LDS What happens to ex-Mormon men?

ubicaritas · Jul 14, 2018

What you are describing is not "mainline Christianity". If you want a more appropriate term, "Nicene Christian" or Trinitarian may be a helpful distinction.

I used to go to an Episcopalian church years ago that was right next to a Mormon church that got alone fine with the congregation being in such close proximity. I think that's typical. Mainline Protestants don't recognize Mormon baptisms as valid, but we have no more antipathy towards Mormons than we do to Jews or Muslims.

ArmenianJohn · Jul 14, 2018

cfyahoo08 said:
Accusing "Mormon" people of not being Christian does not seem right to me. And you make a point to publicly defame a religion.

Seems perfectly right to me. Mormons are not Christian. Christians worship Christ only. Mormons do not worship their version of christ, they worship their heavenly father.

And if you want to go by the dictionary's definition "a person who believes in Jesus Christ" then muslims would be considered Christians also - but they're not.

Simply calling a religion for what it is is not "defaming".

Rescued One · Jul 14, 2018

Ironhold said:
In this day and age, one doesn't have to look too hard to find Mormons who had very bad experiences at the hands of mainline Christians.

Your old habit of accusing Christians has resurfaced. Christians are followers of Christ; Christ taught us to love others. He also said, "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" (Matthew 7:16)

Ironhold said:
At one point, we actually had a poster here on the debate board who tried to defend the calls for our deaths by saying that we'd somehow "declared war" on mainline Christianity and so we "deserved" whatever happened to us, up to and including death.

That person was not a Christian.

Ironhold said:
That's right - in this day and age, here in the US, there are people who think that we Mormons should all be killed for our beliefs.

There are murderers in all states and in other parts of the world. They aren't Christians.

Ironhold said:
The cottage industry that is the production of anti-Mormon material, material that is largely comprised of bald-faced lies, isn't helping matters any.

And there are Mormons who make unsubstantiated accusations such as this.

Ironhold said:
I think you can understand, then, why so many Mormons are soured on mainline Christianity: there are that many mainline Christians looking to stab us in the back, sometimes literally.

Jesus and His apostles were willing to die.

Ironhold said:
The hate is so deep that you'll even see people walk away from charitable efforts once they know that Mormon groups are looking to assist.

I wouldn't invite the enemies of Christ to join me, but it most certainly is not because of any hatred.

Ironhold said:
Does any of this sound like it paints an attractive picture of mainline Christianity?

Was it your goal to paint an attractive picture of mainline Christianity? I think not.

He is the way · Jul 14, 2018

Phoebe Ann said:
If you think Ezekiel 18:26-28 refers to my husband's wisdom and honesty in choosing Christ over Joseph Smith, you are wrong.

I have chosen Christ through His Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints which belongs to Jesus Christ.

Rescued One · Jul 15, 2018

He is the way said:
I have chosen Christ through His Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints which belongs to Jesus Christ.

I don't recall asking that question.

He is the way · Jul 15, 2018

Phoebe Ann said:
I don't recall asking that question.

It is impossible to chose Christ over the Bible or the Book of Mormon because they are both Christ's word.

dzheremi · Jul 15, 2018

He is the way said:
It is impossible to chose Christ over the Bible or the Book of Mormon because they are both Christ's word.

And yet there are over two billion people around the world who have chosen Christ and the Bible over the Book of Mormon. They're called Christians.

He is the way · Jul 15, 2018

dzheremi said:
And yet there are over two billion people around the world who have chosen Christ and the Bible over the Book of Mormon. They're called Christians.

I have seen that list, not all of them choose the Bible over the Book of Mormon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members

dzheremi · Jul 15, 2018

He is the way said:
I have seen that list, not all of them choose the Bible over the Book of Mormon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members

What does pointing to such a list do to address the point that you offered a false choice whereby choosing Mormonism is choosing Christ? I was merely pointing out that this isn't the case, and there are millions who prove it. It was not a point about denominations.

By the way, your religion also has such a list, which is quite extensive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_denominations_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

So it's not a great idea to point to any list you might find as though that makes your argument for you.

He is the way · Jul 15, 2018

dzheremi said:
What does pointing to such a list do to address the point that you offered a false choice whereby choosing Mormonism is choosing Christ? I was merely pointing out that this isn't the case, and there are millions who prove it. It was not a point about denominations.

By the way, your religion also has such a list, which is quite extensive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_denominations_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

So it's not a great idea to point to any list you might find as though that makes your argument for you.

There are also billions that do not believe in the New Testament, do you believe that makes it false?

dzheremi · Jul 15, 2018

He is the way said:
There are also billions that do not believe in the New Testament, do you believe that makes it false?

No, because my argument is not "the truth is in the numbers". All I'm saying is that your idea of people accepting the BOM and Mormonism as a witness to Christ applies to those people only (i.e., only Mormons) -- there are billions of people who reject the BOM and Mormonism and still follow Christ: Christians.

ArmenianJohn · Jul 15, 2018

He is the way said:
It is impossible to chose Christ over the Bible or the Book of Mormon because they are both Christ's word.

So you believe that the Bible and Book of Mormon are not Heavenly Father's Word?

dzheremi · Jul 15, 2018

Huh. I hadn't caught that in the original post. Given Mormonism's henotheistic theology and view of the persons of their trinity-like 'godhead' formation, that is an interesting question indeed.

He is the way · Jul 15, 2018

ArmenianJohn said:
So you believe that the Bible and Book of Mormon are not Heavenly Father's Word?

His word through Jesus Christ and the prophets, as is the Bible.

(New Testament | John 14:23 - 25)

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

Peter1000 · Jul 16, 2018

CodyFaith said:
Well that's a pretty sure means of control. Leave and be cursed forever. A very effective means to keep your numbers in place.

Good thing the real Jesus hears hearts of men and hears our intents and thoughts and sees those who dilligently seek him.

Those who believe in Jesus and trust his atonement for their sins, past, present and future, will be saved and forever adopted and loved as children. Jesus came to save those in chains of fear and the oppressed and set them free.

If you read John 15:2 Jesus makes an interesting statement: he says that those branches IN HIM, who produce no fruit are taken away. IOW they were once believers, but now they have lost their salvation. Even those branches that do produce some fruit are purged so as to produce more fruit.

So Jesus tells men that if they abandon their promises and their ordained priesthood responsibilities, they will lose their eternal lives. Just like he says in the NT that if you are IN HIM, but produce no fruit, you also lose your salvation. It should not be a shocking realization. The bible is full of what it takes to have EL and what it takes to lose EL. It is a guideline for us to know what to do and not to do. So believe in Christ, love Christ, love Jesus's words, and live the way Jesus intended you to live, and you will have EL. If you don't, you won't have EL, it is your choice.

ArmenianJohn · Jul 16, 2018

He is the way said:
His word through Jesus Christ and the prophets, as is the Bible.

(New Testament | John 14:23 - 25)

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

Earlier you said Christ's Word, now you're saying Heavenly Father's Word. Do you believe they are the same God?

Rescued One · Jul 16, 2018

Peter1000 said:
If you read John 15:2 Jesus makes an interesting statement: he says that those branches IN HIM, who produce no fruit are taken away. IOW they were once believers, but now they have lost their salvation. Even those branches that do produce some fruit are purged so as to produce more fruit.

No fruit is proof that they were never Christians.

Matthew 7
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Peter1000 said:
So Jesus tells men that if they abandon their promises and their ordained priesthood responsibilities, they will lose their eternal lives. Just like he says in the NT that if you are IN HIM, but produce no fruit, you also lose your salvation. It should not be a shocking realization. The bible is full of what it takes to have EL and what it takes to lose EL. It is a guideline for us to know what to do and not to do. So believe in Christ, love Christ, love Jesus's words, and live the way Jesus intended you to live, and you will have EL. If you don't, you won't have EL, it is your choice.

Jesus never said that. Salvation isn't based on our puny efforts. Some trees obviously don't produce good fruit. Mormonism teaches that my husband lost the eternal life he didn't have in Mormonism. Another peculiar thing about Mormonism is the lack of spiritual discernment that is supposed to be given to bishops and other leaders. First of all, people have been baptized who never believed Mormonism. Then people without those testimonies are ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood. Then people without testimonies are permitted to baptize others.

He is the way · Jul 16, 2018

ArmenianJohn said:
Earlier you said Christ's Word, now you're saying Heavenly Father's Word. Do you believe they are the same God?

Did you see the scripture I posted? However they are one God:
(Book of Mormon | Alma 11:43 - 44)

43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt.
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

He is the way · Jul 16, 2018

Phoebe Ann said:
No fruit is proof that they were never Christians.

Matthew 7
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Jesus never said that. Salvation isn't based on our puny efforts. Some trees obviously don't produce good fruit. Mormonism teaches that my husband lost the eternal life he didn't have in Mormonism. Another peculiar thing about Mormonism is the lack of spiritual discernment that is supposed to be given to bishops and other leaders. First of all, people have been baptized who never believed Mormonism. Then people without those testimonies are are ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood. Then people without testimonies are permitted to baptize others.

You said: "Another peculiar thing about Mormonism is the lack of spiritual discernment...." Bishops and leaders do have spiritual discernment. I have seen it.

You said: "Then people without those testimonies are are ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood." When ordained to the priesthood a person has the authority to use that priesthood. Peter was made an apostle before he was converted.

You said:"Mormonism teaches that my husband lost the eternal life" No it does not. It is not up to us to judge. Jesus Christ is the judge, He and only He will judge. However all of us are to repent and refrain from sin as stated in the Bible.

dzheremi · Jul 16, 2018

He is the way said:
Did you see the scripture I posted? However they are one God:
(Book of Mormon | Alma 11:43 - 44)

43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt.
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

With due respect, I don't believe that answers ArmenianJohn's question.

We know from past experience with Mormons here that when you say "one God", you have in mind Mormon-specific theology that differs radically from that of Christianity. Going into detail about how the three are one God is when we get to the substance of the difference between your religion and ours, so you cannot simply post some piece of LDS scripture that does not go into such detail and leave it at that.

Because the three beings of the Mormon trinity are not united in any way that is related to their essence, but are instead united in things like "love" and whatnot, it means something that a Mormon would say that such and such is "Jesus' word" versus being "God's (the Father's) word", so it is right to ask you at this juncture if you believe them to be one God, and if so how.

LDS What happens to ex-Mormon men?

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