does know our heart. It's hardly something that should so casually be used to win an argument. Rather, the realization should cause all of us to fall on our faces and beg for mercy.

No. What I said is that God knows our heart, that no matter what kind of a show we put on, God knows our heart. Therefore we should examine ourselves 2 Corinthians 13:5.

Now why don't you tell us what you yourself have done in forsaking all to follow Jesus.

You profile it says, Occupation: Digital Animator

Are you receiving a paycheck for that? If not are you mooching?

 

[John Helpher]

Actually, you can serve God by working (for money).

This is another one of those weird grammar things which I believe is an irrational outburst, akin to a cry for help. Why would you put for money in parenthesis? Why wouldn't you just say, "You can serve God by working for money"?

It's like you're protesting your own statement. I believe this is evidence that, deep down, you know how ludicrous is it to suggest that we serve God by chasing after money. I feel genuinely at a loss as to how to rebut, because this is your fight. Good luck.

 

[John Helpher]

Now why don't you tell us what you yourself have done in forsaking all to follow Jesus.

When you stand before Jesus, and he asks what you did to obey his teachings, will you argue that I didn't do enough?