What happened to stoning? (for example)

I once shared a sandwich with a Muslim friend of mine in Jerusalem...He ate it. When he was munching he thought to ask me if the meat was from a Christian or a Muslim shop. I replied probably a Christian shop, since my school probably bought the meat from the Christians. I assured him it was not pork, but to him the possibility was that it just might be, since it came from a Christian shop. Immediately he began gagging and spitting it out, making quite a show of it. (I checked with my Christian school later and they said they never purchased pork...since it is too expensive in Israel).

While he meant no harm, I was struck by the sheer humiliation this brought on me among his friends. I then understood some of the things Paul must have been dealing with in reaching out to gentiles. In his mind, their dignity as fellow human beings was worth much more to him than making a pious fool of himself about such things as meat. It is much, much better just to say that you are a vegetarian, rather than even risk the offense of asking where the meat came from...Even if the gentiles bought the meat from Jews, just asking this question risks shaming them.

koilias said:

Quite possibly. But just to be clear, even if you ate shrimp and pork without your knowledge, no sin is accorded to you in Rabbinic Judaism. Let me stress, its in breaking the commandment itself where the sin lies. All foods are considered "clean" by Paul and his Pharisaic tradition.

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koilias, I have to take strong exception to this statement

HaShem even gave us a commandment as what to do when we had sinned without our knowledge, either out of ignorance that such a command existed or because we were unaware that something we did (or ate) violated a law we were aware of:

Va'yikra/Leviticus 5:14-19
14 The L-rd spoke to Moses, saying: 15 When any of you commit a trespass and sin unintentionally in any of the holy things of the Lord, you shall bring, as your guilt offering to the L-rd, a ram without blemish from the flock, convertible into silver by the sanctuary shekel; it is a guilt offering. 16 And you shall make restitution for the holy thing in which you were remiss, and shall add one-fifth to it and give it to the priest. The priest shall make atonement on your behalf with the ram of the guilt offering, and you shall be forgiven. 17 If any of you sin without knowing it, doing any of the things that by the L-rd's commandments ought not to be done, you have incurred guilt, and are subject to punishment. 18 You shall bring to the priest a ram without blemish from the flock, or the equivalent, as a guilt offering; and the priest shall make atonement on your behalf for the error that you committed unintentionally, and you shall be forgiven. 19 It is a guilt offering; you have incurred guilt before the L-rd.

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As most here are aware, I am strongly in the pro-Rabbinic camp, the pro-Talmud camp - however, if you have been around long enough you also know that I am not slow to reject a rabbinic ruling that clearly contridicts HaShem's commands. IF the rabbis truly have ruled as Koilias states above then I strongly disagree with them and stand beside HaShem's commandment.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

MyLittleWonders said:

Can we go back ever so briefly to the Romans 14 passage (though the death penalty is interesting too ). My understanding is that Paul is speaking of clean food here to begin with - being a Messianic Jew, he would only have refered to something kosher as clean - that pork, shellfish, etc, wasn't even considered food, so it wouldn't ever come into a conversation about food. I thought he was responding to food that is "clean" in that it's kosher, but that's been possibly offered to an idol, as was quite common. So, if you are eating food (which would have only been kosher to begin with) then the problem would arise between Jew/Messianic and pagan, because the J/MJ would have to question if the food was first offered as a sacrifice to a pagan god. Paul is instructing them that the food is clean regardless of who said what over it while it was slaughtered/prepared. As long as it was food as defined by kosher law, then it was food okay to eat. At least that's what I think ...

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You are correct - "food" to Paul meant that which was kosher.

I am a third generation vegetarian, I litteraly become ill if I ingest anything that used to have a face. To me flesh is not "food". So although it is not necessarily nice to have to ask, I usually have to ask what is in food. Some members of our former "messianic" congregation thought it was hillarious to try to convinvce me something was vegetarian at oneg when it wasn't. For me not eating it was about my health, for dh to say that he was also a veggie was for politeness because there were a few that believed ALL foods were clean and would bring unclean flesh to potlucks on purpose. (This really shocked me, because even the Reform & Reconstructionist congregations near us always designated their potlucks as "dairy" so that they would not offend anyone." And they were a very liberal bunch!).

I agree with Henaynei, scripture is clear that ignorance is not bliss.

I also think ignorance is not bliss. I find the passage in genesis 20, between Abimelech and G-d very interesting in this context.

3But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, “Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married.” qvb://0/anchor/54Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a nation, even though blameless? qvb://0/anchor/65“Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this.” qvb://0/anchor/76Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.

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In other words, according to G-d, Abimelech would have sinned by consumating his marriage to Sarah even though he didn't know she was already Abraham's wife.

Henaynei & Wags I agree. A Brother in Yeshua that I know told me when he was growing up his father all ways told him when they sat down to ear, “ this is “food” what the Gentiles eat is not “food”. But the toilet brush of the world.
I realize it’s the way we see the word “Food”,
Shalom

Heh, looks like I'll have to present my Paul the first century Pharisee case. Ok. Let me get out my David Flusser...

Sorry folks, all food (and that includes nonKosher) is not inherently evil, unclean, sinful...The disease is not in the food. It is in our breaking of the commandment were the sin lies. This is what Rabbinic Judaism teaches.

We'll have to break out the Talmud! Let me gather my sources...

Cheers,

Eric

How about what the Torah teaches?

We just did the parasha a few weeks back on Man. The children were told, to only gather for today what you will eat today, do not save any, for it will rot. They didn't listen and some got to see the disease, the sickness in the man the next day as they opened the pot and saw it crawling with worms and maggots. To me these represent death. Sure it was about obedience in not saving it, but also the L-RD warned them why, and they had to see for themselves.

Some of that food that Paul had a concern over may also not have been kashered, thus retaining the blood in it and we know that life and death is in the blood.

I am a third generation vegetarian, I litteraly become ill if I ingest anything that used to have a face. To me flesh is not "food".

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Hey, another veggie! My wife and I have been vegetarians for a few years. When I became involved in the Messianic movement it was pretty easy for me to eat Kosher, needless to say.

Shalom all!

OK, here's my take on things. Make of it what you will.

In the formation of a government for a stiffnecked and rebelious people, the "law" had to be laid down to keep them seperate and apart. In the great spiritual battle between the prince of darkness and the prince of Light, there were also "legal" things (in the court of the Father) that had to be accomplished in order to keep the blood line of the messiah unpolluted until he came. It was a son of a woman that had been prophecied in the garden, not a decendant of the bloodline of fallen angels. The punishment of stoning for instance, was not the first choice of the Father. It was the only choice that man (and the evil one) allowed Him, in order to keep His integrity and still redeem man.

Following the teachings of the Master carefully, I got the distinct impression that the emphasis had shifted from the enforcement of the law on others to our enforcement upon ourselves. For those of you that think otherwise, I would remind you that things got harder, not easier. Yeshua did not punish His talmidim for transgressions of the mitzvahs, He taught them the reason for them and LET THEM CHOOSE! I would remind you of the crowd that left Him after His "hard sayings".

Stern measures had to be taken back when Torah was given. After the arrival of the Messiah, the renewed covenant could be held to a different standard. That is, the original standard of unmerited favor the the Father has shown from the begining. It is the one that He would have us adopt. Love Him. Love each other. It was the legalistic actions of "the one that has no love save for himself" that threw a monkey wrench into the works.

I eat kosher because I am grateful for that gift of knowledge from Him. I don't stone people that miss the mark, because all authority and power has been given to my Master. I have NOW been instructed to pray for them all and to be a witness to Him. I cannot presume to judge others nowdays as they had been judged then. We have a new King. He judges now, not me. I think that seperating His chosen from evil is enough for now. I have all faith that He will redeem His chosen in His own time and in the way He has spoken through His Prophets, and that will be sooner than we think... Be ready by keeping His Torah as He clarified it, by keeping it in your heart. Judge yourself by it, not others.

b'Shalom

When Israel was taken captive under Nebuchadnezzar the civil laws of Israel couldn't exactly supercede Babylonian law....nor did they have a Temple for the levitical ordinances. Even this far back (660 BCE?) Torah was no longer applicable in all areas.

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I believe the date for the destruction of the First Temple was 586 BCE.

S

EXCELLENT POST Talmidim, you live up to your name!

If we are going to discuss kosher v non-kosher food...then perhaps a whole new thread would be the best option.

Let me say first off I think if we sin we are all subject to death. If we go on rejecting God's laws cursing parents whatever we are subject to death. Then we are subject to the second death if we refuse to turn from our ways. Woman's head coverings are our hair. We shouldn't be looking manly. In Paul's times woman prostitutes shaved their heads so women weren't supposed to be doing this. We can apply it to our time on us looking feminine and not like others in this world.
The law as G-d wanted it to be followed had nothing to do with the letter as the Pharisees laid it down with all the regulations that man could not keep up with. Jesus said to the people who ever is without sin cast the first stone. No one could but him and he said go and sin no more and forgave the woman for her sin. The letter of the law is a lot different than following Human regulations that get heaped up on people. Everything is supposed to be a joy not suppressing us.
You can explain that it is to be kept freely the way G-d wants the way Christ kept it remember he healed on the Sabbath a bad offense with the Pharisees. But he didn't really break any commandment. The key is to not get tied up with the HUMAN legalism. Take it to our lord. To be honest I don't follow the Jewish way I follow the Lords way. The Jewish regulations are human and our just as bad as Christians not following G-ds requests.
Jen

talmidim said:

Shalom all!

OK, here's my take on things. Make of it what you will.

In the formation of a government for a stiffnecked and rebelious people, the "law" had to be laid down to keep them seperate and apart. In the great spiritual battle between the prince of darkness and the prince of Light, there were also "legal" things (in the court of the Father) that had to be accomplished in order to keep the blood line of the messiah unpolluted until he came. It was a son of a woman that had been prophecied in the garden, not a decendant of the bloodline of fallen angels. The punishment of stoning for instance, was not the first choice of the Father. It was the only choice that man (and the evil one) allowed Him, in order to keep His integrity and still redeem man.

Following the teachings of the Master carefully, I got the distinct impression that the emphasis had shifted from the enforcement of the law on others to our enforcement upon ourselves. For those of you that think otherwise, I would remind you that things got harder, not easier. Yeshua did not punish His talmidim for transgressions of the mitzvahs, He taught them the reason for them and LET THEM CHOOSE! I would remind you of the crowd that left Him after His "hard sayings".

Stern measures had to be taken back when Torah was given. After the arrival of the Messiah, the renewed covenant could be held to a different standard. That is, the original standard of unmerited favor the the Father has shown from the begining. It is the one that He would have us adopt. Love Him. Love each other. It was the legalistic actions of "the one that has no love save for himself" that threw a monkey wrench into the works.

I eat kosher because I am grateful for that gift of knowledge from Him. I don't stone people that miss the mark, because all authority and power has been given to my Master. I have NOW been instructed to pray for them all and to be a witness to Him. I cannot presume to judge others nowdays as they had been judged then. We have a new King. He judges now, not me. I think that seperating His chosen from evil is enough for now. I have all faith that He will redeem His chosen in His own time and in the way He has spoken through His Prophets, and that will be sooner than we think... Be ready by keeping His Torah as He clarified it, by keeping it in your heart. Judge yourself by it, not others.

b'Shalom

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I had to highlight the major points I see in what Talmidim wrote to help get it ingrained into the mind and heart.

Will some one rep this man....That was excellent. I can't.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to talmidim again.

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Zayit said:

How about what the Torah teaches?

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The written or the oral???

Just kidding Zayit...they are one and the same. Of course, I will probably get bonked by somebody here....

I'll let someone else have a go at ya.

Henaynei said:

koilias, I have to take strong exception to this statement

... IF the rabbis truly have ruled as Koilias states above then I strongly disagree with them and stand beside HaShem's commandment.

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Good news folks!

HaShem gave us his Oral Torah. Yeshua's Torah.

...Forget Flusser, forget Pharisees, forget Talmud, forget (gasp!) even koilias and his hyper-Rabbinic reading of Paul!....

Yeshua himself said it:

"It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man!" (Mattityahu 15:11)

And note Rabbinu says "comes out of the mouth", not the other cavity at the end of the digestive tract.

***Some members of our former "messianic" congregation thought it was hillarious to try to convinvce me something was vegetarian at oneg when it wasn't***

Oh how I sympathize! My MIL does this all the time...once I was eating a plateful of cauliflower, wondering why I was getting a stomach-ache (thought I had the flu), when she said in a loud stage whisper, "Don't tell her I cooked that in bacon grease!" Gross and wrong on so many levels...I've been a vegetarian for almost three years, and avoiding unclean meats for five.

Good to see other vegetarians here

<<<end of hijack, sorry about that >>>