What happens to babies when they die?

[Jig]

It was a double reference.

Jesus was talking about both: literal children, and those who become like little children (those who humble themselves before God).

I disagree. He used a literal child only as an example to prove a point about status. He was certainly not talking about literal children.

Allow me to explain: A child was a person of no importance in Jewish society, subject to the authority of his elders, not taken seriously except as a responsibility, one to be looked after, not one to be looked up to.

To turn and become like children is therefore a radical reorientation from the mentality of the rat-race to an acceptance of insignificance. It is, then, the status of the child that is the point, rather than any supposedly characteristic quality of children, such as humility, innocence, receptiveness or trustfulness.

One such child therefore is not a reference to children as such, but to those who as Jesus' followers (in my name), whether young or adult, have accepted a status similar to a child.

 

[Gottservant]

Babies exist between worlds, therefore when the world is taken from them, they go to be with the Lord.

This fulfils the scripture that all will kneel and confess that Jesus is Lord, even those who have not yet been corrupted by the world, through possession of the Devil, unto damnation.

 

[Jig]

Everyone will be resurrected. Everyone.

So here is an interesting question. What will the resurrected body of a young child look like? What will the resurrected body of a ninety-seven year old look like? What will the resurrected body of a physically-disabled person look like?

I'm going to go off several Scriptural implications (and simple rationality) and assume that their bodies will not be as they were when they died. The young child, elderly person, and disabled person will not have to spend eternity as a toddler, geriatric, or cripple.

As such, this visual of "babies" being tossed into hell is misleading.

 

[Strong in Him]

Everyone will be resurrected. Everyone.

So here is an interesting question. What will the resurrected body of a young child look like? What will the resurrected body of a ninety-seven year old look like? What will the resurrected body of a physically-disabled person look like?

I'm going to go off several Scriptural implications (and simple rationality) and assume that their bodies will not be as they were when they died. The young child, elderly person, and disabled person will not have to spend eternity as a toddler, geriatric, or cripple.

As such, this visual of "babies" being tossed into hell is misleading.

Well I suppose that's one way of avoiding the questions I asked you earlier.

 

[SharonL]

The last breath they take here is their first breath in Heaven. Even the 60 million babies we have killed are in Heaven.

 

[Jig]

Well I suppose that's one way of avoiding the questions I asked you earlier.

Are you talking about post 259? I gave an answer to that in post 261.

 

[Jig]

The last breath they take here is their first breath in Heaven. Even the 60 million babies we have killed are in Heaven.

The Bible is very clear that before anyone goes to Heaven (New Earth) or Hell (Lake of Fire) they first must be resurrected and face the Great White Throne for their ultimate judgement. This is when the Book of Life is opened and those whose names are written in this book will go to everlasting life.

This is all still future. No one has been resurrected yet besides Jesus.

 

[tulipbee]

The last breath they take here is their first breath in Heaven. Even the 60 million babies we have killed are in Heaven.

How do you know all of them are in Heaven?

 

[shturt678]

I would say that all the unborns that prematurely passed on are not in hell - based upon: they never confronted the Truth and rejected, ie, IIThess.2:10b.

Newly borns that have the ability to believe, ie, Matt.18:6, etc., and underwent a water baptism in the wrong Name, not forever good - woe to the baptizer. Those that never underwent water baptism, possibly very forever good, ie, IIThess.2:10b again.

Just a side note: Rev.20:4, the saints John saw were "souls." Here psuxai is clearly and completely human. All the millennialist are certain that the "souls" mentioned in this verse have bodies, namely, their own bodies by virtue of "the first resurrection" (v.5). They misinterpret "the first resurrection" and thus "the souls" and the whole of vs. 1-6, by placing it chronologically after Rev.19:17-21, into their millennium with its two bodily resurrections. It is theosophy to claim that in the other world souls must at once have bodies.

Just ol' old infant dunker Jack

 

[Strong in Him]

Are you talking about post 259? I gave an answer to that in post 261.

No, I'm talking about post 239.

Do you believe God creates and gives life? Do you believe Psalm 139 which says that God sees, and watches over us, in the womb?
If so, how can you believe that babies are born sinners, when you have previously said that God does not come into contact with sin?
And if for some reason God does create all human beings to be sinful, why would he condemn them if they die (through no choice of their own) before they can come to know their Saviour?

How does this fit with a God who is love, and a perfect, loving heavenly father?

 

[shturt678]

Guilty, guilty, and guilty in even in the womb. Hereditary sin ("ancestral sin") Ps.51:5; Ezek.18; Jn.3:6; Rom.5:12-21; ICor.15:22.

Just ol' old infant dunker Jack

 

[Jig]

Do you believe God creates and gives life? Do you believe Psalm 139 which says that God sees, and watches over us, in the womb?
If so, how can you believe that babies are born sinners, when you have previously said that God does not come into contact with sin?
And if for some reason God does create all human beings to be sinful, why would he condemn them if they die (through no choice of their own) before they can come to know their Saviour?

God is holy. As such, He cannot be spiritually connected with a sinner (this is the spiritual death that separates us from God). This doesn't mean that God cannot interact with sinners though. Jesus is a prime example of this - being fully God He physically came into contact with sinners (but not sin itself) - Jesus never sinned.

God didn't "create" human beings to be sinners (they became sinners on their own). Adam was created sinless. All humanity stems from Adam and Eve's genetics, it is through them that all are born sinners. God had nothing to do with this.

What do you think of Romans 9:10-15?

And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad - in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls - she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

How does this fit with a God who is love, and a perfect, loving heavenly father?

I've noticed that you like to only focus on some of God's attributes (the ones that seemingly help your case).

The vast majority of the billions of people who "God formed in their mother's womb" are heading to everlasting hell. This only looks poorly on God if you misappropriate His attributes.

 

[Strong in Him]

God is holy.

I know.

As such, He cannot be spiritually connected with a sinner (this is the spiritual death that separates us from God).

We aren't spiritually one with God, obviously - at least, not until we have been reconciled through the death of Jesus. The point is that babies aren't in a position to know, or accept, that. But neither do they know, or confess, that they are sinners.
The whole question is; does God have mercy on those who have not known, or been able to know, him? Or does he say, "too bad, not my problem; you will spend eternity without me even though you did not know - or what'smore have a chance to know - me when you were alive."? I say he has mercy because he is merciful - and compassionate, and love.
In the same way that I believe that he judges people who had/have never heard the Gospel according to what they DID know and how they lived and behaved. Could be wrong and can't prove it - but God is merciful and loving, so that's how I believe he acts.

God didn't "create" human beings to be sinners (they became sinners on their own).

I know. We will all sin, choose to sin and turn away from God at some point in our lives. But babies/toddlers can't make that choice - either to sin, or to repent and call out to God if they do sin.

What do you think of Romans 9:10-15?

And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad - in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls - she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

I think that the commentary/book I once read on this is correct; that in Hebrew thought, if you were chosen by God, it meant he loved you, and if you weren't chosen by God, they believed that this meant that he hated you. Jacob was chosen to be the father of the 12 tribes of Israel; Esau wasn't.
God doesn't hate; he is love (1 John 4:8), and love is kind, patient, does not envy, keeps no records of wrongs, is not rude, does not delight in evil, always protects, always hopes, always perseveres, (1 Cor 13:4-8). Love never fails. God is also light, and there is NO darkness in him; at all, (1 John 1:5,7).
God hates sin and evil - because as you rightly say, he is holy and cannot tolerate it. He shows anger towards those who constantly, and persistently, reject him - you only need to read the OT, and Jesus' words to the Pharisees to know that. But he doesn't hate sinners - he died for them! He could have destroyed Adam and Eve when they sinned, but he didn't. He could have killed Cain for murdering his broither, but he didn't. When humans got SO sinful that they couldn't and wouldn't repent, he destroyed them in the flood - all except 8, who he spared so that the human race would continue. Those who WERE destroyed had had many warnings, and had much time to repent while Noah was building the ark. They didn't; they constantly refused.

Babies, if they are born sinners at all, are not aware of this and are not able to repent. Therefore, I believe that God shows mercy and kindness.

I could be wrong; I could get to heaven and find that God is meaner than I believe him to be - but I'm sticking to what I know of him, which is revealed in Scripture.

 

[usexpat97]

I voted that babies go to Heaven. But bear in mind that I never subscribed to the idea that babies were born sinful. I never understood how people can believe that: that babies go to Heaven, but that we are all born sinful. Something has to give.

One other thing I believe--and granted, there is very little Biblical basis to it, so it's just an opinion--but I tend to believe that if babies die, that they become like angels, never having had their loyalty to God tested. Angels and humans alike both get tested; and those who choose war with God, get cast down. Angels simply got to experience Heaven first before being tested. For babies, that test is still ahead of them. I tend to think something happens later--I don't necessarily think that babies just go to Heaven forever and ever, and never have to choose anything.

 

[shturt678]

Didn't God provide a way for infants to enter the Kingdom of God in the O.T.? Why wouldn't He do the same in the N.T.?

Just ol' old paedobaptizer Jack

 

[Jig]

We aren't spiritually one with God, obviously - at least, not until we have been reconciled through the death of Jesus. The point is that babies aren't in a position to know, or accept, that. But neither do they know, or confess, that they are sinners.

Babies are not born holy. How does their incapacities change this? It doesn't.

The whole question is; does God have mercy on those who have not known, or been able to know, him? Or does he say, "too bad, not my problem; you will spend eternity without me even though you did not know - or what'smore have a chance to know - me when you were alive."? I say he has mercy because he is merciful - and compassionate, and love.
In the same way that I believe that he judges people who had/have never heard the Gospel according to what they DID know and how they lived and behaved. Could be wrong and can't prove it - but God is merciful and loving, so that's how I believe he acts.

Is it possible to be saved without placing faith in Christ before death? If so, then this would be an exception to the Gospel.

I know. We will all sin, choose to sin and turn away from God at some point in our lives. But babies/toddlers can't make that choice - either to sin, or to repent and call out to God if they do sin.

Why does having this choice matter? Because you believe it isn't fair? Emotions aren't objective evidence.

Babies, if they are born sinners at all, are not aware of this and are not able to repent. Therefore, I believe that God shows mercy and kindness.

So, once again, this means an exception must be made to the Gospel.

but I'm sticking to what I know of him, which is revealed in Scripture.

Funny...that's what I thought I was doing.