What has happened to us?

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

I'm not misrepresenting Hovind. I've got a DVD of his debate with Hugh Ross. Hovind says a lot of things. He used the H word several times. If what you say is true, then Hovind just likes to throw out the word heresy just for effect.

I'll pull up quotes when I can and post the examples.

Is that what your going to tell God when you meet him? I have talked to Hovind face to face. I have also spent a lot of time instant messaging him and others in his organization. I also own 2 different sets of his seminar DVD's. I have most of his debates. I also have some of his written material. I also know that you do indeed misrepresent Mr. Hovind. Denial won't change that fact.

By the way I do believe Hugh Ross does indeed hold a heretical view when it comes to origins. That being said I will not deny he is saved and neither would Hovind.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

As do all of us. In a thread where I asked why we can't show each grace and mercy and why we must argue at all times, arguing breaks out.

A conclusion could be drawn that we like to disagree and cause strife amongst each other. That we find it fulfilling to give into our pride and show others neither mercy nor grace. If this is a correct conclusion, why? If this is an incorrect conclusion, why do the actions seem to show this?

I agree with SBG that we should always show grace and mercy. Most of us, if not all, have been guilty of not doing so from time to time. I do get upset when people are misrepresented. Even if Hovind doesn't always say things with grace that doesn't mean we should lash out at the guy. I have all reason to believe he is a brother in Christ and I will show him love. I also show respect to evolutionists. It's nice when they return the favor. That being said there is nothing wrong with strongly disagreeing with people's views. Such as I disagreeing with Ross's views on origins.

 

[SBG]

I agree with SBG that we should always show grace and mercy. Most of us, if not all, have been guilty of not doing so from time to time. I do get upset when people are misrepresented. Even if Hovind doesn't always say things with grace that doesn't mean we should lash out at the guy. I have all reason to believe he is a brother in Christ and I will show him love. I also show respect to evolutionists. It's nice when they return the favor. That being said there is nothing wrong with strongly disagreeing with people's views. Such as I disagreeing with Ross's views on origins.

I don't agree with Math's attack on Hovind. The attack seems to come from what people have done to Math in his life and not truly about Hovind, the man. I could be wrong, but that is what I got from it. And, I don't really see the point in attacking Hovind and what good can be gotten out of it here on this forum. Hovind isn't here to defend himself, so, to me, it is no different than talking badly behind a person's back.

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with people and letting them know you disagree with them. The problem is with how we let people know that we disagree with them. It is often followed by personal attacks, accusations, unfounded assumptions, etc. Instead of taking time to find something out, we assume instead. We are also not very sensitive to how other people may take what we say. An example from another thread is that one YEC was told he was in league with the atheists, another comment talked about the road one may be on to hell, etc. I believe the writers of these didn't mean harm by what they said, but there was a lack of sensitivity for how the recipient might view what is said, let alone others who believe as the recipient.

I have failed to be sensitive about how I write and I am trying to improve, but I know I still fail. My point is, when will we become aware of what we are doing? When we will start to care about each other? Will we ever?

 

[mark kennedy]

SBG,

YECs control the conservative churches. TEs and OECs are labelled unbelievers, compromisers, and heretics in almost all conservative churches. I'm am far more conservative and far less compromising than my accusers. My family has had to leave 3 churches over these issues. All 3 churches claimed these things were not issues at the time we joined.

After spending some time debating TEs on a regular basis I don't doubt it. I wonder where you draw the line, special creation, the parting of the Red Sea, the miracles of Christ and the Apostles, the ressurection?

The big name YEC leaders spread lies about Scripture as well as about science and about people who disagree with them. Too many YEC believers accept these lies as truth. Vosseler even started a thread just to spout and accuse TEs of being nonbelievers. How does that help? How does it help when YECs make heros out of demonstrated frauds and liars?

How does it help to call people frauds and liars, this does not strike me as a fellowship post. If you have a problem with something Vosseler posted in the common area then vent it there. I've seen one creationist after another ran off the open discussion forums and had to ask for a special forum where they could escape the constant barrage of attacks.

This is a fellowship thread and if I see this again I will move the thread.

Yes this is a serious charge. But it is true. The big name YECs can not allow people to have an honest disagreement.

I don't have a problem hearing an honest disagreement, as long as it doesn't result in name calling. Personally, I consider theistic evolution to be a compromise with the spirit of the age. I have both Scriptural and scientific reasons for believing this, reasons I enjoy debating in the appropriate forums.

May I remind you that this is a creationist fellowship forum and venting problems with YECs belongs in the Origins common area.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Mathematician]

Mark,

I am a creationist. I've given a very literal interpretation of Genesis 1-11 elsewhere on this forum. It is more literal and has fewer problems than the interpretation you use.

After spending some time debating TEs on a regular basis I don't doubt it. I wonder where you draw the line, special creation, the parting of the Red Sea, the miracles of Christ and the Apostles, the ressurection?

How does it help to call people frauds and liars, this does not strike me as a fellowship post.

I have backed it up. I gave two examples. Be my guest and answer them. In 15 years, I've only known 2 YECs to look those verses up. Both of us are now OECs.

Personally, I consider theistic evolution to be a compromise with the spirit of the age. I have both Scriptural and scientific reasons for believing this, reasons I enjoy debating in the appropriate forums.

May I remind you that this is a creationist fellowship forum and venting problems with YECs belongs in the Origins common area.

This is the issue. You just called TE a compromise. But you are blind. You refuse to look at the YEC compromise with the truth.

You'd rather not have OECs on this forum. Fine. I'm gone.

Take care.

 

[SBG]

Mark,

I am a creationist. I've given a very literal interpretation of Genesis 1-11 elsewhere on this forum. It is more literal and has fewer problems than the interpretation you use.





I have backed it up. I gave two examples. Be my guest and answer them. In 15 years, I've only known 2 YECs to look those verses up. Both of us are now OECs.

Because you have backing, does this then make it ok to resort to name calling?

This is the issue. You just called TE a compromise. But you are blind. You refuse to look at the YEC compromise with the truth.

Mark said he personally believes that TE is a compromise. Is Mark not allowed his own opinion on this subject? You have quite loudly expressed your opinion that YECs are liars and that YECs try to cause problems with the Gospel.

This is exactly what I meant when I said we are not sensitive to people when we post, but we expect others to be sensitive when they post. You have resorted to name calling and making assumptions about all YECs. Then you attack Mark for saying what he personally believes.

I honestly don't think you see what you are doing. You want mercy and grace from YECs, but you don't show it to the YECs here. Why?

You'd rather not have OECs on this forum. Fine. I'm gone.

Take care.

I don't want to see you go, Math. Not like this. You are more then welcome on this forum. The point Mark was making is that if you can't keep from venting at YECs here, then maybe it might be better to take it to the open forum where it is more appropriate.

There really shouldn't be any need to personally attack anyone here, much less those who aren't even present to defend themselves.

 

[CardinalBaseball]

Seems to me that all we do is hate each other, and would rather not ever associate with someone who holds an opposing view. I have seen some of that already in this thread alone.