What has happened to us?

[SBG]

I am curious to hear anyone's opinion on why we as Christians cannot fellowship with one another even if we believe differently about origins?

In a recent thread, I gave my opinion about the subject of the thread. I felt that the OP was looking for peoples' opinion. I know very well that the open forum is a heated debate section. But, why is it if one expresses their opinion it must be argued against?

I feel that the answer to my own question is because we want everyone to agree with our beliefs. We aren't interested in what others think, we are more interested in others accepting what we ourselves believe.

This is specific to origins, not the acceptance of who Jesus Christ is. We don't find Augustine bashing anyone who didn't accept his dual belief in a six day creation and an instant creation.

Again, it is my opinion that what I see in the open Origins Forum, is a display of people not interested in what others think or have to say. Rather, it seems to me that people are more interested in making others believe as they do or else they reject them.

I believe this stiffles our understanding of each other and we do not stand to benefit anything other than solidifying our positions that we brought to this forum. Open mindedness is claimed by many people, yet the actions displayed shows closed mindedness and not open minds. I tend to believe actions are louder than words.

Granted, there are most assuredly a few people who don't fit in what I just said, but in my observation of the open origins forum, the majority appear to me to fit.

So, I am curious, if you aren't interested in hearing another's belief, or you aren't interested in being open minded, why do you who do persist to argue, continue to do so? Hardly anyone is listening, hardly anyone cares what someone else has to say, and fellowship is denied at almost every opportunity and replaced with angered responses and disagreements.

I have nothing against debating, I find it quite fun at times, but when you know your opposition isn't interested in what you have to say and will not be open to your words, why continue with them and not move onto someone who will hear?

Anyways, this stems from me being told that the open forums here is not for fellowship but rather for debates and arguements and if I want to fellowship I must do so in my respected sub-forum. I suppose this is where Christianity is today. I find it troubling, but that is just me.

 

[john crawford]

I am curious to hear anyone's opinion on why we as Christians cannot fellowship with one another even if we believe differently about origins?

Who said we cannot fellowship even though we hold different opinions? Even Jesus' disciples doubted some things which the others believed in.

Again, it is my opinion that what I see in the open Origins Forum, is a display of people not interested in what others think or have to say. Rather, it seems to me that people are more interested in making others believe as they do or else they reject them.

Rejecting the opinions of other Christians doesn't equate to a rejection of them personally. What theology of origins do you subscribe to anyway?

 

[SBG]

Who said we cannot fellowship even though we hold different opinions? Even Jesus' disciples doubted some things which the others believed in.

My apologies, I should have made this clearer. It isn't that we are barred from fellowshipping, it is that people refuse to fellowship and instead want to argue and debate against each other. And, if one tries to fellowship, it is debated against.

Rejecting the opinions of other Christians doesn't equate to a rejection of them personally. What theology of origins do you subscribe to anyway?

Opinions and beliefs are part of what makes us who we are. When you reject one's beliefs and one's opinions, you are rejecting part of the person as well. There is a difference between disagreeing and rejecting. When you disagree, we both have different beliefs and are not rejecting one anothers as invalid. When we reject anothers belief, we are calling their belief wrong and/or heresy.

That is how I see it from my view point. Maybe others think disagreeing and rejecting are the same word with the same meaning. I personally don't.

And, might I ask why my view of origins is pertenant to this discussion? Do I need a specific view point so that I can ask these questions?

 

[Mathematician]

I am curious to hear anyone's opinion on why we as Christians cannot fellowship with one another even if we believe differently about origins?

You got in the middle of this.

The bottom line is you must believe in His awesome power in order to believe in the words of the Bible, if you don't believe in the real meaning of the Bible then what is the point? IF God couldn't make a man appear from dust and dirt on the ground, then how is He going to save us all...? Am I making sense? Thus if you are an "old earth" believer, you can't fully believe. This is only one way the enemy has started his way to take down the faith in God's power.

This is an outright personal attack on everybody who believes in an old earth. TBS has claimed that if you don't believe what he believes, then you are not a christian.

If you had said what you said, either someplace else or at another time, I don't think you would have gotten the reaction you got. But saying it when and where you did made it look like you were supporting TBS' comment.

 

[SBG]

You got in the middle of this.



This is an outright personal attack on everybody who believes in an old earth. TBS has claimed that if you don't believe what he believes, then you are not a christian.

I use to do the same thing and think the same way. I offered no grace, but expected grace from God.

I have seen these types of attacks from both sides. Neither side is without their guilt and shame. Both sides offer no grace or mercy and then turn to God and expect it from Him in their own lives. (For clarification, I am speaking of both sides in general terms, not specifically meaning every person on each side.)

A point I was trying to make with this thread is that when (for example) you and I cannot agree on origins, then we must agree to disagree and keep within the Spirit of the Body that we each belong to. If I or you are unwilling to change our mind about the topic, what point is there to pursue the other in trying to change their mind? It is a worthless effort that could be better spent else where, don't you agree?

As a friend of mine has said, we tend to let our flesh get in the way, way too often.

If you had said what you said, either someplace else or at another time, I don't think you would have gotten the reaction you got. But saying it when and where you did made it look like you were supporting TBS' comment.

Thank you for clarifying this, I appreciate it. I didn't read all of the thread, so I didn't see this comment made.

Let me ask you, wouldn't it be an assumption on either your part or someone else's part to assume that I was supporting TBS' statement when I never stated I did?

 

[Mathematician]

Thank you for clarifying this, I appreciate it. I didn't read all of the thread, so I didn't see this comment made.

Let me ask you, wouldn't it be an assumption on either your part or someone else's part to assume that I was supporting TBS' statement when I never stated I did?

Yes it's an assumption on their part. It's a very common one. You've got to expect it. Especially on a long thread that you haven't read.

 

[shernren]

A point I was trying to make with this thread is that when (for example) you and I cannot agree on origins, then we must agree to disagree and keep within the Spirit of the Body that we each belong to. If I or you are unwilling to change our mind about the topic, what point is there to pursue the other in trying to change their mind? It is a worthless effort that could be better spent else where, don't you agree?

For me, I can see two types of YECs here: the knee-jerk YECs and the serious YECs. And when I was a YEC I was somewhat the knee-jerk type.

For the knee-jerk ones ... well, to be honest, I counter what they say because I'm downright irritated with hearing it for the umpteenth time I don't know. Sometimes when I'm in a more edifying mode, I do it because I think it would be good for them to practice defending their beliefs. As a Christian who disagrees it would help to prepare them to face atheists and non-Christians who disagree. A sort of "trial exam", so to say. But I don't have such pure motives all of the time ... or even most of the time

But for the serious YECs, who've thought through what they believe, I do enjoy talking to them, especially on a non-confrontational level. I want to understand why they believe what they believe. For me, I come from a church which is predominantly YEC - either type - and I want to learn how I can serve and how I can contribute there without letting this nonsense get in the way. I want to know how to affirm a YEC brother or sister while disagreeing with them in that small area of their beliefs. And so I enjoy learning how the YEC thinks ... what are the assumptions, facts, and mindsets they bring to the table as a YEC. Often times I find myself able to identify with them in certain areas and yet not in others, which is probably because I have an intense scientific bent to my personality

I guess that my goal in interacting with them is to be able to say: "I don't agree with what you believe in, but I can understand why you believe it."

 

[BradinTX]

The whole purpose of true debate is not to open yourself to another opinion; it is to prove your opinion. There is no reason this can't be done in a manner that would glorify the Lord. I do believe it is rude to ask someone what their opinion is and then criticize it though.



I suspect that any of us that truly believe we have all the answers will be mightily disappointed someday when we stand before the Lord and it is all made clear.


Brad in Plano, TX

 

[mark kennedy]

I've often wonder about the questions raised in the OP. Many Christians don't agree with my view of origins but then again many don't believe the way I do about baptism either. I firmly believe that there is a way for theistic evolution and young earth creationism to agree on what is important. Jesus said in the upper room that the mark of a disciple what the love disciples had for one another. Sure it's important to discuss these issues but do we have to drive a wedge between us and other believers to make a point.

Today it's YEC, tommorow it could be baptism or who knows how many other issues that could arise. Christianity is not about getting all of the particulars right, it's about turning your heart from the vanities of this life to your relationship with God. Don't get me wrong, Genesis 1 is as important to me now as it ever was. I just don't see any bridges being built between Christian of different opinions on the subject of origins.

I had a debate with someone who I eventually put on my ignore list. He was argueing strenously for aboigenesis and I found his arguments repugnant. In one of our exchanges I refered to him as an atheist. Imagine my supprise when I found that he was a professing Christian. Of course I apologized but the shock of that experience was very sobering for me on a personal level.

I am a confirmed young earth creationist and don't have the slightest inclination to be anything else. I have been fascinated by the arguements from people of other views and continue to engage them regularly. I don't belileve for one second that this is going to make it impossible for me to fellowship with theistic evolutionists. I know this is a highly contentious debate topic but we do well to remember that Christianity is about our relationship with God through Christ first. Intellectual, philosophical and even some theological points must come second.

I'm not advocating compromise, just composure.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[SBG]

Yes it's an assumption on their part. It's a very common one. You've got to expect it. Especially on a long thread that you haven't read.

This is what I don't understand. Why should I expect a fellow Christian to make an assumption that I intended something bad to be said about them? Are we not taught to think better of one another?

To me, it seems we have diverted from what we are taught in the Bible and are told today that we should expect our fellow Christians to think the worst of us by which they would be bearing false witness against us. Is this what we have settled for and accept as good behavior here? So much so that we must expect it?

What if you and I don't agree what is being said in Revelations about who the woman is? Should we expect each other to make assumptions that assume the worst of one another because we don't agree? Do we abandon our Christian charity for the sake proving we are right, for pride?

I am not trying to accuse you or anyone other than myself. Rather I want to make a point at what we [YECs and TEs] are doing to each other for the sake of pride. The pride in being right. I think we are more concerned with ourselves being right than about how we treat each other.

I know that has been evident in my actions and that makes me very upset with how I have treated others. So, I ask does anyone else care enough to change how we treat each other? Or do we care more about being right at each others expense?

 

[Mathematician]

SBG,

I know that has been evident in my actions and that makes me very upset with how I have treated others. So, I ask does anyone else care enough to change how we treat each other? Or do we care more about being right at each others expense?

YECs control the conservative churches. TEs and OECs are labelled unbelievers, compromisers, and heretics in almost all conservative churches. I'm am far more conservative and far less compromising than my accusers. My family has had to leave 3 churches over these issues. All 3 churches claimed these things were not issues at the time we joined.

The big name YEC leaders spread lies about Scripture as well as about science and about people who disagree with them. Too many YEC believers accept these lies as truth. Vosseler even started a thread just to spout and accuse TEs of being nonbelievers. How does that help? How does it help when YECs make heros out of demonstrated frauds and liars?

Yes this is a serious charge. But it is true. The big name YECs can not allow people to have an honest disagreement.

 

[SBG]

SBG,



YECs control the conservative churches. TEs and OECs are labelled unbelievers, compromisers, and heretics in almost all conservative churches. I'm am far more conservative and far less compromising than my accusers. My family has had to leave 3 churches over these issues. All 3 churches claimed these things were not issues at the time we joined.

The big name YEC leaders spread lies about Scripture as well as about science and about people who disagree with them. Too many YEC believers accept these lies as truth. Vosseler even started a thread just to spout and accuse TEs of being nonbelievers. How does that help? How does it help when YECs make heros out of demonstrated frauds and liars?

Yes this is a serious charge. But it is true. The big name YECs can not allow people to have an honest disagreement.

As I read what you have said here, I feel for you. I must confess though, what you have said focuses on what people do to you, instead of how you can treat others, regardless of how they have treated you.

I have been called an idolater, a false Christian, and many other names by some TEs and people of other beliefs about origins that differ from my own. Can I then justify myself when I show neither mercy nor grace because others have treated me badly? I cannot. I have treated God badly by not following His commandments at all times. Because I have failed many times to honor Him and keep His commandments, I have broken the first commandment of love thy God with all thy heart. For if I did, I would have kept His commandments at all times. It is written, if we break one commandment, we have broken them all.

My point is simple, I pray that God doesn't hold against me my wrong doings and therefor forgives me and gives me mercy and grace for the faith He has given me in Jesus Christ. I cannot, with a good concious, expect this from God when I won't give it to others. Jesus said, 'Forgive us as we forgive others.'

So, I ask, trying not to accuse you nor offend you, can we expect God do for us what we won't do for others?

Jesus prayed for those who crucified Him, asking the Father to forgive them for what they did. It is my prayer that I can, with God's help, do as Christ did. Letting go of what others have done to me, to focus on how God wants me to be towards others.

Can this be done here by all? Forgive others, show them mercy and give them grace? To not forgive or show mercy and grace is to place a stumbling block before one's own self in their walk with Jesus Christ.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

SBG,



YECs control the conservative churches. TEs and OECs are labelled unbelievers, compromisers, and heretics in almost all conservative churches. I'm am far more conservative and far less compromising than my accusers. My family has had to leave 3 churches over these issues. All 3 churches claimed these things were not issues at the time we joined.

The big name YEC leaders spread lies about Scripture as well as about science and about people who disagree with them. Too many YEC believers accept these lies as truth. Vosseler even started a thread just to spout and accuse TEs of being nonbelievers. How does that help? How does it help when YECs make heros out of demonstrated frauds and liars?

Yes this is a serious charge. But it is true. The big name YECs can not allow people to have an honest disagreement.

Wow, is this now the OEC forum? Seems like that with the way YEC are being attacked recently as show by the quote above.

 

[Mathematician]

Wow, is this now the OEC forum? Seems like that with the way YEC are being attacked recently as show by the quote above.

It's titled:

Creationism
The subforum for young-earth and other creationist members.

SBC asked why the animosity. I guess you expected an answer of, "Because TE's and OEC's are unbelievers, liars, and heretics just like Kent Hovind says."

 

[Mathematician]

As I read what you have said here, I feel for you. I must confess though, what you have said focuses on what people do to you, instead of how you can treat others, regardless of how they have treated you.

Yes, you are correct. I've not really given much detail at all. The first time, the preacher had a change of heart (money was involved), repented of his "sin" and started vehemently condemning those who believed what he formerly believed. My wife was pregnant and had cancer at the time so we stuck around. That preacher left 6 weeks later and was replaced by a like-minded one. Maybe I acted badly, but if I did, why did did they keep me on as a deacon? Why did they continue keep me as treasurer? The second church will insist it's all our fault. The third time, we just quickly left. No one can fault us for anything except leaving "too soon." But if we're fools and heretics, why would they even want us?

Can this be done here by all? Forgive others, show them mercy and give them grace? To not forgive or show mercy and grace is to place a stumbling block before one's own self in their walk with Jesus Christ.

The Church has not done this since Nicea. Sometimes I try, but not having any examples around me, I don't even know what it's supposed to look like.

 

[SBG]

Yes, you are correct. I've not really given much detail at all. The first time, the preacher had a change of heart (money was involved), repented of his "sin" and started vehemently condemning those who believed what he formerly believed. My wife was pregnant and had cancer at the time so we stuck around. That preacher left 6 weeks later and was replaced by a like-minded one. Maybe I acted badly, but if I did, why did did they keep me on as a deacon? Why did they continue keep me as treasurer? The second church will insist it's all our fault. The third time, we just quickly left. No one can fault us for anything except leaving "too soon." But if we're fools and heretics, why would they even want us?

Why they did what they did, I don't know. What I do know is that not one person is perfect and everyone makes mistakes, more than we all would like to admit. If I cannot forgive another for their mistake, then I cannot expect God to forgive me. Isn't that what we each truly want? Forgiveness from God? To live with God for eternity?

If so, why is it that we have such a hard time showing it to each other, and then expect it from God when we kneel and pray to Him?

The Church has not done this since Nicea. Sometimes I try, but not having any examples around me, I don't even know what it's supposed to look like.

Then, may I suggest that instead of looking around you, you look to Jesus Christ? He is the example we are to follow. Reading about His life gives us many examples of what it looks like to offer grace, mercy and forgiveness.

I believe that is the paradox of this forum. We lack giving to others what God gives us. We don't deserve all that God gives us.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

It's titled:

Creationism
The subforum for young-earth and other creationist members.

SBC asked why the animosity. I guess you expected an answer of, "Because TE's and OEC's are unbelievers, liars, and heretics just like Kent Hovind says."

I know for a fact that Kent Hovind doesn't say denying evolution is required for salvation. So please don't put things into people's mouths. It isn't very Christian like. I'm not saying I agree with 100% of what Kent says or how he says it but that doesn't justify misrepresenting him.

 

[Mathematician]

I know for a fact that Kent Hovind doesn't say denying evolution is required for salvation. So please don't put things into people's mouths. It isn't very Christian like. I'm not saying I agree with 100% of what Kent says or how he says it but that doesn't justify misrepresenting him.

I'm not misrepresenting Hovind. I've got a DVD of his debate with Hugh Ross. Hovind says a lot of things. He used the H word several times. If what you say is true, then Hovind just likes to throw out the word heresy just for effect.

I'll pull up quotes when I can and post the examples.

 

[shernren]

I know for a fact that Kent Hovind doesn't say denying evolution is required for salvation. So please don't put things into people's mouths. It isn't very Christian like. I'm not saying I agree with 100% of what Kent says or how he says it but that doesn't justify misrepresenting him.

Kent Hovind's actions speak louder than his words.

 

[SBG]

Kent Hovind's actions speak louder than his words.

As do all of us. In a thread where I asked why we can't show each grace and mercy and why we must argue at all times, arguing breaks out.

A conclusion could be drawn that we like to disagree and cause strife amongst each other. That we find it fulfilling to give into our pride and show others neither mercy nor grace. If this is a correct conclusion, why? If this is an incorrect conclusion, why do the actions seem to show this?