What happens...

[seekingpurity047]

Hey... I was just wondering. Using scripture, can you explain to me what happens to those who have never had the opportunity to hear the gospel? Do they go to hell/heaven? I want to understand this, as there are a lot of questions about it.

Thanks guys! I appreciate it!

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[reformedfan]

they go to hell, Adam's sin & their own being sufficient to condemn them for all eternity.

yeah, that sux. Support your missionaries!

 

[reformedfan]

Scripture, hmmm, Psalm 19, Romans 1, Acts 17

 

[Defcon]

I agree with reformedfan. The Reformed doctrine accepts this much better than Arminianism. We know in Acts that the Holy Spirit forbid Paul from entering certain lands to preach the gospel. I don't believe this gives us the right to stop missionaries today (as we don't know who the elect are) - I do believe that God's Sovereign will allows His elect to hear His word and believe.

 

[CCWoody]

I would suggest the Institutes book 1, the first few chapters for an excellent examination of this subject. I believe it centers on these words....

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who supress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,....

And I have been using Psalsms 19 in the GA forum today for the same reason.

 

[Beoga]

I wrote this to a friend after a much "heated" "discussion". Hopefully it will be somewhat helpful:
Will Those that Have Never Heard the Gospel be Saved?


Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.


Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

-God’s wrath is against all ungodliness, all those who are ungodly. Scripture tells us that everyone is under sin, and that all have sin:
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Everyone is under sin. Everyone is unacceptable to God. There is none who are righteous. What does righteous mean? The Greek word found in Romans 3:10 is:
G1342
δίκαιος
dikaios
Thayer Definition:
1) righteous, observing divine laws
1a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
1a1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
1a2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
1a3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
1a3a) only Christ truly
1a4) approved of or acceptable of God
1b) in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1349
Citing in TDNT: 2:182, 168
As we can see, one is righteous if they keep the laws of God, if they are pure and Holy. Are they acceptable in the sight of God? Are those in Africa who have never heard the Gospel acceptable/righteous to God? NO! They are sinners, they are under sin, they have sinned.

Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
--It is evident, even to those tribes in Africa, that there is a God. God has left them without an excuse. Even though God has not given them the Gospel (not that He owes them the Gospel), God has made Himself evident through His creation, through nature. Yet these tribes suppressed what they knew about God (through His creation), they have become fools. A fool says in His heart that there is no God:

Psa 53:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."

Like the atheist, these tribes say that there is no (Christian) God. They are in the same
boat as the atheist, and that is condemned in the site of God.

What do these tribes do?

Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
-These tribes create their own god. Every tribe that I have heard of have had some type of religion, some type of spirituality, some type of god. This shows that they deny what they have been shown (that God is real). They suppress what they have been shown by creating images of man and birds and animals and reptiles.

These people have been shown God and thus are an unbeliever. I was arguing from the assumption that they have not been shown God.

 

[Salesian]

A related verse is Ephesians 4:17,18:

This I say therefore, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart.

However, are they ignorant because of the hardness of their heart? Or are they excluded from the life of God because of both their ignorance and the hardness of their heart? Hmmmm...

Also John 3:18:

He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So, an important question is, does that refer to ignorance of some information that a person has not been presented with, or does it refer to "affected ignorance," that is, deliberately resolving not to learn about something that one has the opportunity to know about?

Based on your understanding of the Limited Atonement and Unconditional Election, who are you to say that any particular person who has not been reached by a Christian missionary is not among God's elect? It's God who grants faith.

Is the extent of the atonement, or the reach of God's grace then limited by the missionary zeal of His Church? I think not... And if not, then perhaps God is be free to use supernatural means to enlighten people about truths (namely, the Incarnation and the Trinity) necessary to Christian faith.

 

[inchristalone221]

ased on your understanding of the Limited Atonement and Unconditional Election, who are you to say that any particular person who has not been reached by a Christian missionary is not among God's elect? It's God who grants faith.

I submit that God could regenerate those who never heard the gospel proper. However, the burden of proof would be on you to show that He does.

 

[Imblessed]

Romans 10:13-17

For "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved" 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "how beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!"16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ.


since these verses make it clear that those who hear the word of God, and believe it, and call on the name of the Lord will be saved--I'd say that God will take the gospel to those who are elect so they may hear, and believe, and call on the Lord.

However, I will not presume that God cannot do it differently, I just see no evidence that He does.

Romans 1:18-23 makes clear:
(thanks littleapologist for posting this so I could paste!! )

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

 

[Bob Moore]

A related verse is Ephesians 4:17,18:

This I say therefore, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart.

However, are they ignorant because of the hardness of their heart? Or are they excluded from the life of God because of both their ignorance and the hardness of their heart? Hmmmm...

Let's look at the connection between ignorance and hardness of heart.

The ungodly can aquire as much secular knowledge as they desire, but they can never come to a knowledge of the truth (2 Timothy 3:7). The natural (that is, fallen) man is unable becuse of his fallen condition to comprehend the things of God. Because the natural man is ignorant of the things of God he becomes futile in his thinking and his heart is darkened (Romans 1:21). The Greek from which we get 'being darkened' indicates a continuing condition of spiritual darkness, and implies both ignorance and immorality. The cause of their darkness is the hardness of their hearts and willful decision to remain in sin. (Romans 1: 21-22,24). Hardness is a consequence of willful ignorance.

 

[Imblessed]

I found this on the Christian and Missionary Alliance website. The whole article is rather long but a great read. Look for the word doc "the lostness of man". If you don't want to read the whole thing, scroll down to the heading "what about those who have never heard of Jesus?" (bottom of page 11)

http://www.cmalliance.org/whoweare/distinctives/distinctives.jsp

 

[Rolf Ernst]

I found this on the Christian and Missionary Alliance website. The whole article is rather long but a great read. Look for the word doc "the lostness of man". If you don't want to read the whole thing, scroll down to the heading "what about those who have never heard of Jesus?" (bottom of page 11)

http://www.cmalliance.org/whoweare/distinctives/distinctives.jsp

Thanks for posting that , Imblessed. The whole thing is well worthy of being read. There are indications on that website that the people are primarily if not wholly Arminian, but that doesn't mean God doesn't work with and bless their efforts. I will not overlook the fact, however, nor should anyone overlook the fact, that the credit for the article belongs primarily to Wm. Shedd, who is a staunch Calvinist. It is taken almost entirely from his writings.

 

[Imblessed]

Thanks for posting that , Imblessed. The whole thing is well worthy of being read. There are indications on that website that the people are primarily if not wholly Arminian, but that doesn't mean God doesn't work with and bless their efforts. I will not overlook the fact, however, nor should anyone overlook the fact, that the credit for the article belongs primarily to Wm. Shedd, who is a staunch Calvinist. It is taken almost entirely from his writings.

I have a very good friend who attends a C and MA church. Her husband was an aspiring Presbyterian minister(until his dyslexia got in the way of his greek, I guess) and she's grew up pentecostal--they are both most definately calvinists. They are very happy in this church. I think the Christian and Missionary Alliance churches fall into a "don't want to fight about it attitude" when it comes to calvinism. I would say though, that if their church was arminian, they wouldn't be happy, because when I talked with her last about churches, finding a church that taught the Doctrines of Grace were high on their list, and one that would let her "almost PCA pastor' husband teach was another. And they were happy with this church.

I didn't look through much of the rest of that website though....

 

[heymikey80]

Using scripture, can you explain to me what happens to those who have never had the opportunity to hear the gospel? Do they go to hell/heaven? I want to understand this, as there are a lot of questions about it.

Yeah, I know there are a lot of questions about it!

OK, maybe I'm diverging a little from the topic into "how it works", but I hope it helps in some way.

A few odd observations:

1. Do you find it odd how many people want to re-create God to be more of a doormat; and yet they don't want to be more of a doormat, themselves? Hm. They want God to give everyone a chance, even given that no one deserves even the first chance for eternity with God. So God's essentially attacked for not giving away everything He has every right to keep for Himself.

2. I think there's a slightly broader view of the Gospel to address, too. I mean, Abraham heard the Gospel (Gal 3:8). Nobody there to tell him but God. ("but ... God ..." what'm I saying!) I guess I find it more amazing that God's settling on us as the people commissioned to carry His Gospel to the world.

I dunno if Abe knew Jesus' name. But he saw God in a way others didn't, as a God Who favored some and would blaze a way to save those who entrusted themselves to Him. Did Abraham have to know the Gospel future history of Christ, or is this reliance what's needed? I would say Abe's pattern is a highly exceptional means of salvation.

3. Then God built a whole nation of people who were looking for the Messiah. What did they know about the Messiah before God told them through the prophets? Pretty much what Abe told them: what's been passed down to us. Again, this is pretty exceptional stuff. But God can do what He wants. We're just trying to keep up. God is free to reach out to anyone. But He has commissioned us (Mt 28:18-20), and we're trying to keep up with the Spirit Who is working in the world (Jn 3:8).

When we're talking about people who haven't heard a thing about Jesus' sacrifice, I think we're talking about conditions like these. God is free to act. But now He's commissioned us to act, so that we can show off more of God's concern and love for the world, through our own visible actions.

4. I don't think it's possible to reject Jesus' sacrifice and search for some other favor God bestows (Jn 3:18). God says that would deny His greatest gift: something God wouldn't take, sitting-down (2 Tim 2:12, 2 Pt 2:1, Jude :4, Hb 10:29). So once the Gospel is delivered, it holds real authority. It's the "straight stuff". If we corrupt it so badly that it's lost in delivery, that generates big problems for us as well as those who hear (1 Cor 3:10-17).