What happens spiritually that makes us born again?

[Dave...]

Good day,

Eze 36:25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.

Regeneration is the exclusive work of God, (He) cleans, takes, puts, gives, removes, and causes. God alone is the effective and sufficient cause in our regeneration. We are effected by that work, God has a purpose and intent in doing the things he does and those can not fail to come to pass and completely fulfill his purposes.

REGENERATION is inseparable from its effects and one of the effects is faith. Without regeneration it is morally and spiritually impossible for a person to believe in Christ, but when a person is regenerated it is morally and spiritually impossible for that person not to believe. Jesus said, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me” (John 6:37), and he was referring in this case surely to the giving of the Father in the efficacious drawing of the Father mentioned in the same context (John 6:44, 65). Regeneration is the renewing of the heart and mind, and the renewed heart and mind must act according to their nature.....John Murray



"Faith and Repentance" by John Murray



In Him,

Bill

Hi bill.

Faith gives us the Holy Spirit, and thus the life. Being born again (regeneration) is the result of faith. What causes the initial faith can be debated, but the life, the faith that Jesus Authored and will finish, is Spirit Powered from regeneration that is the result of the indwelling, which is always the result of our initial faith.

I know it has become common these days in reformed circles to maintain that regeneration causes/precedes faith. I disagree and believe Scripture is clear on this matter. Notice that in the Ezekiel passage that you quoted, regeneration from the indwelling was a future promise, even still in John 7:38-39. People believed in the OT, but where not regenerate. The baptism with the Holy Spirit brought the Spiritual union through the indwelling that allowed a believer to be justified and born again. I'll leave you with a quote by another Calvinist.

“If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated. So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners.”

– C.H. Spurgeon, Sermon: The Warrant of Faith (Available online here)

 

[timothyu]

People just need to ask themselves what is it that the HS washes us of.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good day,

Hi bill.

Faith gives us the Holy Spirit, and thus the life. Being born again (regeneration) is the result of faith. What causes the initial faith can be debated, but the life, the faith that Jesus Authored and will finish, is Spirit Powered from regeneration that is the result of the indwelling, which is always the result of our initial faith.

I know it has become common these days in reformed circles to maintain that regeneration causes/precedes faith. I disagree and believe Scripture is clear on this matter. Notice that in the Ezekiel passage that you quoted, regeneration from the indwelling was a future promise, even still in John 7:38-39. People believed in the OT, but where not regenerate. The baptism with the Holy Spirit brought the Spiritual union through the indwelling that allowed a believer to be justified and born again. I'll leave you with a quote by another Calvinist.

“If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated. So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners.”

– C.H. Spurgeon, Sermon: The Warrant of Faith (Available online here)

Good day, Dave

I have been doing a considerable amount of work with CHS as of late.

I really have no issue with the quote your have provided it it's context, always best to look at the work that helps understand the question.

In his sermon - The Spurgeon Library | Faith and Regeneration

He is very clear on the Matter- "We must now pass on to show that WHEREVER IT EXISTS IT IS THE PROOF OF REGENERATION. There never was a grain of such faith as this in the world, except in a regenerate soul, and there never will be while the world standeth. It is so according to the text, and if we had no other testimony this one passage would be quite enough to prove it. "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." "Ah!" I hear thee say, poor soul, "the new birth is a great mystery; I do not understand it; I am afraid I am not a partaker in it." You are born again if you believe that Jesus is the Christ, if you are relying upon a crucified Saviour you are assuredly begotten again unto a lively hope."

The believer sees in the faith, which is simple as the movements of the needle, an indication that God is operating on the human mind, and the spiritual man discerns that there is an inner secret intimated thereby, which the carnal eye cannot decipher. To believe in Jesus is a better indicator of regeneration than anything else, and in no case did it ever mislead. Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man.

Faith is always the result of the new birth (regeneration) not the cause.... Faith can never exist in the unregenerate.

https://www.biblebb.com/files/bunyan/lastsermon.htm

Bunyan notes "Men that believe in Jesus Christ to the effectual receiving of Jesus Christ, they are born to it. He does not say they shall be born to it, but they are born to it; born of God, unto God, and the things of God, before they receive God to eternal salvation. "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Now unless he be born of God, he cannot see it. Suppose the kingdom of God be what it will, he cannot see it before he be begotten of God; suppose it be the Gospel, he cannot see it before he be brought into a state of regeneration; believing is the consequence of the new birth, "not of blood, nor of the will of man, but of God."

John Gill - Of Regeneration | Monergism



Regeneration is signified by "Christ being formed in the heart", #Ga 4:19 his image is stamped in regeneration; not the image of the first Adam, but of the second Adam; for the new man is after the image of him who has anew created it, which is the image of Christ; to be conformed to which God's elect are predestinated, and which takes place in regeneration, #Ro 8:29 Col 3:10. The graces of Christ, as faith, and hope, and love, are wrought in the hearts of regenerate persons, and soon appear there; yea, Christ himself lives in them; "Not I", says the apostle, "but Christ lives in me"; he dwells by faith there; Christ, and the believer, mutually dwell in each other.



In Him

Bill

 

[bling]

A public testimony. An outward expression physically that symbolizes a spiritual reality inwardly that has already taken place the moment we first believe. That inward reality was not available for believers until after the cross. Some were due that Promise, some were predestined to believe the Gospel as True OT believers, and only then receive the promise. Thus we see that play out in Acts.

I do not think we only Christian water baptize to be just a "a public testimony", but it can be a good witness and a visual sermon. Witnessing someone turning control of themselves over to another person (the person doing the baptism), reminds us of what we did with God, the going down under the water reminds us of our being cleansed from sin and burying our old self, being lifted up letting the water wash down over them should remind us our sins flowing away and finally falling into the arms of other believers restores our feelings of being in a new and greater family. God has provided a way for us to physically experience what is Spiritually happening to us.

 

[Dave...]

Good day,

Good day, Dave

I have been doing a considerable amount of work with CHS as of late.

I really have no issue with the quote your have provided it it's context, always best to look at the work that helps understand the question.

In his sermon - The Spurgeon Library | Faith and Regeneration

He is very clear on the Matter- "We must now pass on to show that WHEREVER IT EXISTS IT IS THE PROOF OF REGENERATION. There never was a grain of such faith as this in the world, except in a regenerate soul, and there never will be while the world standeth. It is so according to the text, and if we had no other testimony this one passage would be quite enough to prove it. "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." "Ah!" I hear thee say, poor soul, "the new birth is a great mystery; I do not understand it; I am afraid I am not a partaker in it." You are born again if you believe that Jesus is the Christ, if you are relying upon a crucified Saviour you are assuredly begotten again unto a lively hope."

The believer sees in the faith, which is simple as the movements of the needle, an indication that God is operating on the human mind, and the spiritual man discerns that there is an inner secret intimated thereby, which the carnal eye cannot decipher. To believe in Jesus is a better indicator of regeneration than anything else, and in no case did it ever mislead. Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man.

Faith is always the result of the new birth (regeneration) not the cause.... Faith can never exist in the unregenerate.

https://www.biblebb.com/files/bunyan/lastsermon.htm

Bunyan notes "Men that believe in Jesus Christ to the effectual receiving of Jesus Christ, they are born to it. He does not say they shall be born to it, but they are born to it; born of God, unto God, and the things of God, before they receive God to eternal salvation. "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Now unless he be born of God, he cannot see it. Suppose the kingdom of God be what it will, he cannot see it before he be begotten of God; suppose it be the Gospel, he cannot see it before he be brought into a state of regeneration; believing is the consequence of the new birth, "not of blood, nor of the will of man, but of God."

John Gill - Of Regeneration | Monergism



Regeneration is signified by "Christ being formed in the heart", #Ga 4:19 his image is stamped in regeneration; not the image of the first Adam, but of the second Adam; for the new man is after the image of him who has anew created it, which is the image of Christ; to be conformed to which God's elect are predestinated, and which takes place in regeneration, #Ro 8:29 Col 3:10. The graces of Christ, as faith, and hope, and love, are wrought in the hearts of regenerate persons, and soon appear there; yea, Christ himself lives in them; "Not I", says the apostle, "but Christ lives in me"; he dwells by faith there; Christ, and the believer, mutually dwell in each other.



In Him

Bill

Hey Bill

It's been busy, sorry for the delay.

Bill, I believe that you're reading more into what Spurgeon is said than what he is meant. I could be wrong, but I don't think that he meant that the way that you're taking it. One reason is the quote that I provided. That would be a direct contradiction. Though, people do change their minds. We all have our learning curves on record stored on the internet for all to see with some of the same discrepancies. But consider that the verse he's quoting is also misunderstood and taken way beyond the text by many, even still today. I think it's safe to say that Spurgeon meant what he said, he just didn't mean it in the way that you're taking it. I'll explain....

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

This passage is often quoted as proof that one must be born again to believe. I think that mistranslation was pointed out very eloquently by Dr. Sam Storms. I believe that he is one of the consensus who believes that the new birth precedes faith. I thank him for his honesty.


Dr. Storms wrote:

"John says in 5:1 that whoever is presently believing in Christ has in the past been born or begotten of God. I.e., a present action of believing is evidence of a past experience of begetting. Is John then saying that new birth or regeneration always precedes and causes saving faith in Christ? Although I believe regeneration (new birth) does precede and cause faith, I do not believe that is John’s point here.

When one examines these texts where the terminology of regeneration is used, one finds that John is concerned with describing the consequences or fruit of the new birth:

Question: “How may I know that regeneration has occurred? How may I know if someone has been born again?”

Answer: “That person will not practice sin (3:9; 5:18). That person will practice righteousness (2:29). That person will love the brethren (4:7). That person will believe in Christ (5:1). And that person will overcome the world (5:4).”

John’s point is simply that these activities are the evidence of the new birth and hence of salvation. Their absence is the evidence that regeneration has not taken place. He makes this point, not because he wants to demonstrate the cause/effect relationship between regeneration and faith, but because he wants to provide the church with tests by which to discern between true and spurious “believers.”" – Dr. Sam Storms
-------------

The same John in his Gospels wrote this as the purpose of his Gospel. John 20:31 (so they may believe)

"but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

And later, John wrote this as the purpose of his Epistle, 1 John 5:13 ( to believers, so that they may know they are saved)

" These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

This verse, 1 John 5:1, if we do not go beyond the text, is really not in conflict with those who believe that being born again is the result of faith. It IS going beyond the text to use it as a proof text to, as Dr. Sam Storms wrote, "demonstrate the cause/effect relationship between regeneration and faith"

It's really simple. If you believe, you have been born again. Why? Because the initial result of believing is to be born again. If you are presently believing then you have previously been born again when that faith started.

The quote above by DR. Sam Storms was taken from this link

1 John 5:1 Does Not Teach Pre-Faith Regeneration

In an earlier post <here> we presented many passages which clearly indicate the ordo salutis (the order of salvation), as expressed by the apostle John when he wrote, “I have written th…

soteriology101.com

I think Spurgeon is saying the same thing. He's just confirming faith as an evidence of an existing regeneration and not trying to prove a cause/effect relationship.

1 John 5:1, John 1:12-13, and John 3:3, none of these actually say what is claimed by todays reformed believers. Yet they build a complete theology based on their definition of mainly these three verses and redefine the Bible with it. These are assumptions, built on assumptions. And when you look to find the foundation of what all these assumptions are built on, there is only more assumptions. Added to that, there is a complete disregard for the nature of the relationship between man and the Holy Spirit from the OT, to the NT. The promises made. The transition at the birth of the Church when these promises began to be realized. These are all ignored.

God is responsible for our changed heart, the moment our life begins in Him. I think that Scripture is clear that the life in question begins when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That's a problem if the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is received as a result of faith (Galatians 3:2-3). So what motivates that faith? Is it the flesh? Is it God, by other means? To solve that problem, there are those who have the Holy Spirit entering a believer before faith, thus making that life begin before faith. It's an easy fix, but that idea is nowhere found in Scripture and is in fact hostel to Scripture. This is what Spurgeon was criticizing in the quote that I supplied earlier.

Also, the passage that you quoted Romans 8:29, I started a thread on that. In short, it's speaking of OT true believers, the sheep, given to the Son by the Father, Whom He shall not lose one of them, already declared righteous, these were already known by the Father and predestined to be conformed to Christlikeness (NT faith). If you're interested, here's a link.

"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29"

"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29" You may ask why this is in the dispensationalism forum. It's because it has everything to do with the transition from the old Testament to the New Testament. I copied this out of a book that I once owned called "The Five Points of Calvinism, Defined...

www.christianforums.com

Dave

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT


This thread had a small clean up. Let's stay respectful.​

 

[BBAS 64]

Hey Bill

It's been busy, sorry for the delay.

Bill, I believe that you're reading more into what Spurgeon is said than what he is meant. I could be wrong, but I don't think that he meant that the way that you're taking it. One reason is the quote that I provided. That would be a direct contradiction. Though, people do change their minds. We all have our learning curves on record stored on the internet for all to see with some of the same discrepancies. But consider that the verse he's quoting is also misunderstood and taken way beyond the text by many, even still today. I think it's safe to say that Spurgeon meant what he said, he just didn't mean it in the way that you're taking it. I'll explain....

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

This passage is often quoted as proof that one must be born again to believe. I think that mistranslation was pointed out very eloquently by Dr. Sam Storms. I believe that he is one of the consensus who believes that the new birth precedes faith. I thank him for his honesty.


Dr. Storms wrote:

"John says in 5:1 that whoever is presently believing in Christ has in the past been born or begotten of God. I.e., a present action of believing is evidence of a past experience of begetting. Is John then saying that new birth or regeneration always precedes and causes saving faith in Christ? Although I believe regeneration (new birth) does precede and cause faith, I do not believe that is John’s point here.

When one examines these texts where the terminology of regeneration is used, one finds that John is concerned with describing the consequences or fruit of the new birth:

Question: “How may I know that regeneration has occurred? How may I know if someone has been born again?”

Answer: “That person will not practice sin (3:9; 5:18). That person will practice righteousness (2:29). That person will love the brethren (4:7). That person will believe in Christ (5:1). And that person will overcome the world (5:4).”

John’s point is simply that these activities are the evidence of the new birth and hence of salvation. Their absence is the evidence that regeneration has not taken place. He makes this point, not because he wants to demonstrate the cause/effect relationship between regeneration and faith, but because he wants to provide the church with tests by which to discern between true and spurious “believers.”" – Dr. Sam Storms
-------------

The same John in his Gospels wrote this as the purpose of his Gospel. John 20:31 (so they may believe)

"but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

And later, John wrote this as the purpose of his Epistle, 1 John 5:13 ( to believers, so that they may know they are saved)

" These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

This verse, 1 John 5:1, if we do not go beyond the text, is really not in conflict with those who believe that being born again is the result of faith. It IS going beyond the text to use it as a proof text to, as Dr. Sam Storms wrote, "demonstrate the cause/effect relationship between regeneration and faith"

It's really simple. If you believe, you have been born again. Why? Because the initial result of believing is to be born again. If you are presently believing then you have previously been born again when that faith started.

The quote above by DR. Sam Storms was taken from this link

1 John 5:1 Does Not Teach Pre-Faith Regeneration

In an earlier post <here> we presented many passages which clearly indicate the ordo salutis (the order of salvation), as expressed by the apostle John when he wrote, “I have written th…

soteriology101.com

I think Spurgeon is saying the same thing. He's just confirming faith as an evidence of an existing regeneration and not trying to prove a cause/effect relationship.

1 John 5:1, John 1:12-13, and John 3:3, none of these actually say what is claimed by todays reformed believers. Yet they build a complete theology based on their definition of mainly these three verses and redefine the Bible with it. These are assumptions, built on assumptions. And when you look to find the foundation of what all these assumptions are built on, there is only more assumptions. Added to that, there is a complete disregard for the nature of the relationship between man and the Holy Spirit from the OT, to the NT. The promises made. The transition at the birth of the Church when these promises began to be realized. These are all ignored.

God is responsible for our changed heart, the moment our life begins in Him. I think that Scripture is clear that the life in question begins when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That's a problem if the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is received as a result of faith (Galatians 3:2-3). So what motivates that faith? Is it the flesh? Is it God, by other means? To solve that problem, there are those who have the Holy Spirit entering a believer before faith, thus making that life begin before faith. It's an easy fix, but that idea is nowhere found in Scripture and is in fact hostel to Scripture. This is what Spurgeon was criticizing in the quote that I supplied earlier.

Also, the passage that you quoted Romans 8:29, I started a thread on that. In short, it's speaking of OT true believers, the sheep, given to the Son by the Father, Whom He shall not lose one of them, already declared righteous, these were already known by the Father and predestined to be conformed to Christlikeness (NT faith). If you're interested, here's a link.

"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29"

"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29" You may ask why this is in the dispensationalism forum. It's because it has everything to do with the transition from the old Testament to the New Testament. I copied this out of a book that I once owned called "The Five Points of Calvinism, Defined...

www.christianforums.com

Dave

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Good day, Dave

No issues...

I will stick with the clear wording of CHS here "Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate"


Faith is the result of the new birth and can never exist except in the regenerate.

Therefore the unregenerate can never have faith, they are lacking the prerequisite cause (regeneration) that would enable the direct resultant faith.

We will just have to disagree may be if I ever get the chance to speak with Phillip Johnson I will ask the question.

While I do understand the nuance by Sam Storm and other like DA Carson there is no question (in my mind) where CHS came down on the issue as it applies to 1 JN 1:5.


Thank you for the discussion!

In Him

Bill

 

[Soyeong]

What are the spiritual mechanics of being born again?

I'll give my thoughts on this matter and we'll go from there. Just for the record, if I'm speaking of baptism, it's the spiritual baptism that I'm speaking of unless otherwise noted. I'll tell you if I mean water baptism.

If you ask someone what being born is, they're likely to respond with something like the wind blows where it wills, all from John 3, etc. But I think the Bible does give us some insight and that insight helps tremendously in interpreting Scripture over all.

When we are placed into/immersed/baptized into Christ, we receive everything at once, all the ingredients to be saved. Thus we are complete "in Him" and lacking nothing (Col. 2:10-14). This is the Church, the Body, that the placing into, or the baptism with the Holy Spirit spiritually unites us with. By receiving the indwelling as a result of our faith, we are placed into Christ, becoming one with Him. Setting aside the legality of our salvation, that is, being saved/delivered from the penalty of sin, the focus in this thread will mainly be in our being saved/delivered from the power of sin. This is the practical side of being saved and is called being born again, which not only frees us from the power of sin, but also allows us to begin to be conformed to Christ likeness (Gal. 3:2-3).

Being born again is the result of being placed into Christ.

When the Bible speaks of our being raised up with Him, or raised up in Christ, it's speaking of our being born again. When it speaks of being crucified with Christ, dying with Him, that is the necessary death that must precede being raised up with Him. When we are placed into/immersed/baptized into Christ, we're also placed into/immersed/baptized into His death, and raised up with Him, thus we are born again.

These are verses that I believe are speaking of being born again, though they do not use the typical language. These are all speking of the Spirit baptism, known as the baptism with the Holy Spirit by Jesus.

Romans 6:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Col. 2:10-14 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Gal. 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Gal. 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit (baptism with the Holy Spirit) by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? ---- *(added by me)*

26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized (with the Holy Spirit) into Christ have put on Christ. ---- *(added by me)*

Ephesians 2:5-6 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Being born again is simultaneous to being placed into Christ, also being placed into Jesus' death and raised up with Him.

The Bible tells us that we are saved/delivered through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe this is saved/delivered both judicially and being born again. But when the Bible speaks of being 'raised up with Him', like Ephesians 2:6, I believe that it's specifically speaking of our being born again.

Do you recognize this Scripture of speaking of being born again? Is this a metaphor, or does this really happen spiritually when we receive the Holy Spirit.

Dave

A child of someone is a person who is in their likeness through embodying their character traits such as with John 8:39 saying that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doers of the same works as him, which is also why 1 John 2:6 says that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked. The character traits of God are the fruits of the Spirit. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory at the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how walk in obedience to God’s law, so that is wit means for Jesus to be the Son of God and what it means for us to be children of God when we are partaking in the divine nature through following his example. This is why those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God are not children of God (1 John 3:4-10) and why Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God (Romans 8:4-14). Sin is what is contrary to God’s character traits and sin is the transgression of the Law of God because it was graciously given to treatise how to be a doer of His character traits, so Jesus graciously teaching teaching us to be a doer of God’s character traits in obedience to the Law of God is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

 

[Dave...]

@BBAS 64 @Soyeong

I'll need to get back when I get more time. Internet was down all day. There's power outages too. I'll give you something to ponder though. There is a distinction between the initial faith and the Spirit powered faith that we call life. I think it's a mistake to see those both as being Spirit powered from being born again. They could both be Spirit powered, but both are not the result of being born again. Only after receiving the indwelling could a person be born again. That indwelling, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit, is always the result of faith. Perhaps, and I don't know to say for sure, Spurgeon recognized this distinction. I'm just allowing for the possibility. In other words, the faith (ongoing 1 John 5:1) that we call life is always the result of the indwelling Gal. 3:2-3), which is always the result of faith (initial).

Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Believe and be saved. That's the Gospel message. One cannot be saved without the indwelling Spirit of God (Romans 8:9-11).

These in John believed before the cross (still OT), and did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This passage parallels Ezekiel 36:26-27 and is still a future promise.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

Good day, Dave

No issues...

I will stick with the clear wording of CHS here "Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate"


Faith is the result of the new birth and can never exist except in the regenerate.

Therefore the unregenerate can never have faith, they are lacking the prerequisite cause (regeneration) that would enable the direct resultant faith.

We will just have to disagree may be if I ever get the chance to speak with Phillip Johnson I will ask the question.

While I do understand the nuance by Sam Storm and other like DA Carson there is no question (in my mind) where CHS came down on the issue as it applies to 1 JN 1:5.


Thank you for the discussion!

In Him

Bill

Hey BBAS

(Note: I tried to clean up my post a little from yesterday. Sorry, my dyslexia, plus lots of coffee can make my posts hard to read.)

All I can say regarding Spurgeon is that there appears to be a contradiction in his thinking. When looking at the quote that I provided, it's hard for me to see any other way to to interpret it. I'm looking into it, but I would not hang my hat on any one theologian anyways. I'm thankful for them, and find much of their studies helpful. But in the end, I must rely on my own understanding of Scripture.

I used to read some things from Phil Johnson, but I can't remember exactly what. I think it was through MacArthur, but I'm not sure. It was a long time ago. I may have even owned a book by Phil at one time, but again, I don't remember. If I had to guess, was he quoted by John in Johns sermons, I'm sure. I read most of Johns sermons in those days.

As far as 1 John 5:1 is concerned. It just means that it's impossible to currently believe and not be born again, simply because the first thing that happens when one believes in the indwelling, and as a result, the new birth. I stand on my original assessment that it doesn't mean cause and effect. I don't see any reason to go beyond the simple reading in that passage.

"Therefore the unregenerate can never have faith, they are lacking the prerequisite cause (regeneration) that would enable the direct resultant faith."

Most of the Scripture used to defend the idea of regeneration before initial faith is from the idea of total depravity. I believe that mans depravity is in the ability of the person to please God from the flesh. To legally do something good by righteous standards. Not in his desire to be saved. The initial faith, after all is only a desire. (Romans 7:18). I believe that it's the ongoing faith that Jesus Authors and perfects. That's the indwelling (Galatians 3:2-3), born again powered life called faith in Hebrews 12:2 (Author/Prince, same word used in Acts 3:15 to describe life). In short, faith is another way of saying life in that passage. But I make a distinction between that and the initial faith before the indwelling.

In my opinion, the idea that a person must be born again before they can come to faith is no where found in Scripture. I know that pits me against just about everybody these days. But, let God be true and every man a liar, right? In fact, Regeneration before faith is extremely hostile to Scripture.

Some people see the ability to believe as either from being born again or the flesh, with no other options. I think that our initial faith cannot be result of being born again, because being born again is the result of the indwelling, which is the result of that initial faith. The faith that is Spirit powered and called life comes as a result of the initial faith.

I also think that there are other options for our initial faith that are Spirit powered. After all, OT believers believed, and could not be born again, since they could not be indwelt until Jesus was lifted up. In my opinion, that's where the answer may be. I believe that Scripture allows for that initial faith to be powered from the Holy Spirit, just not the indwelling, which is necessary for one to be born again. That promise of the indwelling was fulfilled and began at Pentecost. In the OT, the Spirit came upon people, but mostly just to do certain tasks, and it seems that people believed without the holy spirit upon them.

The presence of God had Power. In the Tabernacle, the Temple, the Ark of the Covenant, even in God incarnate, Jesus, there was power. That power may allow the ability to believe. also, there is the power from the the Word itself, as Jesus is the Word. That's one way for God to enter into a unbeliever without the blood of Christ to cleanse that Temple, that's us. In the NT, it could be the presence of God in believers. I believe that's why Jesus said that He would draw all people to Himself after He is lifted up. Because in the NT, Pentecost and forward, every believer takes that OT presence of God and it's power (Acts 1:8) with them in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when they evangelize, which OT believers did not have.

There are many possibilities, and I'm not not eliminating the flesh. Total depravity goes way beyond Scripture to save the system with regards to mans depravity. Every proof text of total depravity, if you look at the context, shows people who can still believe. Or is speaking of mans ability to do good by righteous standards, but is not speaking of desire. I plan on starting a thread on total depravity and confronting some of those things. I'll need to get through these currently running.

Dave