What, If Anything, Might Change Your Mind?

[cvanwey]

Nothing exists as God created it, a 'no-thing'.

No offense, but you do understand what the 'argument from ignorance fallacy' is, don't you?

'is a fallacy in informal logic. It says something is true because it has not yet been proved false.'

Furthermore, you are blankly asserting an 'a priori', while violating this fallacy.

In another words... 'We can't explain it, therefore, not only God, but my believed God.'

Why not natural circumstances, why not aliens, why not the Matrix, why not the universe is eternal (leaving no room for a first cause), why not the many other reasons I can assert, without just cause?

Your assertion is NOT falsifiable. I can pose many not falsifiable claims to you, in which you cannot falsify. A matter of fact, I will pose one now....

Mass UFO sighting still unexplained

I say, it's aliens. Now disprove it.

 

[Chinchilla]

No offense, but you do understand what the 'argument from ignorance fallacy' is, don't you?

'is a fallacy in informal logic. It says something is true because it has not yet been proved false.'

Furthermore, you are blankly asserting an 'a priori', while violating this fallacy.

In another words... 'We can't explain it, therefore, not only God, but my believed God.'

Why not natural circumstances, why not aliens, why not the Matrix, why not the universe is eternal (leaving no room for a first cause), why not the many other reasons I can assert, without just cause?

Your assertion is NOT falsifiable. I can pose many not falsifiable claims to you, in which you cannot falsify. A matter of fact, I will pose one now....

Mass UFO sighting still unexplained

I say, it's aliens. Now disprove it.

Would you take any other proof other than your finger restoration? Christianity is the only truth because of fulfilled prophecy .You won't find fulfilled prophecy in other religions . God is using his divine atribute - he is outside of time , so we can know when things happen that he exist . I can give you past , present or future prophecy being fullfilled so you can know that he is , do you want it ?

Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Also to add , were you only raised Christian or were you born again too ?
To answer your question what would make me stop believing in Christianity.
I simply can't because I have Holy Spirit inside of me , even when I'm mad at God then I remind myself that I would not be mad at him if I knew that he does not exist... I'm not mad about monster under my bed because it does not exist.

 

[tampasteve]

Christianity is the only truth because of fulfilled prophecy .You won't find fulfilled prophecy in other religions .

That is one reason to believe in Christianity, but to be fair, there are fulfilled prophecies in other religions as well. For example, the Oracles of Apollo at Delphi prophesied many events that took place for around 1,000 years.

 

[Chinchilla]

That is one reason to believe in Christianity, but to be fair, there are fulfilled prophecies in other religions as well. For example, the Oracles of Apollo at Delphi prophesied many events that took place for around 1,000 years.

There is quite difference of saying something that will happen in future and something that will happen exactly on that day and this way in future multiple times . Accuracy is the key .

Angels know future events , they even knew that when Christ came it was not time for them to be judged . Some people calling themselfes oracles might be simply possesed but it's worth to still investigate .

 

[Arius]

No offense, but you do understand what the 'argument from ignorance fallacy' is, don't you?

'is a fallacy in informal logic. It says something is true because it has not yet been proved false.'

I never claimed anything to be true that I couldn't prove.
Nothing exists exactly as the name applies, a no-thing. You want to see it, feel it, smell it? OK, it looks just like nothing should, it feels like nothing and it smells like nothing, and I have tested this in all kinds of different ways, and believe me, it is as perfect nothing as only God could create it, and it is there between every-thing.

Furthermore, you are blankly asserting an 'a priori', while violating this fallacy.

In another words... 'We can't explain it, therefore, not only God, but my believed God.'

I'm sorry sir, but I believe you misunderstand the definition of "a priori", has nothing to do with believing in God.
Also, my understanding of "nothing" is from empirical observation.

Why not natural circumstances, why not aliens, why not the Matrix, why not the universe is eternal (leaving no room for a first cause), why not the many other reasons I can assert, without just cause?

God is Infinite and Eternal, the Heaven and the earth (universe) is finite, thus was created, so it had to have a start, a beginning, .. a cause, and the Only logical explanation is "Infinite/God did it". Once you understand yourself, your real self, which is by understanding the difference between your mind, and your body/brain, .. you will understand the difference between Infinite and Eternal and the finite created things, like the nothing.

Your assertion is NOT falsifiable. I can pose many not falsifiable claims to you, in which you cannot falsify. A matter of fact, I will pose one now....

Mass UFO sighting still unexplained

I say, it's aliens. Now disprove it.

The acronym UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object, why should that be questioned? People see things flying around that they cannot identify all the time! I have seen UFU's many times, I couldn't tell if it was a bird, a plane or, .. you know?
As for aliens, .. I mean come on, why is Trump putting billions in our Southern fences? "To keep aliens out", .. right? There are all kinds of aliens, illegal, then there are spirits, demons and fallen angels, .. aliens because they didn't belong here, they were thrown down from Heaven.

 

[aiki]

I'll start... I'm a growing skeptic to Christianity.

www.reasonablefaith.org
www.crossexamined.org
www.str.org
www.coldcasechristianity.com

 

[aiki]

What would change my mind? In accordance with Holy Scripture (Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23), pray for my amputated toe to grow back. If it does, I'm back in with two feet for Christianity (no pun intended).

So, God has to prove Himself to you your way, eh? That's not the way anyone can come to God. He doesn't bow to us; we bow to Him. He doesn't jump through our hoops; we jump through His. Our desire to dictate terms to God, to make Him our servant, is the very thing that keeps us from Him and sets us firmly on the Broad Way to destruction.

I know this methodology appears juvenile. Please let me explain. Christians pray for God to heal others all the time. Christians claim their prayers are sometimes answered, in accordance with God's will.

I have prayed that God would heal others. I have prayed the same for myself. But always I acknowledge when making such prayers that God can do as He likes. Above all, His will must be done. Is this your attitude? It doesn't seem like it to me. It appears you're giving God an ultimatum. He must act as you've set out or you'll reject Him. Do you honestly believe you can manipulate and strong-arm God this way? You have a seriously warped idea of God if you think that you can.

Furthermore, to my knowledge, God has never regrew someone's amputated limb (another very interesting observation).

It is a glaring non sequitur to say (or imply) that, because you know of no one whose limb God has miraculously re-grown, God must therefore not exist. For one, your knowledge of all that God has done throughout history is massively limited. For another, the refusal of anyone ever to do a particular thing does not constitute proof of their non-existence. I will never pluck the eyes out of a cat for fun. Never. Do I therefore not exist? Obviously not. The same goes for God.

Furthermore, if God only answers prayer, according to his will, then prayer is again worthless.

Not when our will is in line with His.

What would make you no longer believe in Christianity?

At this point, nothing that I can think of. Doing so would be like denying the existence of my wife. I have had so many real and positive experiences of God and His truth that it would be bizarre in the extreme to declare now that He does not exist and that Christianity is a sham.

 

[Uber Genius]

What is a 'nothing'? If it means absence of anything, everything, and everywhere, then where was God prior in this nothingness? The second you state, God always was, then you always presume 'something'.

(random quote)

'Almost all of our modes of critical thinking are infused with both of these ideas: that we may work from first principles, a definite starting point, counting up from zero (or one, historically); but also that we may trace the causes of things to some point, and then later ask how that starting point came to be. But the two ideas are themselves in conflict. Which is true — that infinite causal chains are impossible? Or that they are necessary? Or are they perhaps possible without being necessary?'

More relevant possible questions one may pose...

- If god always was, isn't that something somewhere?
- If god is everywhere, all at once, or omnitemporal, isn't that something everywhere, inside and outside time?
- If God created time at some point, but God was not in time, because god had not created time yet, this raises another interesting scenario.

Other interesting questions...

What is colder than absolute zero?
What is slower than stopped?

Until you define nothing, the conversation can really go anywhere (using the laws of subjective language).

Peace

Nothing - having no attributes

Remember the context of this discussion (i.e. the material world or universe).

So science starts necessarily from the existence of time, space, matter and energy plus the laws of physics.

It tells us that 13.7 Billion years ago these things came into being. Before that they did not exist.

Now God can operate in all locations omnipresence but what is more important is that the God of the bible is immaterial. He does not have a body and is not himself located anywhere. This is a function of his immateriality. Jesus has a body but didn't have a body across eternity pass until his incarnation. He has one now and forever more as he has taken on the essential nature of man and men are embodied.

The Kalam cosmological argument simply states that everything that begins to exist has a cause, the universe began to exist, therefore the universe has a cause.

Secondly, if the universe has a cause that cause is God (or a timeless, spaceless, immaterial, personal, uncaused, incredibly powerful, incredibly intelligent being)

no need to fire out a bunch of red herrings about counting from zero or absolute zero or event ordering before time.

 

[cvanwey]

Nothing - having no attributes

Remember the context of this discussion (i.e. the material world or universe).

So science starts necessarily from the existence of time, space, matter and energy plus the laws of physics.

It tells us that 13.7 Billion years ago these things came into being. Before that they did not exist.

If the universe is eternal, and simply changed form, then your entire line of reasoning becomes incongruent. Which would then further conclude, that any believed God would be nothing more than a 'change agent', and not a 'creator of all 'things.' However, I do admit, this is a big 'IF'

However, I'm honest in fully reconciling I do not make an assertive claim about how humans got here. However, on the other hand, theists often times demonstrate ethnocentrism.

Now God can operate in all locations omnipresence but what is more important is that the God of the bible is immaterial. He does not have a body and is not himself located anywhere. This is a function of his immateriality.

You have now just demonstrated my above assessment underlined

The Kalam cosmological argument simply states that everything that begins to exist has a cause, the universe began to exist, therefore the universe has a cause.

Okay, let me test your argument:

Physical objects which exist and are pushed forward, will move forward or faster
A rock is a physical object which exists
Therefore, a pushed rock will move forward or faster

Nope!

Okay, let me try again....

Each sunrise has a cause
Prior to every morning's sunrise, my roaster crows
Roasters crow before and during every sunrise
Therefore, the crowing roaster is the cause of every sunrise.

Nope!

Okay, one more time....

Everything which begins to exist has a cause.
Syphilis began to exist.
Therefore, Syphilis had a cause.

That settles it... God created Syphilis.

Premise number one is flawed, therefore, the rest becomes absurd.

Secondly, if the universe has a cause that cause is God (or a timeless, spaceless, immaterial, personal, uncaused, incredibly powerful, incredibly intelligent being)

no need to fire out a bunch of red herrings about counting from zero or absolute zero or event ordering before time.

Oh, no 'red herrings' needed

 

[cvanwey]

So, God has to prove Himself to you your way, eh? That's not the way anyone can come to God. He doesn't bow to us; we bow to Him. He doesn't jump through our hoops; we jump through His. Our desire to dictate terms to God, to make Him our servant, is the very thing that keeps us from Him and sets us firmly on the Broad Way to destruction.

Then the cited verses are not relevant then? Or maybe, [one of us] is just translating them wrong

I have prayed that God would heal others. I have prayed the same for myself. But always I acknowledge when making such prayers that God can do as He likes. Above all, His will must be done. Is this your attitude? It doesn't seem like it to me. It appears you're giving God an ultimatum. He must act as you've set out or you'll reject Him. Do you honestly believe you can manipulate and strong-arm God this way? You have a seriously warped idea of God if you think that you can.

I have seen and heard the exact same testimonial claims from Muslims. So why are they mistaken, but you, on the other hand, are correct?

It is a glaring non sequitur to say (or imply) that, because you know of no one whose limb God has miraculously re-grown, God must therefore not exist. For one, your knowledge of all that God has done throughout history is massively limited. For another, the refusal of anyone ever to do a particular thing does not constitute proof of their non-existence. I will never pluck the eyes out of a cat for fun. Never. Do I therefore not exist? Obviously not. The same goes for God.

So, which one of us two is misinterpreting the verses pertaining to prayer? Me (or) you? What standard are your using to derive your conclusion, that I'm mistaken, and you are right?

Not when our will is in line with His.

Then what is the point of any intercessory prayer?

At this point, nothing that I can think of. Doing so would be like denying the existence of my wife. I have had so many real and positive experiences of God and His truth that it would be bizarre in the extreme to declare now that He does not exist and that Christianity is a sham.

And yet I know humans exist, females exist, married people exist, and I can probably receive evidence that your wife even exists, etc....

Why are all other religions false? Is 5/7's of the world mistaken, but you are correct?

Here's a simple question...

Demonstrate that only one God must exist? Simple request.

 

[aiki]

Then the cited verses are not relevant then? Or maybe, [one of us] is just translating them wrong

Matthew 7:7 doesn't exist in isolation. Look at the verses in their immediate context and then in the larger context of the full counsel of Scripture. The parallel discourse in Luke 11:9-13 ends with the following:

Luke 11:13
13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

It seems Jesus was not making a promise to give us just anything we want to ask for, but was referring to the giving of His Spirit.

Matthew 21:22 is a remark Jesus made to the Twelve. Does it apply by extension to all who are believers? I don't think so. The Twelve were unique in their work as the first apostles and establishers of the Early Church. They had both special responsibilities and authority and the divine power to back them up. Not so the rest of us. This goes for the parallel passage you've cited in Mark 11.

In John 14:24, Jesus is again addressing his disciples directly. But this time there are some qualifications that he makes concerning prayer requests:

John 14:13-14
13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

1. The requests are to glorify the Father in the Son.
2. The requests are to be asked in Christ's name.

These aren't the only qualifications in Scripture concerning prayer requests, however:

John 15:7
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

1 John 3:22
22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

I don't think the demand you are making of God meets the biblical criteria for getting a prayer request answered.

I have seen and heard the exact same testimonial claims from Muslims. So why are they mistaken, but you, on the other hand, are correct?

Because Christ rose from the dead and Mohammed didn't.

So, which one of us two is misinterpreting the verses pertaining to prayer? Me (or) you? What standard are your using to derive your conclusion, that I'm mistaken, and you are right?

You have ignored my point. Why is that? It doesn't follow that because God won't do as you ask, He doesn't, therefore, exist.

As I have explained, you are badly misinterpreting the verses you cherry-picked to justify the challenge you're throwing down before your Maker.

Then what is the point of any intercessory prayer?

Is your challenge intercessory? I think not.

Prayer is not for God but for us. It reminds us of our total dependence upon God; it keeps us humble; it is the primary means of our communication with God; it makes our walk with God a much more conscious thing.

And yet I know humans exist, females exist, married people exist, and I can probably receive evidence that your wife even exists, etc....

Well, until a short time ago, you had no knowledge or experience of me whatever. I still existed, however. In any event, there is plenty of evidence for God's existence.

Why are all other religions false? Is 5/7's of the world mistaken, but you are correct?

Because the real, historical person named Jesus rose from the dead. Buddha didn't; Mohammed didn't; Krishna didn't. Only Jesus claimed to be God in the flesh and then died and rose from the dead in proof of his claim. See:

www.coldcasechristianity.com

Or, Dr. Gary Habermas' book "The Historical Jesus."

Here's a simple question...

Demonstrate that only one God must exist? Simple request.

Jesus showed himself to be God and excluded all other ways to the divine:

John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.

 

[DeepWater]

I'll start... I'm a growing skeptic to Christianity. I was born and raised within it.

You have not stated a true conversion experience.
A "Christian" is not a Christian because they grew up in the church, or because their mama and daddy and all the relatives all go to the same building for life.
So, i suspect your issue isn't with Christianity, its with your own salvation.

So tell us :

When were you saved?
Where were you saved?
How were you saved?
Why were you saved?
Who saved you?
What were you saved from?

 

[DeepWater]

========================

 

[Uber Genius]

ethnocentrism.

This will need some explaining.

You have now just demonstrated my above assessment underlined

strange to associate omniprescense with ethnocentrism seems like another red herring as it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Kalam, its premises, or providing any defeaters for same.

Your begins to exist arguments misses the point. If you want to knockdown my premise you must deal with actual things, not fictional, and the subject must be ontic, not epistemic.

We have no evidence for an eternal universe. All evidence supports a 13.7 Billion year old universe that came into being from:

No space
No time
No matter
No energy
No laws

This is time for study not flowery and prosaic off-the cuff responses. Graham Oppy and JH Sobel both give strong objections to the Kalam you might want to look up.