What happened to covenant keeping?

[Muel23]

Hello everyone. I'm new to the forum, just started perusing the web last night for legal separation information as my wife and I are currently separated. I wanted to see what other believers were doing to encourage one another and build each other up in their marriages, cause frankly, we all need that. Marriage is hard. I have to admit to being surprised at what is too often the general tone of this board. I read comments about people praying for divorce, or wanting to be the first to file, or feeling good about getting divorced and it's stunning to me.

I understand there are extrenuating circumstances in all of our marriages. We have spouses who are flawed, who are horribly broken, who are imperfect creatures who too often hurt us, often deliberately. But they are our flesh, we are one. Not created by man for man, but created by God for God. To display Himself and image forth His relationship with His people. That is our call and our purpose in marriage. To reflect the relationship between Christ and the Church. I read people saying that God wouldn't want them to continue like this, that they're not happy, that they're suffering...that God wants them to be happy...and I wonder where in Scripture is this sentiment coming from? That's not the same Word that I'm reading. I'm reading that we need to be fulfilled, need to find our ultimate joy in one place, and one place only, and that is in God. Not in our marriages, not in the world, not in our circumstances. I mean, my gosh, what if Paul had taken that same sentiment, of God wants me to be happy, or to enjoy my call in Him? He suffered gladly for the cause of Christ, in revealing Him to the world.

And that's what we're called to do with our marriages. Reveal Christ. No matter how much effort, how many tears, how much suffering. No matter how many ways it detracts from the lives we wanted for ourselves or imagined/expected to happen. God wants us to find our delight and joy in Him, and in following Him, suffering to reveal Him, walking through hardships willingly because revealing His surpassing worth over and above our circumstances is what shows that our hope is elsewhere. It is not here. It is not in this world or the suffering we endure here in bearing our cross. Those burdens are light and momentary afflictions, they are as nothing compared to the glory that will be revealed in us.

So, I'm calling all of you in troubled marriages to give this some thought. To pray on this. To seek the One who can give you the strength to bear and endure all. In Him we find our joy and our strength. In Him we find our purpose, to reveal His surpassing worth in our lives, so that He is glorified in us. I know it's hard, and I too have spent the long hours of the night thinking there is no other way out of this. That I'm trapped in a loveless and unfulfilling marriage. But I'm not trapped. You're not trapped. Not that there is a way out (divorce), but we can freely choose to remain, to stand in covenant before God and man in revealing Christ to the world. When we so readily open ourselves up to divorce as an option, we reflect a world's priorities of happiness and contentment before our devotion to our Maker and His very clear will in this matter. His commands are NOT burdensome, they are for our best. Staying married is for our best in Him. And we can trust and rely on that. God is for us. He lovingly lays out a path for us to follow and all we need to do is TRUST. Wait on the Lord. Pray on the Lord. And act on His word, in ways that reveal His light and His significance, that our Father in heaven would be seen and praised.

I just want to encourage those of you with fighting despair and weariness in your marriages. God can redeem your marriages. God can change hearts and work miracles. He does it every day. His power is at work in us, in our spouses. And it is the same power that raised Christ from the dead. It is the same power that created the universe. And it is the same power that cleansed us and guarantees us a place with Him in heaven. Our God is all about reconciliation. He reconciled us to Himself in an unprecedented act of love. He desires reconciliation in your marriage, and He desires that you desire it too. Whether or not your spouse has broken covenant. It's not a tit for tat. You look at the story of God's interaction with His people and it is clear, the covenant He calls us to as believers is that of forbearance and forgiveness, of faithfulness even in the face of faithlessness. When we act in this way, we show that we are aliens and strangers in this world, operating by a different code, a different set of priorities. I pray that God would reveal Himself in lives that bring attention to His love, His faithfulness, His mercies as His Spirit enables us to walk the difficult and often painful path of obedience. Marriage is hard. But God's grace is sufficient.

 

[DZoolander]

I'm not sure what you've been reading - but it's not the same thing I've been seeing.

I see people who are suffering - who have sincerely tried to make things work - but feel forced to finally act in self interest despite how badly it makes them feel. I don't see anyone reveling in the fact that they are going to be getting a divorce - or feeling joyous about it. I see people who feel trepidation - uncertainty - and fear as a result of their decision. Nobody is approaching divorce flippantly...or happily.

The simple fact of the matter is that divorce is an option...and that option is on the table.

Don't get me wrong. I respect your motivations. However - I think that your intentions - while good - are woefully misguided and ignore a lot of the realities of life. I think that problems should be overcome. I think that people should work to resolve their problems. Where I think we differ is that I believe that people *do* these things. We see it all the time.

...and I do not believe that divorce is testament to any lack of fortitude on the part of the one who makes that final decision...or is in any way indicative of a lack of effort on their part to make things whole again. Most people that I know who are divorced have gone through a lot of angst over it - for exactly the reasons you mention. They wanted to make it work...they tried to make it work...however...eventually they concluded that their partner wasn't on board like they were.

Marriages *should* last. Love *should* prevail. Everything should be able to be endured. However - the one caveat in that is - you should never have to figure out how to endure what your partner is doing *to* you. That's not a partnership - and that's not a marriage. Most of the divorces I know are like that. One party finally realized that it wasn't a partnership any more - and finally refused to allow the other individual to continue mistreating them.

...and walking away from rejection is not a sin. In fact - I'd say it's almost Godly.

You say man should love his spouse as Christ loves the church... I think man does. What's the one unforgivable sin? Rejection of God (the Holy Spirit). God is willing to accept and forgive anything - provided you're living your life *with* Him. Forgiveness does not come/is not granted in the face of man's rejection of Him though.

It's the same thing.

 

[Muel23]

Thanks for your response EZoolander. It's very possible that I misread the prevailing sentiment on the board. What I don't think I misread is an acceptance of breaking the marital covenant. You said it yourself when you recognize divorce as an acceptable option in a marriage. I think compassion and sympathy and understanding are called for when counseling a married friend or individual who is suffering unduly in an often confusing and agonizing marriage. What I am wondering about is the common response on this board of..."you've got to walk away from this", or "God wouldn't want you to suffer through something like this". I thought our role as brothers and sisters in Christ was to exhort each other to following and living God's Word in our lives...which is very clearly not divorce. It is permanence in our covenants. It is endurance. It is perseverance. And I know it's hard.

You say people feel forced to act in their own self-interest, as if acting in self-interest is a goal or should be a priority in our lives. Do you really believe that? We should be walking according to God's interests and God's plans, not in self-interest. We are called to die to self to live for Christ. I don't believe that this goal is "woefully misguided" as you call it. Living for this world and our time here is not our purpose. We are called to live radical lives for Christ. To sacrifice our very lives for Him, in recognizing the supremacy of God in all things. If that means laboring through a nightmare of a marriage because we trust God to get us through, and to use it for His purposes...as inscrutable as they can be....than that's what we do. I think you open Pandora's box when you justify divorce on the grounds that one partner is being "mistreated", and that marriage is no longer a partnership. I think one of the themes of the Bible is God's enduring faithfulness as our bridegroom in spite of our MANY rejections of Him. I can speak of that in my own life. God doesn't just take a rejection and condemn man to hell. God is unfailingly persistent in confronting us in our lives, wooing us to Him and pursuing us as often as we turn our backs in disobedience and rebellion. Walking away from rejection is not something I would call Godly at all. The God I serve, the God I see in the world is delaying judgement because He is patient in wanting all rejectors of Him to come to salvation. THAT is Godly.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across strongly, but I believe strongly in the sacredness of the marriage covenant. I believe strongly in a powerful God who changes hearts and inspires hope. I don't believe in divorce. I don't believe it is EVER God's will for marriage. I know it is hard, and I'm walking in this myself, but all you troubled, mistreated, suffering spouses out there... God is more than enough to strengthen you to endure. He is more than enough to fill your life with hope and joy. It is only when we stop thinking about self-interest and turn away from self and towards God that He is glorified as above all in our lives. There is hope in Him. There is power to change dead marriages. After all, He called each of us from death into life. I believe in a supernatural God who powerfully impacts lives and relationships in revealing His glory. And I don't believe it is misguided or naive to walk in that belief. To trust God and walk in obedience no matter how "foolish" it is to the world.

 

[DZoolander]

That's perfectly fine! You don't need to apologize for coming off strongly. I come off equally strongly in my opinions - so I respect that

I doubt we're ever going to come to consensus on this - because you believe that the "option should be off the table" - whereas I can't bring myself to say/believe that. As much as I do believe in the sanctity and covenant of marriage - I believe that there are circumstances and situations where divorce is an acceptable (albeit regrettable) option.

Since we're probably not going to come to consensus - I'm just going to offer my counterpoint/opinion to what you said - for my own peace of mind...lol

I think divorce is exactly like God's love for the Church. Like I said before - God's grace and forgiveness knows no bounds - so long as you are walking *with* Him. It's the same thing with marriage. There are no obstacles that cannot be overcome - provided you're walking that path together. But - if you spit in God's face (and understand I don't believe sinning to be spitting in God's face. Christ Himself said - 'forgive them Father - for they know not what they do) - you will be discarded by God. If you willfully reject God's love - and willfully reject His grace - then you're damned. That's one of the major tenants of our faith. The one unforgivable sin is the rejection of the Holy Spirit...and ya know...with that...you are damned.

Basically - that's the contract with God. If you willfully accept Him and His Grace - nothing can come between you. If you willfully choose to reject Him - then you are abandoned. Same thing with marriage.

As for the stuff about the sacrificing of "worldly happiness" or contentment for the sake of the eternal - it's always weird for me to hear people talk about that stuff. In my humble opinion - there is no distinction between the two.

What is the Bible about - for the most part? What did 99% of what Jesus taught have to do with? What was the bulk of the old Covenant? What is the Sermon on the Mound almost entirely about?

Everything in the Bible has to do with how to treat your fellow man. You are most Godly when you are helping - and truly loving - your fellow human being. That's the whole lesson of the Bible. That's what it focuses upon. You are most Godly when you are treating your fellow man with love and respect *here on earth*. There is no greater testament to being Godly than how you conduct yourself here and now - and with the comfort of your fellow man in mind. Pretty much every law in the Bible is an earthly and social law.

Don't take your brother's goods (here on earth...for obvious earthly reasons)
Don't kill your brother (here on earth...for obvious earthly reasons)
Don't bear false witness against your brother (here on earth...etc etc)

The list goes on.

I do not believe that God is nearly as disinterested in our contentment and happiness as people seem to think. Just and righteous behavior here on earth will lead to contentment and happiness here on earth. You're expected to worry about your brother's happiness...and extend him respect and courtesy.. You're expected to walk with him - even if he is a stranger.

Ya know?

...and with that in mind...I cannot believe that the expectations (and I do mean expectations) of the *one* person who has actually *promised* to treat you with respect and love "above all others" is somehow less.

 

[FaithfulWife]

Muel~

I mean no disrespect so I hope I can write this reply in a way that will make sense to you. I happen to note that you are 30 years old and I have to admit that when I was your age I probably could have and would have written the exact same post. And I don't mean to just dismiss what you say with a "...well you're young..." but rather to say that I was virtually right where you are when I was your age. I did not choose my first husband wisely, but even though I did realize that at the age of 30, I still married for life and meant every word of my vows and my covenant before God and man.

Here's what changed my mind.

At about the age that you are now, my first husband carried on two affairs with two different women in front of my nose while I was pregnant with our second child. It was not about sex or lack thereof--I love sex and loved him and wanted him--and out of respect for him I'll just say that although I may have my opinions what it was about, that's HIS issue and HIS reason. Then our daughter was born 2 months early (maybe due to the stress of the two affairs) and he REALLY could not deal with the concept that his child was not born "perfect." The nights that NICU, seeing her in her incubator, learning how to do infant CPR, learning how to run her heart monitor--I did all that alone. But Muel I was in a MARRIAGE. If I had had a child out of sin and been raising her as a single person that would have been one thing--but I wasn't. I was MARRIED and my partner was .....?? So you see, I wasn't the one who turned away.

Eventually our daughter got better and got stronger and didn't need her heart monitor. Time marched on and I became more and more aware that things were not right between us but being young and inexperienced I didn't know WHAT wasn't right...only that they weren't. I grew up in a physically abusive home--I had no idea what a healthy relationship was like--so I didn't know what to do, only that I made a vow and intended to keep it. I heard of people having affairs or having a divorce, and I foolishly thought to myself, "Well that may happen to other people but it won't happen to us. We have a special/different marriage that will last forever."

Then one Feb. 3rd my then husband woke up and left the house like he had 1000 times before that and I thought he was heading to work. The next time I saw him was 6 months later! He just WALKED OUT ON US! Eventually I figured out that he had left the state to go live with his mistress with 4 kids from 4 different dads! That wasn't even the worst of it! After he left the family, I began to get calls that our bills were behind and our mortgage was 3 months overdue. But wait there's more! I worked at his business, so when he left, there was no business and I had no job. So...he walked out on his wife, his own children, spent our money on his mistress, and left me with no job, no money, no way to care for our children, and a house that was about to be foreclosed!!

Would that try your covenant do you think? I do. But even then I did not instigate the divorce. I got a job, dealt with the creditors, paid off all the bills and caught up the mortgage, and was moving along with life doing a fairly good job of keeping it together. I began individual counseling and began to see that I was responsible for my issues and my problems, but I was not responsible for HIS. It was HIS job to honor HIS covenant to me. It was HIS job to work on his issues and deal with his problems. Yet he refused to, and when his mistress got sick of him and kicked him out, he came back home and I hoped that he would work on our family and get his life in order. STILL he refused and his abusive nature got worse and worse. Finally in fear one day, I called the police for help. He had come over to the house, we had begun to argue a bit and I asked him if he would leave so we wouldn't start a big "knock-down, drag-out" (and I just mean "walk away" not move out). He wouldn't. I asked him 10-15 times using the exact same words over and over and he would not and began to menace and back me into a corner. I should mention here that my ex is 6ft. 4in. tall and I'm 4ft. 10in. I ducked under a big desk we had in the house, grabbed the phone and said, "Please walk away and back up and let me out of here or I will have to call 9-1-1". I said this at least 10 times over and over and he tried to wrestle the phone from me and then choke me with the phone cord. At that point I hit dial (auto-dial 1) and got 9-1-1 as he was choking me.

Is your covenant challenged yet? Of the two of us involved in my first marriage, which one is the one breaking the covenant again?

When the police arrived, they took him and I filed a restraining order for safety. When he was released they accompanied him to the house while he packed a suitcase, and the whole time he kept yelling at me that now HE had a domestic violence record BECAUSE OF ME!!! (No he didn't. He could have made other choices. He had a record because of his own actions.) Thereafter, I changed the locks so he couldn't just walk in and harm the kids and I, and thereafter he broke into the house, pounded holes in the wall, deleted my PC harddrive, and otherwise vandalized our house. And I still sought God's face and honored my covenant.

Then he filed divorce, and I could not stop it. I lost everything I thought I had: a husband, a father for my children, a business partner, my home, EVERYTHING. Trust me when I say that this was done TO me! So I turned to God to try to figure out why--and what happened? And that is when I found the entire Malachi verse:

Malachi 2:16
"I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his household," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith."

Everyone sees that first part, but forgets that second part! Then I also saw this verse:

Proverbs 4:23
"Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life."

God loves my ex and wants him to come to a loving knowledge of Him, but God also loves ME. MY heart is a deep well of life for the people around me and it is valued enought that God wants me to guard myself!

Finally I found all the verses in I Corinthians 7. Notice that in verses 10-11 it says: "To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife." I have a duty to not be separated from my husband, but if I am that I'm to stay single or go to him. But also note that my husband has a duty to not divorce the wife! A fundamental part of the equation is that we BOTH have responsibilities one to another. I can hold up my side of the bargain all I want, but I can't "make" my spouse hold up his end. Some part of him has to want to do that -AND- has to follow through on it too!

Finally there is this verse in the same chapter:

1 Corinthians 7:15
"But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace."

I think if I had reason to believe that my first husband was a believer who was just SEVERELY back-sliding, that I had a lifetime obligation to remain single or reconcile to him. But I know for a fact he was NOT a believer. I know for a fact because he did not say he was a believer, did not try to even pretend to be a believer, and did not live as a believer would. So what does it say RIGHT THERE? It says that I am to let the unbelieving person leave--that I am not bound in those circumstances. I believe I honored my covenant, that I was not the one who broke it, and that because of that and because the unbeliever walked away, I was released from the covenant.

Now...what if HE had not filed divorce papers? What if he had behaved in all those ways, moved away, carried on as a single man, lived with other women, and just never bothered to file papers? Does that mean that there is still a covenant? I personally believe that the covenant is between GOD and the husband and the wife, and the civil marriage ceremony is an exterior legality. When a person makes the covenant, it is there daily ACTIONS that show their love to their spouse and their obedience to God--not the "piece of paper." So when actions consistently break the covenant, and there is no attempt toward or movement toward repentance, then the covenant is broken...and sometime the unrepentant one just does not file the "paperwork" to confirm what their actions have already done.

Thus, you do occasionally see one of us say to another whom we have known for a long time, whom we have witnessed struggling to stay healthy and honor their vow, whom we know has worked and prayed for their spouse to come to their sense and come back to God--occasionally we will indeed type the words that "God would not want them to continue like that". Frankly it is my belief that when ONE spouse leaves the other, carries on affairs, drinks or does drugs, and behaves like that for years with no repentance in site...that at some point it is THEIR actions that broke the covenant, not the one who stayed and waited and prayed and honored the covenant. Does God want us to honor our covenants? YES INDEED! If you've ever studied covenants you know that He does! But He also knows that we are sinful and indeed has made provision in verses like Malachi 2 and I Cor. 7 for those of us who are abandoned by our spouses and their choices.

In love,



~Faithful

 

[Muel23]

FaithfulWife....WOW. It sounds like you've been through an absolutely horrendous ordeal. I can't even imagine walking in and through those things, though I pray for you knowing God has been there with you, every step of the way, and I hope you have walked strengthened by that, encouraged by that...rooted and established in His steadfast love for you. I can only say that you have certainly demonstrated faithfulness to your covenant. If a spouse decides to leave and get a divorce that is hard, but it is a decision they make and will have to live with. You seem to have given him every opportunity to turn back to your marriage, and stuck by him even when that seemed less than remotely likely. Thanks for your courage, and the display of Christ's heart in sticking so fast to your covenant, even in the face of a number of things that you could have used to justify, rationalize, or even Biblically support a decision to break your vow.

EZoolander...I think there is a big difference between worldly happiness and fulfillment and hope in an eternity of fellowship and relationship with God. Over and over in the New Testament we are called to store up treasures in heaven, to set our minds on things above, to hate the things of the world, the temporary pleasures and contentment that come from sinful and self-directed thinking. Not that we can't enjoy the things that we're given in this life, but those things should always take a back seat to the pure enjoyment and delight in our Creator. When you lay out the Sermon on the Mount, and talk about how what is most important for us in living life is how we treat others here on earth, what you're really describing is us professing to the reality of God's all-encompassing goodness by extending it to others. It is His love we are professing, His grace, His generosity and provision, His holiness and goodness...not our own. We are reflectors of His abundant goodness, we testify with our lives and the decisions we make that there is a God who loves, who gives, who sacrifices and serves. That is the profound calling of our lives. To reveal a Creator, to point to Him, to glorify and praise His names through the overflow of His heart in our lives. It's not about happiness and fulfillment in what we have here, it's about attesting to an eternal glory and hope that drive us to make different decisions that reveal where our treasure is. Where our trust is. Where our hope is.

And again, that's why it is so important to stand for marriage. In standing by our covenant, as far as it is up to us, we reveal our love for Christ in obeying His commands. We show our trust in His Word by walking in it, even when it doesn't make sense to us, even when it causes us great pain. In persevering through tremendous suffering in honoring our vows, we reveal that our security and contentment are not derived from our circumstances, but from our unshakable hope. In laying our lives down for our spouses, in laying down our self-interests, and serving them, honoring them, maintaining faithfulness to them, we reveal a Savior who died to set us free and covered us with grace...even when we were so undeserving of His favor. It is SO important to live as aliens and strangers, to live differently than the world that they can see the light and truth that are in Christ. And we can do it so intimately with our spouses, whether they eventually have eyes opened to see that or not. So, I just want to encourage people. If your marriage is on the ropes, and despair lurks around every corner, remember we serve a God who is greater than our darkest night and comforts us in the bleakest of occasions. We may be weak in ourselves, but we are strong in Him. And it is when we walk submissive and surrendered to His Word that His light shines brightest, in a world of darkness and brokenness where covenants are made to be broken. Be strong in the Lord!

 

[DZoolander]

EZoolander...I think there is a big difference between worldly happiness and fulfillment and hope in an eternity of fellowship and relationship with God. Over and over in the New Testament we are called to store up treasures in heaven, to set our minds on things above, to hate the things of the world, the temporary pleasures and contentment that come from sinful and self-directed thinking.

But that's the thing. I think that what God teaches us to resist are the shallow and selfish joys of the world. But - worldly joy need not be shallow or selfish...ya know?

If I truly treat you with love and as a brother - and you reciprocate - what's the end result? Isn't it earthly joy and contentment? If I care about your situation - and extend my hand to you in love - aren't I doing that on the earthly plane - and to help comfort you in earthly matters?

If we all truly followed the example set to us by Him - wouldn't true earthly joy abound? I just don't think there's the dichotomy between earthy and heavenly joy that many people seem to believe there is. Acting in the best interests of my fellow man - as God intended - will lead to his joy - as will his actions lead to mine.

(and I would also argue that true self interest compels such behavior... that true self interest really is not all that incompatible with heavenly virtue as well... and that it's only temporary and selfish behavior at the expense of the happiness of others that is truly to be vilified.)

Not that we can't enjoy the things that we're given in this life, but those things should always take a back seat to the pure enjoyment and delight in our Creator. When you lay out the Sermon on the Mount, and talk about how what is most important for us in living life is how we treat others here on earth, what you're really describing is us professing to the reality of God's all-encompassing goodness by extending it to others.

Exactly

It is His love we are professing, His grace, His generosity and provision, His holiness and goodness...not our own.

That's where we separate. lol I believe that God sets an example - and we choose to either manifest it within ourselves and create our own living examples of that goodness - or not. I believe that when we do love our fellow man as we ought to - that it is ours - and that it does come from us. At least - ideally it should.

We are reflectors of His abundant goodness, we testify with our lives and the decisions we make that there is a God who loves, who gives, who sacrifices and serves. That is the profound calling of our lives. To reveal a Creator, to point to Him, to glorify and praise His names through the overflow of His heart in our lives. It's not about happiness and fulfillment in what we have here, it's about attesting to an eternal glory and hope that drive us to make different decisions that reveal where our treasure is. Where our trust is. Where our hope is.

And again, that's why it is so important to stand for marriage. In standing by our covenant, as far as it is up to us, we reveal our love for Christ in obeying His commands. We show our trust in His Word by walking in it, even when it doesn't make sense to us, even when it causes us great pain. In persevering through tremendous suffering in honoring our vows, we reveal that our security and contentment are not derived from our circumstances, but from our unshakable hope. In laying our lives down for our spouses, in laying down our self-interests, and serving them, honoring them, maintaining faithfulness to them, we reveal a Savior who died to set us free and covered us with grace...even when we were so undeserving of His favor. It is SO important to live as aliens and strangers, to live differently than the world that they can see the light and truth that are in Christ. And we can do it so intimately with our spouses, whether they eventually have eyes opened to see that or not. So, I just want to encourage people. If your marriage is on the ropes, and despair lurks around every corner, remember we serve a God who is greater than our darkest night and comforts us in the bleakest of occasions. We may be weak in ourselves, but we are strong in Him. And it is when we walk submissive and surrendered to His Word that His light shines brightest, in a world of darkness and brokenness where covenants are made to be broken. Be strong in the Lord!

That's a wonderful ideal...I agree. However - I just don't draw the distinctions between the earthly and the eternal that you do - and I can't accept that God would expect the kind of self-sacrifice you're talking about in the face of the kinds of circumstances that truly lead to divorce. Most people don't get divorces for stupid reasons like being upset that their spouse can't remember to put the toilet seat down...or that they forget to put the toothpaste cap back on.

Most people (that I know) get divorced for the kinds of reasons that FaithfulWife was talking about... They are the ones that have been abandoned - and divorce is simply a final and sad recognition/acceptance of what has already happened despite their wishes. I refuse to believe that God expects the stagnation and sacrifice of the rest of your life that you seem to suggest in light of those types of circumstances.

I'm curious...though.

You say you're separated. Let's say your wife divorces you. Will you recognize that divorce and remarry?

 

[eatenbylocusts]

To the OP- is the separation your decision? From what I have read, separation is not good for reconciliation. It is harder to work on problems and often is the beginning of divorce.

There have been a few instances on CF where I have urged some to consider other options before separation or divorce, and there have been a very few times I have urged some to leave. Those were situations where violence, repeated affairs, and addictions had been tearing the marriage down for years.

I truly believe that God hates divorce, but I also truly believe that there are times when God's answer to prayer is a divorce. It doesn't matter how hard you pray and believe-sometimes the cancer is still there, the answer is no. In the case of an abusive spouse-they are still allowed to have free will.

I think there are probably many Christians who should've humbled themselves before God and their spouse and stayed in their marriages, but not all are salvageable. I'm going to assume you're not married to someone who is bi-polar, borderline personality, or one of the other delightful maladies that can afflict the mind. There are certainly some treatments for the above conditions, but not all are willing to be treated.

Should I even start to talk about the kids? It's bad enough to be yelled at, verbally and emotionally abused, but how can you think it would be ok to allow children to subjected to that? Children can be removed for houses for these things and end up in foster care. I'm glad your situation is not so bad that you can see hope. I hoped for that too. I prayed for a miracle. After 5 years of separation I knew it wasn't going to happen. Yes, I was overjoyed to finally get the divorce decree in the mail. Now my ex has been living in another country for about 3 years, has never sent one dime of child support and is living with a minor and their young toddler. (He's 55 years old). Should I have tried to save that marriage where he probably would've been abusing our dd? No. God's answer to me was divorce.

 

[Muel23]

I understand where each of you is coming from, but we have differing perspectives on suffering and sacrificing. I believe that sacrifices I make in honoring and elevating God in my life are gain. I show God to be supreme in my life when I trust Him. When I walk in His ways and not my own. And sometimes that defies human and worldly logic. There is a deeper joy to be had in obedience than there could ever be in pure circumstances...because we know that God is being seen, and His supremacy in our lives is being attested to. When God says that what God has united let man not separate, I take Him at His Word. When He says to take joy in trials of many kinds because the testing of my faith develops perseverance, I try and pray for that through the pain. Because I believe in a sovereign God who works good even through the most painful events of our lives.

This separation with my wife is NOT my choice. My marriage has been the most painful 2 years of my life. The flesh in me cries out for relief from this acute pain, but I'm trying to stand for my covenant. And the only way I can do that is by relying and trusting in God's purpose here. It strikes me as fairly ironic when people pray for discernment over God's will in their marriage...for divorce or restoration. What I believe is really being said is, "I don't want to believe God's will for marriage as explicitly laid out in His Word, so I am going to try and convince myself that His will for me could actually run contrary to His expressed Word." How could that even be possible? God's Word is His will. We KNOW God's will for marriage. We either believe it and walk in it, or we don't. And when we don't there is grace. This isn't a case of standing in judgement on those who have opted for divorce. It is a case of encouraging those who are contemplating it, and spurring them on to place their trust in God and in His desire for their marriage, which is NOT divorce. How can you look at the Word of God and not believe that to be the case?

We are becoming a generation of believers that place their own security and comfort ahead of our call to obedience on the justification that God would not want us to suffer. That's just not Biblical. If you truly believe we are called to be imitators of Christ, how could you possibly believe that our lives are to be lived according to self-will, self-plans, and self-gratification? That wasn't how Christ lived. He surrendered Himself to His Father's will. And He endured countless atrocities and suffering in the path of obedience. And He promised us the same. He endured it all for the joy set before Him. And so can we. And there is no greater testimony of God that we could possibly give to the world than to follow Him, even at great cost to ourselves. So do I understand why Christian couples are driven to divorce at the same rates as unbelievers? Yes. Marriage is hard. Some marriages are deeply painful and shattering. But I also know we are called to not conform to the patterns of this world, but be transformed through the renewing of our minds. We should not value the same things as the world. We should not fear the same things they do. And our lives should LIVE THAT OUT! My troubled marriage is not a hardship but an opportunity to testify to the surpassing treasure that is my Lord and Savior, in following Him, trusting Him, and finding joy in Him when it is scarce pretty much every where else.

EZoolander, if my wife divorces me, I'm not sure where that puts me. By God's grace I hope I will still be praying for a reconciliation. If she remarries than I think my situation changes. I haven't really delved into the Scripture so much in that. I am trying to live in the here and now, and fight for this marriage as best I can, pray for this marriage, and trust that whatever she chooses, my God is good and has good plans for my life, plans to comfort me with His love and goodness all the days of my life.

 

[DZoolander]

I hope that doesn't happen, either. I also wish you the best (with all of my heart) - and pray that your prayers are answered.

 

[catlover]

Hello everyone. I'm new to the forum, just started perusing the web last night for legal separation information as my wife and I are currently separated. I wanted to see what other believers were doing to encourage one another and build each other up in their marriages, cause frankly, we all need that. Marriage is hard. I have to admit to being surprised at what is too often the general tone of this board. I read comments about people praying for divorce, or wanting to be the first to file, or feeling good about getting divorced and it's stunning to me.

I understand there are extrenuating circumstances in all of our marriages. We have spouses who are flawed, who are horribly broken, who are imperfect creatures who too often hurt us, often deliberately. But they are our flesh, we are one. Not created by man for man, but created by God for God. To display Himself and image forth His relationship with His people. That is our call and our purpose in marriage. To reflect the relationship between Christ and the Church. I read people saying that God wouldn't want them to continue like this, that they're not happy, that they're suffering...that God wants them to be happy...and I wonder where in Scripture is this sentiment coming from? That's not the same Word that I'm reading. I'm reading that we need to be fulfilled, need to find our ultimate joy in one place, and one place only, and that is in God. Not in our marriages, not in the world, not in our circumstances. I mean, my gosh, what if Paul had taken that same sentiment, of God wants me to be happy, or to enjoy my call in Him? He suffered gladly for the cause of Christ, in revealing Him to the world.

And that's what we're called to do with our marriages. Reveal Christ. No matter how much effort, how many tears, how much suffering. No matter how many ways it detracts from the lives we wanted for ourselves or imagined/expected to happen. God wants us to find our delight and joy in Him, and in following Him, suffering to reveal Him, walking through hardships willingly because revealing His surpassing worth over and above our circumstances is what shows that our hope is elsewhere. It is not here. It is not in this world or the suffering we endure here in bearing our cross. Those burdens are light and momentary afflictions, they are as nothing compared to the glory that will be revealed in us.

So, I'm calling all of you in troubled marriages to give this some thought. To pray on this. To seek the One who can give you the strength to bear and endure all. In Him we find our joy and our strength. In Him we find our purpose, to reveal His surpassing worth in our lives, so that He is glorified in us. I know it's hard, and I too have spent the long hours of the night thinking there is no other way out of this. That I'm trapped in a loveless and unfulfilling marriage. But I'm not trapped. You're not trapped. Not that there is a way out (divorce), but we can freely choose to remain, to stand in covenant before God and man in revealing Christ to the world. When we so readily open ourselves up to divorce as an option, we reflect a world's priorities of happiness and contentment before our devotion to our Maker and His very clear will in this matter. His commands are NOT burdensome, they are for our best. Staying married is for our best in Him. And we can trust and rely on that. God is for us. He lovingly lays out a path for us to follow and all we need to do is TRUST. Wait on the Lord. Pray on the Lord. And act on His word, in ways that reveal His light and His significance, that our Father in heaven would be seen and praised.

I just want to encourage those of you with fighting despair and weariness in your marriages. God can redeem your marriages. God can change hearts and work miracles. He does it every day. His power is at work in us, in our spouses. And it is the same power that raised Christ from the dead. It is the same power that created the universe. And it is the same power that cleansed us and guarantees us a place with Him in heaven. Our God is all about reconciliation. He reconciled us to Himself in an unprecedented act of love. He desires reconciliation in your marriage, and He desires that you desire it too. Whether or not your spouse has broken covenant. It's not a tit for tat. You look at the story of God's interaction with His people and it is clear, the covenant He calls us to as believers is that of forbearance and forgiveness, of faithfulness even in the face of faithlessness. When we act in this way, we show that we are aliens and strangers in this world, operating by a different code, a different set of priorities. I pray that God would reveal Himself in lives that bring attention to His love, His faithfulness, His mercies as His Spirit enables us to walk the difficult and often painful path of obedience. Marriage is hard. But God's grace is sufficient.

Sorry God didn't call me to be my soon to be ex husband's patsy for a purpose; in fact putting up with abuse is foolish...and has nothing to do with a greater purpose...

I think you need to stop making suppositions and offerING hollow platitudes to hurting people...think a little bit.

 

[eatenbylocusts]

I understand where each of you is coming from, but we have differing perspectives on suffering and sacrificing.

No, you don't. You're not even trying to understand. Your mind is made up. If we are supposed to treat our bodies as the temple God resides in which means to keep that healthy; why is it ok to allow someone else to destroy that temple just because you're married? One of the marks of maturity that sometimes comes with age is being able to empathize with someone on a situation that you have never been in. You are not even trying. You haven't experienced what many have, but you assume that the answer for all of us is the same.

Even if God's will was for us to suffer at the hands of our ex spouses, are you really saying you think it's ok for kids to be subjected to the physical and emotional abuse that is being dished out? Even if you forget about the scars that is going to leave, if the kids are taking away by social services, what was the benefit in staying?

And you are mistaking what God wants us to do as a promise. God hates divorce. That is not a promise that you won't experience a divorce if you pray hard enough. God never promised that. You seem to forget that the other person has free will and people do astounding, evil things that they sometimes don't even understand.

 

[Johnnz]

As much as I want to believe that God will always answer sincere prayers the fact is that God Himself has given us freedom of choice that even He will not override. Every person in Hell testifies that God was unable to change their hearts.

I believe in both the importance of the marriage covenant and freedom of choice. Consequently there can come a time when one party decides they do not have a marriage worthy of that title. That is a decision only that person can make. Against that, when divorce rates amongst Christians is running at pretty much the same level as non Christian society, we need to be thinking through a lot of issues. Something very fundamental is just not falling into place. And when selfishness, abusiveness, control, manipulation, emotional withdrawal and intolerance are there so often amongst Christian couples then the reality of Christ's life is being deeply missed by many.

John
NZ

 

[dayknee]

I think, for me, it came down to understanding biblically what a marriage is. What is a marriage? According to Gods word? When one person is not living in the marriage and doing their own things outside of Gods word, what happens to the spouse that is inline with Gods word.
God hates divorce, yes. But there is also a provision there for extreme reasons. Ultimately reconcilliation is suggested but not always warrented.
Im filing for divorce. Not becuase of physical infidelity but becuase of pornography abuse ( ten years of it) and becuase of sexual realtions online with other women, AND becuase of emotional abuse. I've endured enough. I am a child of God and my savior loves me no matter what I do. I am a firm believe that my estranged husband left this marriage. He has no intentions of changing. I have no intentions of continuing to put my children in the middle of it and allowing them to continually be hurt by the situation. This is no home life for them. The anger and animosity towards eachother is unbearable. My children need to realize and see that this is NOT what a biblical marriage is. I do not want my son emulating his fathers behavior towards women and I certainly do not want my daughter marrying someone like her father. IF i stay that is what will happen. If I leave, I have a chance to teach my children by example what love is and what a marriage is. I did not give up on my covenent...he did. and he made it very clear he is not about to change who he is. I cannot continue to allow him to sin in my home where it affects my children.
Im so glad for the grace and mercy of my savior.

 

[5kidsdad]

In my case, as I can only speak of my case, I am still trying to figure out what I am going to do. This is not our first separation. This is not the first time she has had "Feelings" for another man since we have been married, and this is, to my knowledge, she has had a physical affair with someone else. Part of me says to reconcile, for the kids sake. The other part says to let her go. I have been many things over the years, from minister, youth pastor, ironically a marrieds minister, etc. I have a pretty fair grasp of the Bible, and know that I am free to divorce her. I also realize that others in my situation have worked HARD to put their relationship back together. I am not sure what I am going to do. I know that God is able to heal, but the deception is so deep, and twisted, and she can't tell the truth now if her life depended on it. I respect anyones views on here, but let's remember one thing please. Not everyones situation is the same as someone elses. What may be acceptable fcor our brother might not be God's will for our sister. To slightly redirect a quote from the Bible, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." In other words, we all need to seek His will and His direction for each of our lives. If we feel God directing us to reconcile, then we best reconcile. If we feel that God is showing us a direction toward divorce, dissolution, then there is our answer. I, for one, am still praying. If I left it up to my carnal mind, well, I think we all know what I might have done by now.

Thanks for letting me ramble! God bless you all.

5kidsdad

 

[DZoolander]

This is not our first separation. This is not the first time she has had "Feelings" for another man since we have been married, and this is, to my knowledge, she has had a physical affair with someone else. Part of me says to reconcile, for the kids sake. The other part says to let her go.

The main thing I would take into account in that would be (in the event that she's talking/considering reconciliation):

• If things had gone well with her and the guy - would she still be together with him? Would she still be as receptive to reconciliation?

If your heart tells you no - then most likely - the reason she's receptive to reconciliation is because she's afraid of having made a mistake and ending up alone. Reconciliation due to fear of solitude is not true reconciliation...it's simply playing it safe.

...until you find the right one...and let the search commence again.

Ya know?

I have been many things over the years, from minister, youth pastor, ironically a marrieds minister, etc.

A marriage minister is just as capable of losing a marriage as the average person...due to one simple fact...

...Successful marriage reconciliation does not hinge upon the skill of one party...but rather the sincerity of both parties involved.

Only you can answer how sincere you believe any reconciliation effort on her part to be.

Just some stuff to keep in mind.

 

[leadinglady311]

God is good and merciful and when we develop a mature understanding of 'HIS ways are not our ways', it helps you get through that minute, that hour and eventually that day. I was just served with divorce papers by my cheating husband. Again as stated above, HE broke the covenant multiple times and I still forgave him. What does God have for me? I have no idea but I know that I have put my faith in my husbands hands, the courts hands, the therapist hands and countless friends and they have all let me down. When I finally surrendered the situation to God, I have a peace within me so strong that nothing else that comes my way will rock me. I stand on the promises of God that whatever I desire in my heart and ask for in his name he shall grant me and no good thing will he with hold from me. I am praying for peace in my home, the continued health and peace within for my children and if it is God's will for my husband to return and concede to GOD'S will, not mine, then so be it.

I too married for life and I know God honors that. HE will see us through this. ALL of this. This is a beacon of hope for us to be able to not only vent but to see that God is still on the throne and no weapon formed against against will prosper. I pray each and every one of your strength and please do the same for me. I came tooooo far from where I started from to turn back now and what a wonderful feeling to know that I am not doing this alone and the one who is beside me all the way has my best interest in heart and HE will not let me fail. We are victorious and God will get the glory in the end.

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

I understand where each of you is coming from, but we have differing perspectives on suffering and sacrificing. I believe that sacrifices I make in honoring and elevating God in my life are gain. I show God to be supreme in my life when I trust Him. When I walk in His ways and not my own. And sometimes that defies human and worldly logic. There is a deeper joy to be had in obedience than there could ever be in pure circumstances...because we know that God is being seen, and His supremacy in our lives is being attested to. When God says that what God has united let man not separate, I take Him at His Word. When He says to take joy in trials of many kinds because the testing of my faith develops perseverance, I try and pray for that through the pain. Because I believe in a sovereign God who works good even through the most painful events of our lives.

This separation with my wife is NOT my choice. My marriage has been the most painful 2 years of my life. The flesh in me cries out for relief from this acute pain, but I'm trying to stand for my covenant. And the only way I can do that is by relying and trusting in God's purpose here. It strikes me as fairly ironic when people pray for discernment over God's will in their marriage...for divorce or restoration. What I believe is really being said is, "I don't want to believe God's will for marriage as explicitly laid out in His Word, so I am going to try and convince myself that His will for me could actually run contrary to His expressed Word." How could that even be possible? God's Word is His will. We KNOW God's will for marriage. We either believe it and walk in it, or we don't. And when we don't there is grace. This isn't a case of standing in judgement on those who have opted for divorce. It is a case of encouraging those who are contemplating it, and spurring them on to place their trust in God and in His desire for their marriage, which is NOT divorce. How can you look at the Word of God and not believe that to be the case?

We are becoming a generation of believers that place their own security and comfort ahead of our call to obedience on the justification that God would not want us to suffer. That's just not Biblical. If you truly believe we are called to be imitators of Christ, how could you possibly believe that our lives are to be lived according to self-will, self-plans, and self-gratification? That wasn't how Christ lived. He surrendered Himself to His Father's will. And He endured countless atrocities and suffering in the path of obedience. And He promised us the same. He endured it all for the joy set before Him. And so can we. And there is no greater testimony of God that we could possibly give to the world than to follow Him, even at great cost to ourselves. So do I understand why Christian couples are driven to divorce at the same rates as unbelievers? Yes. Marriage is hard. Some marriages are deeply painful and shattering. But I also know we are called to not conform to the patterns of this world, but be transformed through the renewing of our minds. We should not value the same things as the world. We should not fear the same things they do. And our lives should LIVE THAT OUT! My troubled marriage is not a hardship but an opportunity to testify to the surpassing treasure that is my Lord and Savior, in following Him, trusting Him, and finding joy in Him when it is scarce pretty much every where else.

EZoolander, if my wife divorces me, I'm not sure where that puts me. By God's grace I hope I will still be praying for a reconciliation. If she remarries than I think my situation changes. I haven't really delved into the Scripture so much in that. I am trying to live in the here and now, and fight for this marriage as best I can, pray for this marriage, and trust that whatever she chooses, my God is good and has good plans for my life, plans to comfort me with His love and goodness all the days of my life.

I don't even know if Muel is still around at this point - I haven't been on much lately and overlooked this post.

Muel, I'm interested in your opinion of what MY priority should be - I got married 2 years ago, and into this marriage I brought my 3 children who are from a prior marriage. My husband turned out to be an alcoholic, porn-addicted, chronically unemployed wreaker of havoc who left the household of his own accord and later revealed his infidelities.

To whom do I have the highest obligation - the new husband and the marriage covenant, which he has clearly violated, or to my children for whom I am responsible before the Lord?

I chose my children - and my pastor, an ultra-conservative Southern Baptist, did not disagree. My divorce will be final next week, and I praise the Lord for bringing into the light that which was done in darkness and revealing that I had biblical grounds to seek divorce.

I'm not celebrating, but I'm most decidedly at peace.