What holds the Atom together?

Arikay · Feb 6, 2003

Thanks

Originally posted by Duane Morse
http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/1999/split/pnu410-1.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/15/science/15PHYS.html
http://physicsweb.org/article/news/5/8/11

Here are a few.

blader · Feb 6, 2003

Originally posted by tacoman528
 

your point is...

 

 

Mechanical Bliss' point is that you need to actually study physics to know what you are talking about rather than parrot back things you've read in Chick's comic strips to people who actually DO know what they're talking about.

Just because you either:

Did not read the links to the explanations provided,

or,

Did not understand the explanations provided,

Does not mean that no answer was given to you, and CERTAINLY does not mean that the cumulative work of the physics community (people such as Einstein and Feynman) for the past two centuries is wrong, and that you and your Jack Chick comic strip are right.

tacoman528 · Feb 9, 2003

Explain to me exactly in your own words why the atom can stay together and why the electrons do not crash into the nucleus. I'm asking this because there seems to be a general refusal of any visitation to any of MY links to Dr. Dino and such. If you had actually gone to his website to seek for your answers, you may have actually learned something. But no, read romans 1:22

tacoman528 · Feb 9, 2003

So far, all the answers that have been given to me are desparate attempts to explain away truth. Keep on sending me those links and insults, they're actually kind of amusing.

Mechanical Bliss · Feb 9, 2003

Originally posted by tacoman528
So far, all the answers that have been given to me are desparate attempts to explain away truth. Keep on sending me those links and insults, they're actually kind of amusing.

Nonsense.

That is only because the only "truth" you will except that it is the force of God or somesuch thing. You've been given the reason by numerous people here. How many times does it need to be repeated? They are not desperate attempts but the answer has been provided by people who know more about quantum mechanics than you do about basic high school chemistry considering you were in error of the nature of the atomic nucleus.

So if it is the force of God, I guess that makes man more powerful than God because he can split the atomic nucleus, huh?

You've been given responses and you either (1) do not understand them or (2) refuse to accept them for no real reason.

tacoman528 · Feb 9, 2003

Then please grant my request in post #63 instead of insulting my knowledge. I may only be In High School, but at least I'm not too obstinate for the truth. More insults for me. Yay!!!

David Gould · Feb 9, 2003

Originally posted by tacoman528
Explain to me exactly in your own words why the atom can stay together and why the electrons do not crash into the nucleus. I'm asking this because there seems to be a general refusal of any visitation to any of MY links to Dr. Dino and such. If you had actually gone to his website to seek for your answers, you may have actually learned something. But no, read romans 1:22

In the classical model, ignoring Maxwell for the moment, the electron does not crash into the nucleus because it has velocity which is not straight at the nucleus As such, it cannot crash into the nucleus but will simply orbit forever.

Maxwell's laws complicate this a little, because a moving electrically charged particle will radiate energy away from itself, eventually losing velocity and spiralling into the nucleus (with 'eventually' meaning a fraction of a second.)

That it does not do this is because energy is quantisized. This means that if an electron is to radiate energy away it has to do so in huge lumps - the energy of a photon.

Using Maxwell's laws, the energy that an electron would lose in any orbit simply from its orbital movement is significantly less than the energy of a photon.

Thus, as it cannot radiate away that energy, it does not, and thus remains in orbit around the nucleus.

This is what quantum physics is all about - the quantum (the unit) of energy that an electron can radiate or absorb, and which switches it in orbits (now called 'energy levels') around the nucleus.

I have been to Dr Dino's site many times. It is a load of nonsense.

I hope that you will do some reading about this - I have taken significant time to try and explain stuff, and others have taken even longer.

I also hope that you are honestly intrigued by the workings of the atom - it is a very interesting area of study.

 

tacoman528 · Feb 9, 2003

Okay, that is an interesting idea and also a fair question. What you are trying to say is that the electron keeps emitting energy to prevent itself from crashing into the nucleus. Okay, but how does the electron not run out of energy, and how would the energy burst always fire just the right way to keep the electron in orbit all the time.

By the way, electrons don't travel in orbits, they actually just jump randomly around the electron cloud trying to balance the atmosphere of positive presence caused by the positively charged nucleus.

I am intrigued about the workings of atoms. Amazing little things, aren't they? That is why I started this thread, to discuss the cause of this phenomina; an atom.

Also, my chemistry teacher can't explain this either, so if you can't, don't feel bad.

Tenek · Feb 9, 2003

Originally posted by tacoman528
Okay, that is an interesting idea and also a fair question. What you are trying to say is that the electron keeps emitting energy to prevent itself from crashing into the nucleus. Okay, but how does the electron not run out of energy, and how would the energy burst always fire just the right way to keep the electron in orbit all the time.

By the way, electrons don't travel in orbits, they actually just jump randomly around the electron cloud trying to balance the atmosphere of positive presence caused by the positively charged nucleus.

I am intrigued about the workings of atoms. Amazing little things, aren't they? That is why I started this thread, to discuss the cause of this phenomina; an atom.

Also, my chemistry teacher can't explain this either, so if you can't, don't feel bad.

Actually, I think he's saying that the electron *can't* radiate away energy, because it won't have enough for even one photon.

seebs · Feb 10, 2003

To get back to the original question:

Very, very, small glue.

David Gould · Feb 10, 2003

Originally posted by Tenek
Actually, I think he's saying that the electron *can't* radiate away energy, because it won't have enough for even one photon.

Yes, this is correct.

David Gould · Feb 10, 2003

Originally posted by tacoman528
Okay, that is an interesting idea and also a fair question. What you are trying to say is that the electron keeps emitting energy to prevent itself from crashing into the nucleus. Okay, but how does the electron not run out of energy, and how would the energy burst always fire just the right way to keep the electron in orbit all the time.

By the way, electrons don't travel in orbits, they actually just jump randomly around the electron cloud trying to balance the atmosphere of positive presence caused by the positively charged nucleus.

I am intrigued about the workings of atoms. Amazing little things, aren't they? That is why I started this thread, to discuss the cause of this phenomina; an atom.

Also, my chemistry teacher can't explain this either, so if you can't, don't feel bad.

The electron does not keep emitting energy - if it did, it would crash into the nucleus. It cannot emit energy because the amout it would lose if Maxwell is correct (and his theory works pretty darn well) is less than a quanta - a photon's worth - and that is an impossible amount to emit.

I know they do not travel in orbits - that is why I corrected it to energy levels in brackets in the middle of the post.

It is easier to begin the explanation with orbits, however. And remember: no matter where the electron is detected in the cloud it will only be in quanta units that it can emit or absorb energy. 

MartinM · Feb 10, 2003

David Gould said
It cannot emit energy because the amout it would lose if Maxwell is correct (and his theory works pretty darn well) is less than a quanta - a photon's worth - and that is an impossible amount to emit

It's worth noting that there is no minimum energy a photon can carry, so 'less than a photon's worth' is meaningless in the more general context. That is, unless we're going to get into the QFT trick of invoking a closed Universe to cut off the extreme infrared. The energy levels a bound electron may occupy are determined by the structure of the potential, not some fundamental discretization of the photon energy spectrum.

From your other posts, it's pretty clear that you know all this. I just thought it was worth clarifying.

Joe_Sixpack · Feb 10, 2003

"It's worth noting that there is no minimum energy a photon can carry, so 'less than a photon's worth' is meaningless in the more general context. That is, unless we're going to get into the QFT trick of invoking a closed Universe to cut off the extreme infrared. The energy levels a bound electron may occupy are determined by the structure of the potential, not some fundamental discretization of the photon energy spectrum."

Actually, all energy - whether photon or otherwise - is quantize - it is fundamentally discreet. This is the whole basis of quantum mechanics.

MartinM · Feb 10, 2003

Today at 09:09 PM Joe_Sixpack said
Actually, all energy - whether photon or otherwise - is quantize - it is fundamentally discreet. This is the whole basis of quantum mechanics.

Yes, energy travels in discrete quanta. But I was referring to the energy spectrum. There is no minimum energy a quantum may carry, and no minimum separation between energy levels. The allowed energy values are the eigenvalues of the Hamiltonian operator. Depending on the form of the potential, the eigenvalue spectrum may be discrete (e.g. infinite sqaure potential well), continuous (e.g. free particle) or a combination of both (e.g. bound electron in an atom).

The reason I bring it up is because David's post implies (to me, at least) that energy levels are discrete because no photons of energy less than the separation of adjacent levels exist to be absorbed or emitted. Where in fact no photons with energy less than the separation of adjacent levels may be absorbed or emitted because the energy levels are discrete.

Joe_Sixpack · Feb 10, 2003

I see your point and I see why you ojected then. It is a particularly nuanced point that few will notice, but technically the way David expressed the problem is incorrect.

Taffsadar · Feb 10, 2003

Today at 04:44 AM tacoman528 said this in Post

Then please grant my request in post #63 instead of insulting my knowledge. I may only be In High School, but at least I'm not too obstinate for the truth. More insults for me. Yay!!!

You should really look more into physics than trying to investigate things here. Science is by far more complicated than you might think (did you know that there is a 15th dimension rolled into itself?). If you want to understand this stuff become a Physican.

And Chick publications really isn't a good source. Check the strip about role playing. I have done lots of level ups without learning real magic, the writer really doesn't have a clue. D&D is a child game. Real roleplayers play stuff like Vampire the eternal struggle. It's also usually a friend of yours who is the game master not some priestlike caracter made up in the dreams of a fundie writer.

Athlon4all · Feb 10, 2003

Ah the Atom, onbe of the marvels of God's creation. If it weren't for the Lord keeeping it all together, we and everything around us would explode into chaos. Praise be to the Creator Lord Jesus Christ!

DNAunion · Feb 10, 2003

David Gould: The electron does not keep emitting energy - if it did, it would crash into the nucleus. It cannot emit energy because the amout it would lose if Maxwell is correct (and his theory works pretty darn well) is less than a quanta - a photon's worth - and that is an impossible amount to emit.

DNAunion: But electrons do sometimes "crash into" the nucleus, during K capture (mediated by the weak force). So it can't be literally impossible.

David Gould · Feb 10, 2003

Today at 10:36 AM DNAunion said this in Post #79

DNAunion: But electrons do sometimes "crash into" the nucleus, during K capture (mediated by the weak force). So it can't be literally impossible.

But they do not do so because of radiating energy and Maxwell's laws.

It certainly is not impossible for a photon and an electron to collide (although under most circumstances it is very difficult).

It is impossible for them to do so because of the Maxell problem.

What holds the Atom together?

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