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Zayit said:But Kariates aren't allowed to answer in here are they? This would have to be asked in the Jewish debate forum if I understand the rules correctly.
Todah vis,visionary said:I had to highlight the major points I see in what Talmidim wrote to help get it ingrained into the mind and heart.
Will some one rep this man....That was excellent. I can't.
Shalom koilias,koilias said:Good news folks!
HaShem gave us his Oral Torah. Yeshua's Torah.
...Forget Flusser, forget Pharisees, forget Talmud, forget (gasp!) even koilias and his hyper-Rabbinic reading of Paul!....
Yeshua himself said it:
"It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man!" (Mattityahu 15:11)
And note Rabbinu says "comes out of the mouth", not the other cavity at the end of the digestive tract.
Whoo Hoo!!! Gives me chills!visionary said:I think while God calls it His Wrath, He is still the same when the plagues fall. Taking the blame, and letting us suffer the consequences for sin. It is the same as when one is in His presence, sin burns up. It is not that He wants to see the sinner burn up but when sin is in the sinner, it burns and thus the sinner gets burned too. If we have Him cleanse us of our sins, then we can be in the presence of God. For without His covering, we would not be able to stand in the presence of such Holiness as His.
I agree with what you are saying Talmidim. Unfortunately, some might inspect their hearts and think they are pure indeed, such is the delusion of their own self-righteousness. They then will think it is incumbent to follow HaShem's command to the letter. If HaShem commanded we should stone, who are we to disagree with Him? Such is the level of simplicity that some ant-Oral Torah folks approach the text...You see what I am getting at?talmidim said:So the question remains, when it comes to stoning, is your heart filled with the love that He has shown? Do you follow His command as He taught by word and deed?
Wags said:I agree with Henaynei, scripture is clear that ignorance is not bliss.
talmidim said:Interesting... Especially if it was those scriptures He was writing in the sand before He spoke! I will have to research this a little! I tippah my kippah!
Zayit said:I belive he was writing in the dust the names of the accusers, starting with the eldest ( who should have had more wisdom?) to the youngest. Then when he returned he started putting next to each name the sins they had commited, from the eldest to the youngest.
10 "'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, that is, with the wife of a fellow countryman, both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. Lev20
That is the law and this is also part of HaShems instructions:
2 In order to obey the mitzvot of ADONAI your God which I am giving you, do not add to what I am saying, and do not subtract from it. Deut 4:2
This also brings to mind as to why King Daavid was not stoned?HaShem judged him.
Everything I followed and agreed with.....except.....Yeshua revealing sin...I have a hard time with the concept of Yeshua exposing sinners in public.Zayit said:But this is my understanding.
I belive he was writing in the dust the names of the accusers, starting with the eldest ( who should have had more wisdom?) to the youngest. Then when he returned he started putting next to each name the sins they had commited, from the eldest to the youngest.
Calling someone a Satan isnt' exactly not exposing sin is it? And this was with his own Talmidim, Kefa. His whole ministry was bringing sinners to repentance. When he healed he told them, 'your sins are forgiven'.I have a hard time with the concept of Yeshua exposing sinners in public.
Yes, but they weren't even using the true interpretation of the law, but their own.koilias said:I like this interpretation a lot!
So we are to stone today?? C'mon people tell me flat out!
No, I never said that, we are to show mercy as he did.
For which sin? Adultery (where does it say this?) or murder?
3 David made inquiries about the woman and was told that she was Bat-Sheva the daughter of Eli'am, the wife of Uriyah the Hitti. 4 David sent messengers to get her, and she came to him, and he went to bed with her (for she had been purified from her uncleanness). Then she returned to her house. 5 The woman conceived; and she sent a message to David, "I am pregnant." 2sam 11
You aren't contending that he didn't commit adultry are you?
Actually, Zayit, I believe you're more on the correct path to the situation with "judge not lest you be judged". They brought the woman to trap Yeshua (where are their real motives?) and thus making sport of a real human life. What does this say about their hearts? They were about to be convicted of a form of sin equally punishable by death. If this is their true motive then they are about to murder her. Believe me, there was a real reason they got outta there quick. Yeshua made his point subtly but with oh so much bite.
Yeah... I can see that...Zayit said:Calling someone a Satan isnt' exactly not exposing sin is it? And this was with his own Talmidim, Kefa. His whole ministry was bringing sinners to repentance. When he healed he told them, 'your sins are forgiven'.
But maybe it was more like this?
11 Next I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
HaShem has already written a book or books in which everything about everyone is recorded, Moshe knew this, and offered up his place in the book of life in exchange for the lives of Israel for their sins.
33 ADONAI answered Moshe, "Those who have sinned against me are the ones I will blot out of my book. Deut
King David also knew of this book that contains all our sins:
7 Sprinkle me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow. 8 Let me hear the sound of joy and gladness, so that the bones you crushed can rejoice. 9 Turn away your face from my sins, and blot out all my crimes. Ps 51
So could he have been showing once again his authority? To forgive sins or to blot someones name out from the book of life?
He committed adultery in more ways than one. But I want you to specify which is the worse sin.Zayit said:3 David made inquiries about the woman and was told that she was Bat-Sheva the daughter of Eli'am, the wife of Uriyah the Hitti. 4 David sent messengers to get her, and she came to him, and he went to bed with her (for she had been purified from her uncleanness). Then she returned to her house. 5 The woman conceived; and she sent a message to David, "I am pregnant." 2sam 11
You aren't contending that he didn't commit adultry are you?
No...I don't believe the halakha is the issue to them. They want to place Yeshua with the option of violating Torah vs. violating Roman Law (it is illegal for Jews to have capital punishment). It is a blatant attempt to either discredit him publicly or get him in trouble with the Romans. Yeshua did not bite.Yes, but they weren't even using the true interpretation of the law, but their own.
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