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What Gamergate should have taught us about the 'alt-right'

Gadarene

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I meant taking on AAA for getting in bed with journalists in the way that they've gone after indies for getting in bed with journalists.

Goodness, this is like shrinking the goalposts in particular ^_^

Am I speaking English? This really isn't hard to understand. If GG wants to tackle multiple issues, fine. My point the entire time is that they ought to be even-handed about it - if they're going to attack indies for, say, buying off journalists, then they should attack AAA devs for doing it, too. And if they only target small, insignificant, often feminist indies and ignore all the AAA devs that cater to the stereotypical dudebro demographic, then it's hard to buy the "journalistic ethics" excuse.

More of the same what? More of the same articles that deal with issues other than the one I'm talking about? If they're so plentiful, you ought to be able to at least give me a thread title, if not an actual link.

Not likely, given that they do not have the same rules on swearing there as here and any well-trafficked thread will invariably contain swears. I wasn't born yesterday.

Search for a games company, sort results by top. Top 5-ish results on terms like EA, Call of Duty, Activision, Ubisoft etc. will contain a highly upvoted story regarding some review conflict of interest. This really isn't hard.

I did find this, which details the sorts of things I was referring to.
3 Ways Game Reviewers Are Bribed To Lie To You

That story has 13 comments - not the sort of outrage I would expect from folks concerned about journalistic ethics.

A general interest listicle that most of the posters there already agree with? Yeah, can't imagine why that isn't blowing up the board.
 
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Paidiske

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Society would certainly be a lot better off without feminism.

But all one need do is keep debating it.

That won't end feminism as long as the basic need for it is still there. And - internet spats in tiny subcultures completely aside - the need is still there.

Modern feminism?

Getting hysterical over how men speak, how men sit? That every little thing from video games to men walking past you in the street is all part of some big scheme for men to oppress and/or rape you?

The thing is that these are not the big issues in feminism. Poverty and its disproportionate impact worldwide, access to education, access to employment (and not having that adversely impacted by childbearing), the ability to interact as an equal in all areas of society... those are the big issues which we're still working on.

The rest is relatively small fry; maybe relevant and much commented-on because it's all part of the same social context, but if mansplaining and manspreading were the worst issues we had to deal with then I doubt anyone would be having this kind of conversation.

I think - a bit like GG, really - when talking about feminism it's worth noting that it's a very diverse movement and that one feminist is writing or talking about one thing doesn't characterise the movement as a whole (or make the movement as a whole hypocritical).
 
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Gadarene

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That won't end feminism as long as the basic need for it is still there. And - internet spats in tiny subcultures completely aside - the need is still there.

If one takes people's stated goals at face value, then for the most part we all do want the same thing - equality. But feminism is not simply wanting equality. Ultimately the differences arise over methodology, what issues are affecting people and how to analyse those issues. As I have said, (my) antifeminism is not out of a desire for inequality but it is also motivated by equality.

Now, to some extent I'm happy to debate those differences in methodology etc out. I get the feeling however the other side of the aisle from me does not see things the same way, and that is what motivates a lot of my harshest criticism of them.

(This debate is not simply limited to gaming, btw. As I pointed out in my review of the original Guardian piece, these sorts of spats are occuring in multiple arenas. Different hobbies - different sectors too, if you think about these debates occuring increasingly within academia, for example.)

The thing is that these are not the big issues in feminism.

They worry about them enough to earn the comparison with moral panic.

The rest is relatively small fry; maybe relevant and much commented-on because it's all part of the same social context, but if mansplaining and manspreading were the worst issues we had to deal with then I doubt anyone would be having this kind of conversation.

I am wondering why there is so much discussion of them at all when those much bigger issues exist. (And yes, GG is no better in that regard, but then I've never claimed it to be)

I think - a bit like GG, really - when talking about feminism it's worth noting that it's a very diverse movement and that one feminist is writing or talking about one thing doesn't characterise the movement as a whole (or make the movement as a whole hypocritical).

Most of the things I've stated haven't been just one feminist's opinion, and much like with AGG, it is the journalists and influential people within the movement that are driving these ideas.

Ultimately, I don't really care too much if I am generalising feminism as a movement. The problem was never the generalising in and of itself. It is the generalising with a view to using that generalisation to justify restricting the expression of their critics that is the problem. I have no desire to stop feminists talking. It is by letting feminists talk that feminism as it currently exists will end. It is therefore of no consequence that I don't personally care to resolve the various nuances of feminism. Enough of it is problematic, it is typically fundamentally quite wrong from a conceptual point of view, I don't affiliate with it, and I choose to oppose it, and that is enough for me.

As I said, I don't expect people to like me, GG, the MRM, antifeminism, or whatever I personally affiliate with and/or choose to defend. What I do expect is for critical voices, including mine, to be allowed to speak, at the very least in a similar fashion to how my opponents do. When feminist generalisations of their critics are being used to silence, that's a much bigger problem than someone generalising feminism but with no intention of trying to shut them up.

I am under no obligation to refrain from generalisation of political views I don't like, but I respect their fundamental right to exist.
 
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Gadarene

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That won't end feminism as long as the basic need for it is still there. And - internet spats in tiny subcultures completely aside - the need is still there.

Sorry for the double post - I also meant to add - my comment was really intended as an affirmation that I (unlike so many feminists and progressives) have no intention of censoring or threatening my opponents. I simply have no need or desire to. Debate is sufficent for my aims.
 
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TerranceL

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I disagree. Again, just because its not criminal behaviour, doesn't mean that behaviour is "fine".

I think that behaviour that results in an FBI investigation, even if no charges are ever laid, is not fine.
FBI investigated because there were claims of behaviour and after 2 years decided that those claims were false.

I think that doxxing, targeted 24/7 harassment and the attempted hounding of certain individuals off social media, aren't fine.
I agree those things aren't fine. I just find it curious that that behavior is only condemned when the people being attacked aren't GG.

I think that death threats, shooting threats, bomb threats and SWATting are not fine.

I don't think this is fine:

https://i0.wp.com/www.gameobjective.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/letter2.png
The amount of meme's in that... geez I'd forgotten about this. You don't know this was deemed not an actual threat right?
 
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iluvatar5150

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Goodness, this is like shrinking the goalposts in particular ^_^

I've never moved the goalposts. Repeating that without further justifying your claims will constitute goading.

Not likely, given that they do not have the same rules on swearing there as here and any well-trafficked thread will invariably contain swears. I wasn't born yesterday.

Search for a games company, sort results by top. Top 5-ish results on terms like EA, Call of Duty, Activision, Ubisoft etc. will contain a highly upvoted story regarding some review conflict of interest. This really isn't hard.

Fair enough - if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. And it certainly does appear that the topic of AAA journalism has gotten more traction than I'd been aware of.
 
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Gadarene

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Fair enough - if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. And it certainly does appear that the topic of AAA journalism has gotten more traction than I'd been aware of.

Sure.

Look, 'ethics in game journalism' is definitely not their only concern. And if you go by all time upvote figures, AAA is not their primary concern.

I would call them an antiprogressive movement fundamentally, which in itself isn't a problem, but people claiming that GG doesn't really touch the AAA interaction with gaming journalists is a pretty common mistake made when discussing GG.

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Skavau

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Sure.

Look, 'ethics in game journalism' is definitely not their only concern. And if you go by all time upvote figures, AAA is not their primary concern.

I would call them an antiprogressive movement fundamentally, which in itself isn't a problem, but people claiming that GG doesn't really touch the AAA interaction with gaming journalists is a pretty common mistake made when discussing GG.

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I'd call it more an anti-authoritarian movement.
 
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Skavau

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To some extent. A lot of them seemed to have supported Trump, which as antiauthoritarianism goes is a bit of a fail

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It's a fail, agreed. But that's in part, part of its implicit anti-establishment ethos. Clinton was the establishment, the media was behind her, said stupid stuff about Pepe, and actually made a fair amount of "how do you do fellow kids" blunders.
 
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Gadarene

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It's a fail, agreed. But that's in part, part of its implicit anti-establishment ethos. Clinton was the establishment, the media was behind her, said stupid stuff about Pepe, and actually made a fair amount of "how do you do fellow kids" blunders.
At that point, much like with Brexit, they've passed from antiestablishmentarianism to what may as well be political nihilism.

We get the point now. The trolling and dismissiveness should have stopped around the time Trump was getting the GOP nomination.

While AGG and other progressives contributed to this as I've outlined in a few posts, GGers are ultimately responsible for their own fail here.

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Skavau

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At that point, much like with Brexit, they've passed from antiestablishmentarianism to what may as well be political nihilism.

We get the point now. The trolling and dismissiveness should have stopped around the time Trump was getting the GOP nomination.

While AGG and other progressives contributed to this as I've outlined in a few posts, GGers are ultimately responsible for their own fail here.

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Much like SRS trolls, there's such a thing as becoming the mask. For when you gaze too long into the abyss, the abyss gazes back.
 
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