What happened to public education?

[Autumnleaf]

Not so long ago an education taught several languages, maths, science and writing. These days it seems like we get much less for our money. We get kids who can make change at their Starbucks jobs and they tow the line on how terrible guns and global warming are.

 

[Syd the Human]

Not so long ago an education taught several languages, maths, science and writing. These days it seems like we get much less for our money. We get kids who can make change at their Starbucks jobs and they tow the line on how terrible guns and global warming are.

Do we not still teach math, science, and writing? We were required in middle school to take a class that taught the basics of Spanish, French, and German.

I admit that the american public education system is failing, but we rarely talked about guns and global warming at school. But I'm in the Bible belt so that may be why.

 

[keith99]

Things go both directions.

When I was in High School I had 2 AP classes. Calculus and European History. I also took the AP test for Physics with minimal additional studying and got college credit at an elite college.

My (public) high school continued to climb for some time after that, but has since declined.

I have co workers 10-15 years out of (public) high school who had about a dozen AP classes in High School.

Plenty of kids getting a better High School education than I did. Plenty getting worse.

 

[Belk]

Not so long ago an education taught several languages, maths, science and writing. These days it seems like we get much less for our money. We get kids who can make change at their Starbucks jobs and they tow the line on how terrible guns and global warming are.

And the average was an eighth grade education.

 

[SaltwaterHeart]

Not so long ago an education taught several languages, maths, science and writing. These days it seems like we get much less for our money. We get kids who can make change at their Starbucks jobs and they tow the line on how terrible guns and global warming are.

I went to two different school districts during my time in public school: One was the district in my home town, and the other was an art school where I spent my Junior and Senior years. Both taught academics, but they, also, talked about how global warming affects the Earth, and how gang violence impacts people. There was more time spent on academics, but I do think that discussing these other issues is a good thing to do.

Also, can we talk about how sex education, in the public school system, is very often uninformative and misleading?
I did not learn about proper contraceptives, like condoms (and how to put one on), until the 10th grade. The rest of the time, we were taught to be abstinent, and to be shameful of any sexual curiosities we may have. I can understand teaching abstinence in a Christian school, but this is a public school setting, where people have many different beliefs. If anything, abstinence should be taught alongside safe-sex practices. ("The only way to protect from STDs is to not have sex; but, if you choose to have sex, use the following contraceptives...")

 

[KitKatMatt]

We weren't taught about global warming, or guns, or anything that happened past the Civil Rights Act (and not very much on that either, most of the emphasis went from "Columbus discovered America" to WWII).

Math (basics, algebra, geometry, some calculus) was required for the state minimum graduation plan. So was science (biology, physics, chem, some others). State minimum did not require a foreign language (this is what I took because our Spanish and French teachers were pretty awful and I wasn't interested in either language) but the other two plans required either two or four courses in them.

None of that has changed in our school since I graduated seven years ago. But you know what HAS changed? They aren't teaching kids how to properly use computers anymore. All of my younger family members have no idea what a URL bar is, they type with their index fingers (at horribly slow speeds), and they also don't know how to operate basic software like Word (don't know how to change fonts, bold, change margins, etc). Access and Excel? Forget about it. They're cutting it so that they have "more time to teach for the state tests"- so basically, cutting out vital skills that they need to operate in our modern computer-driven world so they can drill more tests.

That, I am mad at.

 

[Nithavela]

I hope you guys don't forget how to farm the land, most of our rice comes from your place and I like asian food.

 

[Kalevalatar]

Well, we as a society made the fundamental, page-turning long-term commitment to give every single child exactly the same opportunity to learn and achieve at high levels, regardless of family's socio-economic background, income, or regional circumstances, and we recognized that to accomplish that, we needed top class educators, pedagogical experts with pedagogical autonomy in the classroom.

Thankfully, being the world's #1 consumer of coffee per capita with rather refined taste, we only have three Starbucks.

Thankfully, being a gun-heavy nation with almost half of households owning guns, we practise responsible gun ownership and don't let our kids shoot themselves or each other with their dad's unlocked and loaded guns left freely available for unauthorised use.

And thankfully, we have a broad cross-partisan political consensus for climate protection, seeing as we are an outdoorsy nation of hikers, hunters, berry-pickers and general cabin-in-the-woods crazy nature lovers. Unlike some other nations out there, we recognize that it's a bad idea to poop where we eat.

However, being a well educated nation of trilingual citizens, we know better than to try to draw a simplistic straight line between the excellent education we offer to our kids, our gun ownership rates, coffee consumption, and our national commitment to protect God's Creation, our land of a thousand lakes, for cheap political brownie points. But maybe that's because the common goal for all our political parties is to keep this country great, not just to categorically oppose anything and everything other parties propose. Something about a house divided and all that.

 

[High Fidelity]

Public education is fine.

If I was to change one thing it would be to go back to teaching the subject, not teaching students how to pass the exams.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Well, we as a society made the fundamental, page-turning long-term commitment to give every single child exactly the same opportunity to learn and achieve at high levels, regardless of family's socio-economic background, income, or regional circumstances, and we recognized that to accomplish that, we needed top class educators, pedagogical experts with pedagogical autonomy in the classroom.

Thankfully, being the world's #1 consumer of coffee per capita with rather refined taste, we only have three Starbucks.

Thankfully, being a gun-heavy nation with almost half of households owning guns, we practise responsible gun ownership and don't let our kids shoot themselves or each other with their dad's unlocked and loaded guns left freely available for unauthorised use.

And thankfully, we have a broad cross-partisan political consensus for climate protection, seeing as we are an outdoorsy nation of hikers, hunters, berry-pickers and general cabin-in-the-woods crazy nature lovers. Unlike some other nations out there, we recognize that it's a bad idea to poop where we eat.

However, being a well educated nation of trilingual citizens, we know better than to try to draw a simplistic straight line between the excellent education we offer to our kids, our gun ownership rates, coffee consumption, and our national commitment to protect God's Creation, our land of a thousand lakes, for cheap political brownie points. But maybe that's because the common goal for all our political parties is to keep this country great, not just to categorically oppose anything and everything other parties propose. Something about a house divided and all that.

Finland has the luxury of being 94 per cent Finnish. Even your immigrants (mainly Russians and Swedes) are indistinguishable from the native Finns.

 

[Kalevalatar]

Finland has the luxury of being 94 per cent Finnish. Even your immigrants (mainly Russians and Swedes) are indistinguishable from the native Finns.

Yes and those Russian immigrants speak Russian as their home language or any of the 27 official Russian languages or the 100+ minority languages spoken in their multiethnic country of origin. Culturally, of course, they are not Lutheran Finnish either, and Finnish culture & way of life and Russian culture(s) & ways of lives are definitely worlds apart. The rather, shall I say, flashy and distinguishly Russian sense of clothing style alone is a dead giveaway that sets the Russian apart and of course, the Russian language itself, which again is nothing like Finnish.

So what do you mean, I wonder, when you say that the Russians are, quote, "indistinguishable from the native Finns"?

You see, when we say that we have made the fundamental commitment to give every single child exactly the same opportunity to learn and achieve at high levels, regardless of family's socio-economic background, it means exactly that we give the non-Finnish-speaking immigrant kids from Chechnya, Tatarstan, Ukraine, Iraq, Somalia or Vietnam the same opportunity to learn and achieve at high levels that we give to the Finnish-speaking kids and Swedish-speaking kids, by giving them a multicultural, multilingual quality education, to reflect the fact that in Helsinki area, 45% of pupils have a language other than Finnish as their mother tongue.

Immigrant children benefit from Finnish education
Finland's education system is already praised worldwide. Now, as its population becomes more diverse, it is setting a great example when it comes to educating its immigrant children, too

Polyglots an asset for Finnish society

More than 50 languages are taught through the nationwide scheme that enables local education authorities to set up free classes in any language wherever they can connect suitably skilled teachers with at least four school-age children who speak the target language at home. Russian, Arabic, English, Estonian, Chinese and Spanish are widely taught, as well as languages of significant immigrant communities including Somali, Kurdish, Albanian and Vietnamese.

"When it comes to immigrant families, the thinking in Finland is not to 'assimilate' them into Finnish society, but to 'integrate' them effectively. Countries whose systems don’t value the linguistic and cultural backgrounds of immigrant communities tend to have more problems with integration," says Leena Nissilä, an expert in multilingual education from the Finnish National Board of Education.
​

Indeed.

As to the OP red herrings of coffee jobs, guns, climate protection, plus immigration, I'm sure there's a meaningful big picture connection there. Oh wait, just kidding. It's still nonsense, just like your immigration red herring here.

 

[keith99]

Yes and those Russian immigrants speak Russian as their home language or any of the 27 official Russian languages or the 100+ minority languages spoken in their multiethnic country of origin. Culturally, of course, they are not Lutheran Finnish either, and Finnish culture & way of life and Russian culture(s) & ways of lives are definitely worlds apart. The rather, shall I say, flashy and distinguishly Russian sense of clothing style alone is a dead giveaway that sets the Russian apart and of course, the Russian language itself, which again is nothing like Finnish.

So what do you mean, I wonder, when you say that the Russians are, quote, "indistinguishable from the native Finns"?

You see, when we say that we have made the fundamental commitment to give every single child exactly the same opportunity to learn and achieve at high levels, regardless of family's socio-economic background, it means exactly that we give the non-Finnish-speaking immigrant kids from Chechnya, Tatarstan, Ukraine, Iraq, Somalia or Vietnam the same opportunity to learn and achieve at high levels that we give to the Finnish-speaking kids and Swedish-speaking kids, by giving them a multicultural, multilingual quality education, to reflect the fact that in Helsinki area, 45% of pupils have a language other than Finnish as their mother tongue.

Immigrant children benefit from Finnish education
Finland's education system is already praised worldwide. Now, as its population becomes more diverse, it is setting a great example when it comes to educating its immigrant children, too

Polyglots an asset for Finnish society

More than 50 languages are taught through the nationwide scheme that enables local education authorities to set up free classes in any language wherever they can connect suitably skilled teachers with at least four school-age children who speak the target language at home. Russian, Arabic, English, Estonian, Chinese and Spanish are widely taught, as well as languages of significant immigrant communities including Somali, Kurdish, Albanian and Vietnamese.

"When it comes to immigrant families, the thinking in Finland is not to 'assimilate' them into Finnish society, but to 'integrate' them effectively. Countries whose systems don’t value the linguistic and cultural backgrounds of immigrant communities tend to have more problems with integration," says Leena Nissilä, an expert in multilingual education from the Finnish National Board of Education.
​

Indeed.

As to the OP red herrings of coffee jobs, guns, climate protection, plus immigration, I'm sure there's a meaningful big picture connection there. Oh wait, just kidding. It's still nonsense, just like your immigration red herring here.

No the cultural difference are significant. They represent both a problem and an opportunity for the U.S.

And I seriously doubt you are able to give all children the same opportunities I had. Why? Because a significant part of opportunity starts very early and requires a close and ongoing relationship. And that can only be done at home.

Now I'm not saying the commitment of Finland is bad, anything but. It does minimize the difference in opportunity, but it does not eliminate it. It may well cut the difference by 95%, but that last 5% still remains.

My guess is that in Finland that reduction is more than enough. In the U.S. it would not be. Those from many homes would still be at a significant disadvantage.

And there lies the huge difference. Finland does seem to have a consensus that education matters. Not here. There are some who seem to actively distrust education. Many others who don't care.

How can the state make people value education?

BTW I'm not sure ethnic diversity harms the U.S. in the ways others claim. I just started thinking about my co workers. I have Chinese, Latino, African (both American born and born in Africa) and Indian (as in from India) co workers. All with good jobs and all from heritages that value education.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yes and those Russian immigrants speak Russian as their home language or any of the 27 official Russian languages or the 100+ minority languages spoken in their multiethnic country of origin. Culturally, of course, they are not Lutheran Finnish either, and Finnish culture & way of life and Russian culture(s) & ways of lives are definitely worlds apart. The rather, shall I say, flashy and distinguishly Russian sense of clothing style alone is a dead giveaway that sets the Russian apart and of course, the Russian language itself, which again is nothing like Finnish.

So what do you mean, I wonder, when you say that the Russians are, quote, "indistinguishable from the native Finns"?

You see, when we say that we have made the fundamental commitment to give every single child exactly the same opportunity to learn and achieve at high levels, regardless of family's socio-economic background, it means exactly that we give the non-Finnish-speaking immigrant kids from Chechnya, Tatarstan, Ukraine, Iraq, Somalia or Vietnam the same opportunity to learn and achieve at high levels that we give to the Finnish-speaking kids and Swedish-speaking kids, by giving them a multicultural, multilingual quality education, to reflect the fact that in Helsinki area, 45% of pupils have a language other than Finnish as their mother tongue.

Immigrant children benefit from Finnish education
Finland's education system is already praised worldwide. Now, as its population becomes more diverse, it is setting a great example when it comes to educating its immigrant children, too

Polyglots an asset for Finnish society

More than 50 languages are taught through the nationwide scheme that enables local education authorities to set up free classes in any language wherever they can connect suitably skilled teachers with at least four school-age children who speak the target language at home. Russian, Arabic, English, Estonian, Chinese and Spanish are widely taught, as well as languages of significant immigrant communities including Somali, Kurdish, Albanian and Vietnamese.

"When it comes to immigrant families, the thinking in Finland is not to 'assimilate' them into Finnish society, but to 'integrate' them effectively. Countries whose systems don’t value the linguistic and cultural backgrounds of immigrant communities tend to have more problems with integration," says Leena Nissilä, an expert in multilingual education from the Finnish National Board of Education.
​

Indeed.

As to the OP red herrings of coffee jobs, guns, climate protection, plus immigration, I'm sure there's a meaningful big picture connection there. Oh wait, just kidding. It's still nonsense, just like your immigration red herring here.

You don't have large, problematic ethnic minorities as do other countries. Consider yourself fortunate.

 

[selfinflikted]

What happened to public education? My opinion is, the public education system in the U.S. started going downhill 15-20 or so years ago. Why? Perceived inequality. What do I mean by that? School uniforms, No Child Left Behind, awards and ribbons just for participation, etc. These kinds of things do a HUGE disservice to children. It could cause them to believe, when coming out of high school, that life is fair and equal. But we all know it isn't. People are more afraid nowadays of hurting a child's feelings because they didn't pass a test or win first place, so they scale the grades or give them a ribbon or award anyway. Parents now, instead of yelling at the child to do better, yell at the teacher when the child gets poor grades. Yes, of course it's the teacher's fault and never MY kid.

/facepalm

 

[keith99]

What happened to public education? My opinion is, the public education system in the U.S. started going downhill 15-20 or so years ago. Why? Perceived inequality. What do I mean by that? School uniforms, No Child Left Behind, awards and ribbons just for participation, etc. These kinds of things do a HUGE disservice to children. It could cause them to believe, when coming out of high school, that life is fair and equal. But we all know it isn't. People are more afraid nowadays of hurting a child's feelings because they didn't pass a test or win first place, so they scale the grades or give them a ribbon or award anyway. Parents now, instead of yelling at the child to do better, yell at the teacher when the child gets poor grades. Yes, of course it's the teacher's fault and never MY kid.

/facepalm

Your post reminded me of something I meant to say before.

It seems everyone cares more about grades than learning. In some ways it has always looked a bit that way, but often it was just 'got a bad grade' was shorthand for 'didn't learn in your class'. Now I'm beginning to think it is the reality of what many parents care about. That some parents would eb perfectly happy if their kid got straight 'A's in high school but could not perform at a 6th grade level.

 

[selfinflikted]

Your post reminded me of something I meant to say before.

It seems everyone cares more about grades than learning. In some ways it has always looked a bit that way, but often it was just 'got a bad grade' was shorthand for 'didn't learn in your class'. Now I'm beginning to think it is the reality of what many parents care about. That some parents would eb perfectly happy if their kid got straight 'A's in high school but could not perform at a 6th grade level.

Well, that's because grades mean you either pass or fail. No one wants to see their kids fail, understandably. But I think you're right - the emphasis should be on learning and critical thinking rather than grades and testing.

 

[Joykins]

Not so long ago an education taught several languages, maths, science and writing. These days it seems like we get much less for our money. We get kids who can make change at their Starbucks jobs and they tow the line on how terrible guns and global warming are.

We keep inventing things like "computers" and discovering new science and the kids have to learn it all, thus the less emphasis on dead languages such as Latin and Greek.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Most kids are capable of maxing most courses. The problem is that they're being rushed through too fast, and they are allowed too many distractions.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

We get kids who can make change at their Starbucks jobs and they tow the line on how terrible guns and global warming are.

You meant can't make (count) change, didn't you? Counting change is a lost art.