What has God got against animals?

[Chris V++]

Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? Mat 6:26

 

[harmonicaman]

And then there's God sacrificing his own Son for reasons I've never understood.

OB

I understand that part. I can understand why people become atheist. Especially with the amount of killing innocent people in the Old Testament. Sometimes I wonder why I'm still hanging on. I'd never become an Atheist, but would have no problem dumping Christianity.(the religion) Take a look....

Is the Bible the Word of God?

 

[harmonicaman]

Charles Stanley says there will be no animals in heaven because they have no souls. That is the only thing I disagree with him on or I hope he is wrong.

I'm pretty sure the bible says animals have souls - they don't have a spirit.

 

[Mark Quayle]

For anyone else reading, carefully consider the exchanges up to this point. I suggested we are created for purpose. Mark questioned that with a rhetorical question, "says who"?

No, John. You are misrepresenting the facts. You said the purpose ("point of humanity") was to learn and grow. I did not dispute that we are here for a purpose, nor even that we ourselves purpose to do things while here.

But, Mark's pride can't handle that simple truth, so he persevered with this weird challenge to purpose by accusing me of assuming that we humans act with purpose. It's a ridiculous claim. Mark, even now, is posting with a purpose (though I think that purpose is misguided anger toward God).

Boy have you got me wrong! I am not angry with God --in fact, I depend on God for my very life, not to mention he is my source of joy and satisfaction. But again, where do you get the false notion I object to purpose? I insist on purpose --God's purpose-- as supreme above even our own desires and pursuits, and even our instincts (the "learn and grow" part).

Why is Mark doing this? It's a stubborn argument. He doesn't want to move past this point. It's an avoidance. I responded by asking,

"Do you feel no purpose in learning and growing?"

This is an important question, because Mark is suggesting that we are not here to learn and grow; that it is foolish to suggest there is purpose in learning and growing.

At the risk of calling you delusional, I notice your love for your series of words seems to have you thinking illogically, "if purpose, THE purpose". But, I think I should point out that not only have you got me all wrong about what I deny, i.e. you are wrong about me challenging "purpose", but you have constructed a whole scenario of motivations for me to do what I didn't even do (to wit, denying purpose)!

I am not at all suggesting we are not (among other purposes) here to learn and grow. You seem to have read maybe the first few lines of my posts and ignored the rest. I have used the notion of purpose in showing that God himself has purpose for us, and that our own (self-derived, or self-motivated) purposes are nowhere near as important as his, and even showed that what is instinctual, though admittedly also "purpose", which includes learning and growing, (even when we decide to increase it, it is still [also] an instinctual practice.) is way down the list of what God made us for, "far secondary" to his primary purpose --we are here for his use of us for his own Glory.

To rehash: Yes we are here for a purpose. I never said otherwise. All I said was what you posited was not THE purpose. I posited what I believe to be THE purpose. After a bit of back and forth you launch into some kind of tirade accusing me of what (to me) is plain heresy, and most definitely not applicable to me. I can find no reason for you to do so, other than by your misunderstanding of my, "Who says?" (to mean that I disagree with purpose), you saw an easy mark (yeah, pun) and dove wholehog into the mess.

I almost wish I had planned for you to misunderstand me. I will leave it here to avoid launching myself into regrettable sarcasms and worse.

 

[returntosender]

I'm pretty sure the bible says animals have souls - they don't have a spirit.

I don't know about that. I have had cats and dogs that were plenty spirited, lol.

 

[returntosender]

I hope you two will stop fighting, you are ruining the thread.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I understand that part. I can understand why people become atheist. Especially with the amount of killing innocent people in the Old Testament. Sometimes I wonder why I'm still hanging on. I'd never become an Atheist, but would have no problem dumping Christianity. Take a look....

Is the Bible the Word of God?

 

[Mark Quayle]

God kills pretty much everybody, doesn't he, even if by old age? This is all his doing. You think he leaves something to chance?

And do you think Chance can determine anything?

God can (and will) do as he pleases. He made us and he owns us.

 

[John Helpher]

I almost wish I had planned for you to misunderstand me.

I'm glad to hear it's just a misunderstanding.

You said the purpose ("point of humanity") was to learn and grow. I did not dispute that we are here for a purpose, nor even that we ourselves purpose to do things while here.

I guess your dispute with my comment was that we are not here to learn and grow, bur rather for some other purpose? At the risk of antagonizing you further, it really does seem like you could have just said what you think this other purpose is, instead of saying, "Says who"?

Or, am I still misunderstanding you?

 

[Tellyontellyon]

Children and those who can't choose against Jesus (or at the point choose against God) go to heaven.

A good case for supporting abortion.

 

[Lukaris]

Maybe the ancient Israelites in their struggles for survival misunderstood at times when God spoke or not. While accounts like Joshua 6 are written in a predetermined way, they must have been written after the fact. I suppose if Nazi Germany existed in ancient times & was defeated in a proportional fashion then, an account of divine wrath on them would have been written. The book of Ecclesiastes, I believe, dispels much misconceptions of God.

Ecclesiastes concludes as Solomon tells us to fear God & keep His commandments ( Ecclesiastes 12:9-14, from within the whole context of Ecclesiastes 12). Christ told a rich young man basically the same thing ( Matthew 19:16-19) which, I think, is the overall meaning of the parable ( Matthew 19:16-26).

In Luke 9, Jesus showed His meaning to the disciples by feeding thousands, His divinity, etc. Yet, the disciples still wanted to see wrath on a Samaritan village; the Lord rebuked them ( Luke 9:51-56, I think the KJV translation is best: Bible Gateway passage: Luke 9:51-56 - King James Version
).

I believe the Lord took human misconceptions of God to the cross. The Bible is the word of God because it is a lesson to us. If we miss the formation & conclusion of the commandments within the Gospel, we miss out altogether. Jesus Christ basically sums up that the Bible is His word by His commandments ( carefully read Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 7:12 & then Matthew 7:1-12). Christ testifies to the scriptures ( Luke 24:44-49).

I think the early Christians received their faith by way of the commandments as an ancient church manual testifies:

Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

Didache

My post was intended for a different thread that ran right next to this one.

 

[aiki]

God created all the animals, and he made them before humans... and he saw that they were Good!
So what went wrong?
He wiped out most of the animals during the flood, then the animal sacrifice thing? Why does killing innocent animals make God happy? Good grief!

Animals aren't "innocent." Such a term suggests a moral dimension to animals that doesn't exist. It should indicate the value of animals that God treats them as He does. Were they important in the way so many people think they are, God would take greater measures to ensure their well-being. But it is clear that the way many have humanized animals is distorting the place animals ought to occupy in their thinking and affections.

What makes you think God is made happy by the sacrifice of animals? Their sacrifice was necessary at one time, not in order to make God happy, but to atone for sin.

Then Jesus... I guess his sacrifice made it so we don't have to sacrifice animals anymore... but then there was the thing with the pigs... was it pigs?...
I mean.. really!
Wasn't there a better way to get rid of demons.
I like animals and when I look into the eyes of an animal I see a living, knowing, feeling being, a being with soul... Are humans so mistaken when they feel a connection with and love for animals when God doesn't seem to care for them?
Why so much blood and sacrifice?

Animals don't have souls - whatever you may want to imagine when you look into their eyes.

God has cared for animals, equipping them with instincts, and physical features, and environments that enable their survival. But He did not die for them; they are in an entirely different, lower class of being from us. We are made in God's image; animals are not.

God has ordained that only by the shedding of blood is there remission of sin. Hence, animal sacrifice and the once-for-all sacrifice of Himself on a cross for your sin.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

I am struggling to find the morality in this, if what is moral is simply what God says then how can we look at God himself and say he is Good or Bad.... God defines himself as Good, but there is no objective standpoint from which a human can decide.
If Satan were the more powerful then Satan would then be self defined as 'Good.'
Isn't this a morality based on power=good? Or, more accurately, no morality whatsoever.

 

[aiki]

I am struggling to find the morality in this, if what is moral is simply what God says then how can we look at God himself and say he is Good or Bad.... God defines himself as Good, but there is no objective standpoint from which a human can decide.

Does God simply define Himself as good? Is it that God has just arbitrarily, capriciously, decided that love, joy, peace, holiness and so on (the things God is) are morally good? Or does God issue us the moral commands He does in reflection of His morally good nature? The Christian holds to the latter view. God's moral commands arise from His nature, not merely from arbitrary divine fiat. It isn't that God could say tomorrow "I declare rape and murder morally good," and so it would be. God could only do such a thing in violation of His divine moral perfection, which His morally-perfect nature would necessarily prohibit. God, then, can only declare morally-right those things that are in accordance with, that reflect, His morally-right nature. He cannot just arbitrarily make an evil, good and a good, evil.

 

[NBB]

Maybe we became too soft, before hunting animals and skinning them / butchering them, was a part of life, people didn't think twice.

Also i don't think animals can have eternal life, or even are conciouss of themselves like people, so people have a lot greater value.

 

[Sketcher]

God created all the animals, and he made them before humans... and he saw that they were Good!
So what went wrong?
He wiped out most of the animals during the flood, then the animal sacrifice thing? Why does killing innocent animals make God happy? Good grief!
Then Jesus... I guess his sacrifice made it so we don't have to sacrifice animals anymore... but then there was the thing with the pigs... was it pigs?...
I mean.. really!
Wasn't there a better way to get rid of demons.
I like animals and when I look into the eyes of an animal I see a living, knowing, feeling being, a being with soul... Are humans so mistaken when they feel a connection with and love for animals when God doesn't seem to care for them?
Why so much blood and sacrifice?

If God hated animals, he wouldn't have made laws that protected animals.
And even if he did, they are his creation to do with as he pleases.

 

[Sketcher]

.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Animal sacrifice has been a common practice in cultures around the world. What we see in God's dealings with ancient Israel is directing that impetus of cultic sacrifice in a specific direction. God didn't get any pleasure from animal sacrifices, and the Old Testament rather plainly says as much. What God did care about was contrition, humility, and repentance. The point of sacrifice was the contrition behind it, not the actual sacrifice itself. Which is why God says, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice".

For Christians, we also believe that the sacrificial system served to point toward the fuller reality of Christ and His offering Himself in death. That the things of the Torah acted, as St. Paul says, like a tutor, pointing toward Jesus.

God doesn't have a problem with animals. They are His creatures, and He loves them. Jesus says God cares about every sparrow. And God's purposes in Christ is for not just human beings, but for all of creation.

And in Christianity this has, at least historically, been well understood. Animal abuse is, and always has been, a sin.

In one of the ancient legends surrounding St. Paul, he once encountered a lion in the wilderness, but rather than attack, the lion requested that he receive baptism to be a Christian. Paul obliged, baptizing the lion. Later on, while Paul is pit against wild beasts in Ephesus (an event he actually writes about in his letters) the same lion that he had baptized is forced into the arena. The lion and St. Paul then greet one another as brothers, and pray together.

Obviously, again, this is a legend and shouldn't be taken as anything more than that. But what the legend shows us is how early Christians saw themselves in relation to other creatures, even the beasts have a share in God's gift of salvation for the world. Even as the Prophet Isaiah when speaking of the Age to Come mentions that the wolf and the lamb shall lay down together, and the lion shall eat straw like an ox, for on that day peace has come to all creation.

In many churches the Feast Day of St. Francis of Assisi is celebrated by the Blessing of the Animals. Which means, yes, people bring their cats, dogs, hamsters, lizards, and other furry, feathery, scaly family members to church and receive a blessing.

-CryptoLutheran