What Horses?

[yashua1970]

If all the horses of the Egyptians died due to Gods plague, how come pharaoh still had some to chase the Isrealites?

Exodus 9:1-3
1Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me. 2For if thou refuse to let them go, and wilt hold them still,
3Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses (Cattle), upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain (Disease).
4And the LORD shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt: and there shall nothing die of all that is the children's of Israel.
5And the LORD appointed a set time, saying, To morrow the LORD shall do this thing in the land.
6And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle (Horses) of Egypt died: but of the cattle of the children of Israel died not one.


The fifth plague of Egypt was an epidemic disease which exterminated the Egyptian livestock; that is, horses, donkeys, camels, cattle, sheep and goats. The Israelites' cattle were unharmed. Once again, Pharaoh made no concessions.

 

[mont974x4]

taken from NASB I do not know what translation you used

Exo 9:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and speak to him, 'Thus says the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, "Let My people go, that they may serve Me.
Exo 9:2 "For if you refuse to let them go and continue to hold them,
Exo 9:3 behold, the hand of the LORD will come with a very severe pestilence on your livestock which are in the field, on the horses, on the donkeys, on the camels, on the herds, and on the flocks.
Exo 9:4 "But the LORD will make a distinction between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt, so that nothing will die of all that belongs to the sons of Israel."'"
Exo 9:5 The LORD set a definite time, saying, "Tomorrow the LORD will do this thing in the land."
Exo 9:6 So the LORD did this thing on the next day, and all the livestock of Egypt died; but of the livestock of the sons of Israel, not one died.



Notice it says livestock died. The probable answer is horses are not considered as livestock. Notice in verse 3 the herds and flocks (both livestock) are mentioned separately from horses, camels, and donkeys (all beasts of burden and working animals....not livestock).

 

[ephraimanesti]

If all the horses of the Egyptians died due to Gods plague, how come pharaoh still had some to chase the Isrealites?

Would the answer serve to guide you onto the path of salvation?

If not, what's the point of the question?

A BOND-SLAVE OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[yashua1970]

taken from NASB I do not know what translation you used

Exo 9:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and speak to him, 'Thus says the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, "Let My people go, that they may serve Me.
Exo 9:2 "For if you refuse to let them go and continue to hold them,
Exo 9:3 behold, the hand of the LORD will come with a very severe pestilence on your livestock which are in the field, on the horses, on the donkeys, on the camels, on the herds, and on the flocks.
Exo 9:4 "But the LORD will make a distinction between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt, so that nothing will die of all that belongs to the sons of Israel."'"
Exo 9:5 The LORD set a definite time, saying, "Tomorrow the LORD will do this thing in the land."
Exo 9:6 So the LORD did this thing on the next day, and all the livestock of Egypt died; but of the livestock of the sons of Israel, not one died.



Notice it says livestock died. The probable answer is horses are not considered as livestock. Notice in verse 3 the herds and flocks (both livestock) are mentioned separately from horses, camels, and donkeys (all beasts of burden and working animals....not livestock).

I believe that was the intention is that everything died including horses which would be considered livestock. All the firstborn died of Egypt, so it would make perfect sense that "ALL" livestock including horses,sheep,ox, and asses died.

 

[yashua1970]

Would the answer serve to guide you onto the path of salvation?

If not, what's the point of the question?

A BOND-SLAVE OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

The only salvation that Christianity offers is to not burn in endless torment endlessly.
Which is nothing more than a Roman fable to persuade people to convert.

 

[Van]

Hi Yashua1970, I agree it is not clear how some horses survived. But if one wanted to parse the passage, it says (verse 3) the livestock in the field, and then in verse 6 it says all the livestock of Egypt. If we combine, then all the livestock of Egypt that were in the field died, but the horses kept for chariots did not because they were not "in the field."

May God Bless

 

[Celticflower]

Maybe they took the horses that the the Israelites had and didn't die.

 

[ephraimanesti]

The only salvation that Christianity offers is to not burn in endless torment endlessly.
Which is nothing more than a Roman fable to persuade people to convert.

MY DEAR FRIEND,

"Salvation" consists of being guided and empowered, by God's Holy indwelling Spirit, into being enabled to live a glorious life based upon God's Love and Peace, rather than having to settle for the meaningless struggle for existence of the evolved animal which atheists would convince us that we are.

The suffering of an "endless torment endlessly" as you put it is the result of refusing God's freely offered Gift of the above Life and having to spend eternity separated from the Light and Love of the One who offered it to you and damning oneself for making such an eternally ruinous choice.

The burning question of "what happened to the horses" not withstanding.

A BOND-SLAVE OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[soundwords]

Hi Yashua1970, I agree it is not clear how some horses survived. But if one wanted to parse the passage, it says (verse 3) the livestock in the field, and then in verse 6 it says all the livestock of Egypt. If we combine, then all the livestock of Egypt that were in the field died, but the horses kept for chariots did not because they were not "in the field."

May God Bless

"Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses...."

 

[soundwords]

It is known that the war horses of kings and pharaoh's were housed in stables and rarely if ever were allowed to run free in the open fields or pastures.

from The Mystery Of Pharaoh's Horses by Joel Hendon

Anyone can back-up this claim?

 

[yashua1970]

MY DEAR FRIEND,

"Salvation" consists of being guided and empowered, by God's Holy indwelling Spirit, into being enabled to live a glorious life based upon God's Love and Peace, rather than having to settle for the meaningless struggle for existence of the evolved animal which atheists would convince us that we are.

The suffering of an "endless torment endlessly" as you put it is the result of refusing God's freely offered Gift of the above Life and having to spend eternity separated from the Light and Love of the One who offered it to you and damning oneself for making such an eternally ruinous choice.

The burning question of "what happened to the horses" not withstanding.

A BOND-SLAVE OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

"Salvation" consists of being guided and empowered, by God's Holy indwelling Spirit, into being enabled to live a glorious life based upon God's Love and Peace, rather than having to settle for the meaningless struggle for existence of the evolved animal which atheists would convince us that we are.

Salvation for me is being guided and empowered, by my holy indwelling Spirit, that gives me a glorious life based on my Love, and peace, rather than having to settle for the meaningless struggle for existence wondering whether or not I would ever measure up just right so a God will accept me.
I'm glad that I accept me, my wife and four children accept me, my friends accept me, and everyone of my Family members accept me. Why would I need a God to accept me?

Atheists have never convinced me that I am an animal, I know I am an animal, But we are the most advanced animal there is. We can worship Gods, and kill for them which no "lower" animal in the animal kingdom has ever done. We can even make bombs that burn hundreds of thousands of people at a time, which no animal on earth has ever done, or would want to do. We can even make up stories to tell little children about how much love "God" has for them, and If they don't believe or accept how much "Love" God has for them, then when they die God has made a special place for them (originally for the devil & his angels, but we get it too) to suffer endless agony, and torment that will never end. That's also something that animals can't nor would ever think about doing. Maybe I should have been a Dolphin because there much more intelligent than Humans.

 

[yashua1970]

from The Mystery Of Pharaoh's Horses by Joel Hendon

Anyone can back-up this claim?

That sounds reasonable,

But Gods intention was not to

"The Lord gave them grace enough to save some of their animals, especially for those who believed that His plagues were truly coming."

as Joel Henderson claims.

No one knew any plagues were coming except Pharaoh and his group.
Of course the story is much better having your enemy chasing you while your God saves you, instead of your God wiping out your enemy so you can just walk away.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Salvation for me is being guided and empowered, by my holy indwelling Spirit, that gives me a glorious life based on my Love, and peace, rather than having to settle for the meaningless struggle for existence wondering whether or not I would ever measure up just right so a God will accept me.
I'm glad that I accept me, my wife and four children accept me, my friends accept me, and everyone of my Family members accept me. Why would I need a God to accept me?

Atheists have never convinced me that I am an animal, I know I am an animal, But we are the most advanced animal there is. We can worship Gods, and kill for them which no "lower" animal in the animal kingdom has ever done. We can even make bombs that burn hundreds of thousands of people at a time, which no animal on earth has ever done, or would want to do. We can even make up stories to tell little children about how much love "God" has for them, and If they don't believe or accept how much "Love" God has for them, then when they die God has made a special place for them (originally for the devil & his angels, but we get it too) to suffer endless agony, and torment that will never end. That's also something that animals can't nor would ever think about doing. Maybe I should have been a Dolphin because there much more intelligent than Humans.

MY BROTHER,

WoW! How did you come to this distorted view of what Christianity entails? What you describe is 180 degrees away from the life, teachings, death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ and from that which He continues to provide us through the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Where did this stuff come from? My best guess would be, based on my own personal experience, from a serious hurt or betrayal of some kind.

MAY YOU BE BLESSED--AND HEALED!

PEACE TO YA!
ephraim

 

[drich0150]

No one knew any plagues were coming except Pharaoh and his group.
Of course the story is much better having your enemy chasing you while your God saves you, instead of your God wiping out your enemy so you can just walk away.

There are Egyptian accounts of these events as well..

As for God's reasoning we are told in scripture God raised Pharaoh up and Hardened His heart so that His power may be solidified in the Hearts of all of Israel.

 

[yashua1970]

MY BROTHER,

WoW! How did you come to this distorted view of what Christianity entails? What you describe is 180 degrees away from the life, teachings, death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ and from that which He continues to provide us through the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Where did this stuff come from? My best guess would be, based on my own personal experience, from a serious hurt or betrayal of some kind.

MAY YOU BE BLESSED--AND HEALED!

PEACE TO YA!
ephraim

I'm sorry ephraim but Christianity is about God coming as a man (Jesus) to die for mankind so man can go to heaven and be with God "endlessly"
(That's a short version but to the point)
Whats even worse is that God sacrificies himself unto himself to appease his own wrath.
Furthermore such a scheme puts the Father and the Son in contradiction to each other. Jesus (God) so loved mankind that he was willing to die in their stead that they might be redeemed. God was so severe and unrelenting that he would not forgive man without a victim upon whom to visit his wrath, and so unjust as to accept an innocent victim in place of the guilty party; according to this scheme the love of Jesus is magnified, but God exhibits only relentlessness and implacability. God must be appeased and pacified with the blood of a victim, like a pagan deity, before he will look favorably upon a suppliant.

I am interested in your religion though Ephraim, I noticed that you are Eastern Orthodox. Could you tell me the difference in that and Catholicism?

 

[ephraimanesti]

I'm sorry ephraim but Christianity is about God coming as a man (Jesus) to die for mankind so man can go to heaven and be with God "endlessly"

(That's a short version but to the point)

MY FRIEND,

Actually, it unfortunately misses the BIG point. Heaven is not the goal--the goal is a reunited, loving, and totally surrendered relationship with Abba through the Power and Guidance of the Holy Spirit--the reuniting of Lovers, as it were. Anyway . . .

I am interested in your religion though Ephraim, I noticed that you are Eastern Orthodox. Could you tell me the difference in that and Catholicism?

Superficially, the Christian Church was a unified whole until 1050 when East and West excommunicated eachother over a unilateral change made by the Pope of Rome in the Nicene Creed--the adding of the "filoque," which relegated the Holy Spirit to second class citizenship in the Holy Trinity.

Since 1050, East and West have grown apart in many ways, the primary one being that the Roman Church in the West is ruled by the Pope while the Eastern Church is ruled by a consensus of the Bishops meeting in Council under the umbrella of the Holy Spirit's guidance. Other differences are that Priests in the Orthodox Church generally marry, Church services are sung or chanted in the Eastern Church, fasting is much more stringent and pervasive, monasticism is more active, widespread, and influencial in Orthodoxy. Services are longer in the Eastern Church and the congregation stands through most of it and, of course, the Liturgy is different. Etc.

There are other differences caused by the fact there was never a need for a Protestant Reformation in the Christian East so the Eastern Churches have remained unified in doctrines, beliefs, and practices without the Protestant-engendered fragmentation extant in the West.

i think a better source of information on the details--if you are really interested--would be found in the Orthodox Forum, as i have put most of my time and energy getting myself together spiritual speaking and have not spent a lot of time on Church history, doctrinal differences, or such extracurricular studies. i'm about all i can handle. Sorry!

BE BLESSED!

A BOND-SLAVE OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,

ephraim

 

[yashua1970]

MY FRIEND,

Actually, it unfortunately misses the BIG point. Heaven is not the goal--the goal is a reunited, loving, and totally surrendered relationship with Abba through the Power and Guidance of the Holy Spirit--the reuniting of Lovers, as it were. Anyway . . .



Superficially, the Christian Church was a unified whole until 1050 when East and West excommunicated eachother over a unilateral change made by the Pope of Rome in the Nicene Creed--the adding of the "filoque," which relegated the Holy Spirit to second class citizenship in the Holy Trinity.

Since 1050, East and West have grown apart in many ways, the primary one being that the Roman Church in the West is ruled by the Pope while the Eastern Church is ruled by a consensus of the Bishops meeting in Council under the umbrella of the Holy Spirit's guidance. Other differences are that Priests in the Orthodox Church generally marry, Church services are sung or chanted in the Eastern Church, fasting is much more stringent and pervasive, monasticism is more active, widespread, and influencial in Orthodoxy. Services are longer in the Eastern Church and the congregation stands through most of it and, of course, the Liturgy is different. Etc.

There are other differences caused by the fact there was never a need for a Protestant Reformation in the Christian East so the Eastern Churches have remained unified in doctrines, beliefs, and practices without the Protestant-engendered fragmentation extant in the West.

i think a better source of information on the details--if you are really interested--would be found in the Orthodox Forum, as i have put most of my time and energy getting myself together spiritual speaking and have not spent a lot of time on Church history, doctrinal differences, or such extracurricular studies. i'm about all i can handle. Sorry!

BE BLESSED!

A BOND-SLAVE OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,

ephraim

Thanks for the Info into your side of the coin.

Actually, it unfortunately misses the BIG point. Heaven is not the goal--the goal is a reunited, loving, and totally surrendered relationship with Abba through the Power and Guidance of the Holy Spirit--the reuniting of Lovers, as it were. Anyway . . .

Thats a nicer version, but If you will study all the different aspects of Christianity each one has their view of what salvation is.

Just as an example:

Salvation is deliverance from danger or suffering. To save is to deliver or protect. The word carries the idea of victory, health, or preservation. Sometimes, the Bible uses the words saved or salvation to refer to temporal, physical deliverance, such as Paul’s deliverance from prison

More often, the word “salvation” concerns an eternal, spiritual deliverance. When Paul told the Philippian jailer what he must do to be saved, he was referring to the jailer’s eternal destiny . Jesus equated being saved with entering the kingdom of God
What are we saved from? In the Christian doctrine of salvation, we are saved from “wrath,” that is, from God’s judgment of sin . Our sin has separated us from God, and the consequence of sin is death . Biblical salvation refers to our deliverance from the consequence of sin and therefore involves the removal of sin.

Some are saved from the power of sin, Ourselves, Judge Judy, Jerry Springer, the power of the devil, some the power of the grave/Hades/Sheol (Or Hell if you want to get specific, which by the way was never in any of the earliest text of the bible, but don't tell anybody that, they might want to "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not be ashamed") Christianity doesn't want anyone to really investigate the origins of their doctrines because that would probably create alot of Ex-Christians like me.

Have a great Day Ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

Christianity doesn't want anyone to really investigate the origins of their doctrines because that would probably create alot of Ex-Christians like me.

MY DEAR FRIEND,

An honest examination of the origins of Christian doctrines led me, after many years of studying both Christianity and its alternatives, to become a Christian.

In all honesty, very much against my will, i discovered that the origin of Christian doctrines was God.

PAX CHRISTI TO YOU AND YOURS,
ephraim