what free will is and is not

Bushido216 · Nov 5, 2011

That being said, in bricklayer's defense, what he's saying is actually fairly articulate.

What he's suggesting is that our freedom of will isn't necessary. Instead, it is contingent on the freedom of will of God. So, while our wills are free to do this or that, that is only the case because God provides the necessary conditions. In other words, our free will relies on God, rather than being constrained by Him.

That's the argument you should be arguing for or against.

bricklayer · Nov 6, 2011

God does not come to know our free will choices; we do.

Bushido216 · Nov 6, 2011

Yes... I know... I just laid out your argument better than you did.

bricklayer · Nov 6, 2011

Bushido216 said:
Yes... I know... I just laid out your argument better than you did.

You did. I wasn't addressing you; we agree.

Bushido216 · Nov 7, 2011

Copy all.

juvenissun · Nov 7, 2011

sandwiches said:
Why does/did God think of rape, murder, pedophilia, or slavery?

Do you mean how does God "know" what they are?

juvenissun · Nov 7, 2011

Gracchus said:
If what we choose is a consequence of our nature and nurture, then do we have free will? I have said it before and I'll say it again: Some people have to believe in free will, but I choose not to.

If free will did not exist, than what kind of will exists?

sandwiches · Nov 7, 2011

juvenissun said:
Do you mean how does God "know" what they are?

No. I meant exactly what I said.

I will requote and emphasize:

bricklayer said:
God is the conceiver of all ideas; man is a perceiver of ideas. One of the most significant differences between God's ideas and man's ideas is the fact that we are not the first ones to have our ideas.

So, going by that God must have also conceived the idea of rape, murder, etc.

bricklayer · Nov 7, 2011

sandwiches said:
No. I meant exactly what I said.

I will requote and emphasize:

So, going by that God must have also conceived the idea of rape, murder, etc.

Yes. God did not come to know those ideas.
God chose to create a creation with sin and salvation fron sin, with life and death.
This is exactly the creation God chose to create, knowing it exhaustively apart from its existence.

sandwiches · Nov 7, 2011

bricklayer said:
Yes. God did not come to know those ideas.
God chose to create a creation with sin and salvation fron sin, with life and death.
This is exactly the creation God chose to create, knowing it exhaustively apart from its existence.

So, God didn't conceive all ideas as you first claimed, then, after all. What other ideas did God not conceive and why did you backpedal on your initial claim?

juvenissun · Nov 8, 2011

sandwiches said:
No. I meant exactly what I said.

I will requote and emphasize:

So, going by that God must have also conceived the idea of rape, murder, etc.

These are possible behaviors of human. We do not need to know the idea. We can simply act them out. And that was how they started.

So, what is the point?

bricklayer · Nov 8, 2011

sandwiches said:
So, God didn't conceive all ideas as you first claimed, then, after all. What other ideas did God not conceive and why did you backpedal on your initial claim?

You misread my post.
I said, yes. God does not come to know anything.
God does not have intellectual perceptions.
All of God's ideas are intellectual conceptions.
All ideas are first conceived by God; they are God's intellectual conceptions.
Man cannot have an idea that is not eternally present in the mind of God.
Man cannot conceive of ideas; we merely perceive concepts.

One of the most significant differences between God's ideas and our ideas is that we are not the first ones to have our ideas.

quatona · Nov 9, 2011

bricklayer said:
You misread my post.
I said, yes. God does not come to know anything.
God does not have intellectual perceptions.
All of God's ideas are intellectual conceptions.
All ideas are first conceived by God; they are God's intellectual conceptions.
Man cannot have an idea that is not eternally present in the mind of God.
Man cannot conceive of ideas; we merely perceive concepts.

I still understand this to say that evil ideas are conceived by God, and we merely perceive God´s ideas.

One of the most significant differences between God's ideas and our ideas is that we are not the first ones to have our ideas.

Does this mean that god had our ideas first, or does it mean something else?
By "have" - do you mean "conceive" or "perceive"? First you put great importance in this distinction, and now you seem to ignore this difference.

kvnchrist · Nov 9, 2011

With the sinful nature of man, I hardly think that all are imaginings have been previously thought of by God. If that's what you mean. I've heard of some very disgusting ideas that people have put into some very extreme porno flicks.

sandwiches · Nov 9, 2011

juvenissun said:
These are possible behaviors of human. We do not need to know the idea. We can simply act them out. And that was how they started.

I've no idea what this means.

juvenissun said:
So, what is the point?

The point is bricklayer claimed that humans cannot have an original thought. Every possible thought has been conceived by God. Therefore, God must have thought of every single horrible thing humans eventually thought of, as well. So, why did God think those horrible things?

bricklayer · Nov 9, 2011

quatona said:
I still understand this to say that evil ideas are conceived by God, and we merely perceive God´s ideas.

Does this mean that god had our ideas first, or does it mean something else?
By "have" - do you mean "conceive" or "perceive"? First you put great importance in this distinction, and now you seem to ignore this difference.

There are two types of ideas: intellectual conceptions and intellectual perceptions.
All of God 's ideas are intellectual conceptions.
All ideas are God's intellectual conceptions.

Man is a perceiver. Man cannot conceive ideas.

Reasoning is the ontological sequencing of ideas.
God's reasoning ontologically sequences eternally present intellectual conceptions.
Man's reasoning ontologically sequences a chronological sequence of intellectual perceptions.

quatona · Nov 10, 2011

bricklayer said:
There are two types of ideas: intellectual conceptions and intellectual perceptions.
All of God 's ideas are intellectual conceptions.
All ideas are God's intellectual conceptions.

Man is a perceiver. Man cannot conceive ideas.

Reasoning is the ontological sequencing of ideas.
God's reasoning ontologically sequences eternally present intellectual conceptions.
Man's reasoning ontologically sequences a chronological sequence of intellectual perceptions.

Still can´t see how the conclusion "All ideas (including the evil ones) are conceived by God"" would be a misinterpretation of what you say. Please explain (instead of repeating the same thing over and over).

juvenissun · Nov 11, 2011

sandwiches said:
I've no idea what this means.

The point is bricklayer claimed that humans cannot have an original thought. Every possible thought has been conceived by God. Therefore, God must have thought of every single horrible thing humans eventually thought of, as well. So, why did God think those horrible things?

What I said was: These horrible things "happened". We don't have to think about them or to know the bad to act them out.

God sees our actions. God does not have to be evil so to make us do evil. God does not need to put evil in our mind. On the contrary, God explicitly tells Adam: DON'T eat that fruit. It does not mean the fruit is evil. God simply says: don't eat it. If Adam does not have a free will, how could he eat it?

bricklayer · Nov 11, 2011

Evil is not in and of itself a "thing". Evil is a privation of good.
God is good. God cannot be evil because God cannot be apart fro Himself.

Every idea, even the ideas that are unlike God, the evil ideas, are originally conceived by God. This matter-space-time continuum is exactly the creation God chose to create, with exactly this combination of our perceptions of His concepts. There is nothing left to "chance"; there is no such thing as "chance". God does not come to know our intellectual perceptions; we do. Evil ideas do not dawn on God; they dawn on us.

Not only are all ideas God's intellectual conceptions; all of God's ideas are necessary. One can say that all of God's ideas are presuppositions.
All reasoning is presuppositional; one must employ presuppositional reasoning to deny presuppositional reasoning. Any explicit attempts to deny it implicitly affirms it.

quatona · Nov 11, 2011

bricklayer said:
Every idea, even the ideas that are unlike God, the evil ideas, are originally conceived by God.

Ok - it just seemed that you were calling this a misrepresentation in your previous posts.
Glad it´s got clarified.

what free will is and is not

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... and God saw that it was good.

... and God saw that it was good.

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.

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Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.

... and God saw that it was good.

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"God"? What do you mean??

kvnchrist

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Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.

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"God"? What do you mean??

... and God saw that it was good.

Well-Known Member

"God"? What do you mean??

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