What exactly is the problem?

[Nadiine]

Wow, I've never run across that attitude, and I live in a pretty conservative community (I have children myself, but my closest friend does not).

God does not wish us to live selfish, self-centered lives - perhaps some Christians mistakenly assume that people who do not have children are self-centered? I've met many giving, loving people, supportive of their community, their church, and those less fortunate than themselves who have not had children. And, sadly, I've met cold and self-involved women and men with large (and I fear unhappy) families.

Having a child should never be undertaken lightly - it is a burden, a joyful burden to many (including myself), but with any burden you must consider first whether you are called to bear it. There are many ways to serve our Lord and live a life of faith.

I haven't met any of these people either - and that is my circle lol

I also don't have any kids, so this is news to me really.


And if people want to judge me for not having any, go right ahead
folks. I don't owe them reasons for why I am not having any -
for all they know, we physically cannot have any, what business
is it of theirs or anyone elses?

I agree too that it's almost a shame that some people DO have kids
with how they raise them and act.

With that said, here's my perspective on it, God will give you the
desire of your heart that matches His will - for those who have
no interest in children for whatever the reasons, it's pretty
clear to me that it's not what God is leading them into.

In my case, I do not really like children and I don't want any and never
have. I can't even relate to them - get me around an animal
and I turn into the pied piper... if I had a rapport with kids like
I do animals, I might of had a whole nursery full of children.

Not everyone feels it's God's calling - just like it's not God's calling
for all to marry.

But seriously, for those who judge people like me who don't have
any, it's just as important not to judge THEM and attack them
for how they view it.
I don't like or enjoy it if people are doing it, but if they are my
actual family in Christ, I'm called to forgive that of them too.

It works both ways.

 

[Nadiine]

Nice attempt at sarcasm and if you go back and ready my post you'll find no judgement. I have experienced the judgement firsthand though...as I was a member at a conservative fundamentalist Church for 5 1/2 years ending April 2008.


Really? Where? I recall a COMMAND from the one who bought us with his blood...

Luke 6:36 (NIV):
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
CC

You know, it's almost funny, but usually the people who have a habit of quoting that verse, are the ones doing most of the judging in my experience.

You may recall one command, but you cannot recall it to the complete
exclusion of OTHER commands given by Jesus (that enhance the teaching elsewhere).

And you may want to do some study on judging before quoting it
when it doesn't mean exactly how your'e using it.

The verse they referred to is here:
John 7:24
24"Do not judge according to appearance,
but judge with righteous judgment."

Then you can head to 1 Cor. 5
...11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders?
Do you not judge those who are within the church?

where Christians are called to judge those within the church.
Anyone calling themselves a believer is under the scrutiny of
corporate church discipline (not that everyone even goes
to church anymore tho).

So clearly, judgment is not forbidden, wrongful judgment
(condemnation and unrighteous based) is forbidden.

The full principle of wrongful judging is seen here:
Romans 2
1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

It deals with hypocrisy. Judging people for doing the same
thing you do.

So it's not wrong to say "sleeping with that girl is sinful, you
need to repent". IT IS wrong to judge someone for fornication
when you yourself are in sexual sin at the same time.

You're also condemning yourself; admitting that what you do
is evil by pointing out it's wrong for others.

 

[jparks]

But seriously, for those who judge people like me who don't have
any, it's just as important not to judge THEM and attack them
for how they view it.
I don't like or enjoy it if people are doing it, but if they are my
actual family in Christ, I'm called to forgive that of them too.

It works both ways.

That is so true, but, for me at least, so easy to forget and so hard to do. Your words are a good reminder for me, and I'll bet for many others too.

 

[chingchang]

You know, it's almost funny, but usually the people who have a habit of quoting that verse, are the ones doing most of the judging in my experience.

You know, it's almost funny, but usually the people who defend judging instead of simply obeying Christ's command to NOT judge are the ones doing most of the judging in my experience.

You may recall one command, but you cannot recall it to the complete
exclusion of OTHER commands given by Jesus (that enhance the teaching elsewhere).

Well then...how do you reconcile John 7:24 with Luke 6:37?

So clearly, judgment is not forbidden, wrongful judgment
(condemnation and unrighteous based) is forbidden.

Oh...here it is...

The full principle of wrongful judging is seen here:
Romans 2
1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

It deals with hypocrisy. Judging people for doing the same
thing you do.

So it's not wrong to say "sleeping with that girl is sinful, you
need to repent". IT IS wrong to judge someone for fornication
when you yourself are in sexual sin at the same time.

You're also condemning yourself; admitting that what you do
is evil by pointing out it's wrong for others.

So...it seems that you believe that judging is o.k. within the Church as long as you're not doing the act/thing that you are judging the other person for? I believe that Jesus will judge us all one day...I'd like to leave all judging to him. I might be living a more "Christian" life of purity and obedience than the guy next to me...but I won't judge him because I'm not perfect either. Who am I but a sinner in need of mercy? How can I judge with 'righteous judgement' if I'm not righteous?

CC

 

[Nadiine]

You know, it's almost funny, but usually the people who defend judging instead of simply obeying Christ's command to NOT judge are the ones doing most of the judging in my experience.

Try to reread my post, IT SAYS WRONGFUL JUDGING is wrong.
More importantly, are you going to ignore Jesus' direct statement to claim He's wrong in that verse?
Is Jesus WRONG cc?

I DEFEND RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT as outlined in scripture, I do NOT
defend false judgment.
Get your accusations right k?

Well then...how do you reconcile John 7:24 with Luke 6:37?

do me a favor, you quote me the verses here on the thread
instead of making me do it for you and doing the homework.
Then I'll take the time to reply to it.

So...it seems that you believe that judging is o.k. within the Church as long as you're not doing the act/thing that you are judging the other person for? I believe that Jesus will judge us all one day...I'd like to leave all judging to him. I might be living a more "Christian" life of purity and obedience than the guy next to me...but I won't judge him because I'm not perfect either. Who am I but a sinner in need of mercy? How can I judge with 'righteous judgement' if I'm not righteous?

It's clear to me that you aren't fully understanding what judging means, becuz you actually
do it all the time yourself. In fact everyone does.

Do you not "judge" that fundamenalism and fundamentalists are
wrong? You make it a continual point thruout your posts to
let us know that you came from a fundamental church, but
are against it today.
THAT is a form of judging to say they're wrong, or criticize what
they say or do or to work in opposition to them.
You are forming a judgment about them and their beliefs.

WRONGFUL judging is to attack/harm people with their sin (or assumed sin) and make it
personal against them - to say or think this way:
"look at Mrs. Smith flirting with that guy, her spiritual condition must be
messed up. I'll call the prayer chain & see if we can't have
all the prayer group pray for her marriage".

Wrongful judging is to be in sexual sin yourself, then go tell
Mrs. Smith that adultery and flirting w/ others is sinful.
AND, when it's none of your business, to go butt in and
talk to her about what you think you saw.
Or go off to gossip about someone elses sin to others which
harms their reputation or integrity.

People make judgments/assessments every day. When they
become personal to stick people into a box of your self imposed
righteousness on them, you're crossing a line.
& MOST people who are busy acting this way, have a preoccupation
with looking at others instead of looking at themselves.

They can spot OTHERS wrongs/sins/shortcomings, yet they can't
spot their own condemning hearts and sinful actions - becuz their
eyes on everyone else like a microscope.

That's the point of Jesus' message - yes, make righteous judgments,
but your eye is to be on YOURSELF and your own actions & thoughts
to judge what you say and do.

Wrongly Judgmental people tend to be the critics of all Christians as a hobby-
they stand around & watch Christians critically and find fault.
They have a spirit of finding the wrongs in others - THAT is what
wrongful judging is.
Jesus knows the spirit that's behind this and why He tells us to be more
concerned about our own error and wickedness than preoccupied with
everyone elses.

Properly identifying sin, false teaching, or calling sin what it is, is not wrong.
Alot of this amounts to what you DO with your evaluation & why you make it.

Do you inwardly pray for someone if you see them sin? Or go gossip it to others &
act like you care enough to let others know to "pray" for them?
Self righteousness is at the core of wrongful judging - motive is key.

 

[chingchang]

Try to reread my post, IT SAYS WRONGFUL JUDGING is wrong.
More importantly, are you going to ignore Jesus' direct statement to claim He's wrong in that verse?
Is Jesus WRONG cc?

Wrongful judging is wrong? That is like saying 'wronfully punching someone in the face is wrong'. Is he wrong in Luke 6:37?

I DEFEND RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT as outlined in scripture, I do NOT
defend false judgment.
Get your accusations right k?

And you have the ability to judge your Brother/Sister from a place of righteousness?

It's clear to me that you aren't fully understanding what judging means, becuz you actually
do it all the time yourself. In fact everyone does.

I think we use discernment all of the time. I discern that is is fundamentalist Christians (moreso than other flavors) that use words of judgemnet against those that don't believe what they believe (from my experience). I don't judge those that judge...I don't judge you because you don't think like I do...and I wouldn't judge you if I found out that you had sin in your life. Jesus will be the judge and those that have been appointed to judge and reign with him in the coming age (according to the Bible).

Do you not "judge" that fundamenalism and fundamentalists are
wrong? You make it a continual point thruout your posts to
let us know that you came from a fundamental church, but
are against it today.
THAT is a form of judging to say they're wrong, or criticize what
they say or do or to work in opposition to them.
You are forming a judgment about them and their beliefs.

No...I am using discernment. I don't know for sure that they are wrong...I simply believe the evidence isn't conclusive and I'd rather err on the side of liberty and love.

WRONGFUL judging is to attack/harm people with their sin (or assumed sin) and make it
personal against them - to say or think this way:
"look at Mrs. Smith flirting with that guy, her spiritual condition must be
messed up. I'll call the prayer chain & see if we can't have
all the prayer group pray for her marriage".

Yup...that is the type of judgement I've experienced with fundamentalists...in addition to gossip.

People make judgments/assessments every day. When they
become personal to stick people into a box of your self imposed
righteousness on them, you're crossing a line.
& MOST people who are busy acting this way, have a preoccupation
with looking at others instead of looking at themselves.

Yup...that is what I've experienced.

They can spot OTHERS wrongs/sins/shortcomings, yet they can't
spot their own condemning hearts and sinful actions - becuz their
eyes on everyone else like a microscope.

Yup.

That's the point of Jesus' message - yes, make righteous judgments,
but your eye is to be on YOURSELF and your own actions & thoughts
to judge what you say and do.

Sure would have been easier if he would have just said that...rather than saying "DO NOT JUDGE...".

Properly identifying sin, false teaching, or calling sin what it is, is not wrong.

Key word "Properly"...

CC

 

[Nadiine]

Wrongful judging is wrong? That is like saying 'wronfully punching someone in the face is wrong'. Is he wrong in Luke 6:37?

THIS IS DUE TO YOUR FAULTY UNDERSTANDING ABOUT JUDGING
itself.

I'll repeat myself, YOU JUDGE PEOPLE EVERY DAY. Every time you
oppose fundamental or conservative Christians, you make judgments
about them/against them.

So maybe you should wake up to your "sin" since all "judging" is wrong
and clearly to decide fundamentals are "WRONG" is a judgment against them on your part.

And you have the ability to judge your Brother/Sister from a place of righteousness?

You just made a strawman, who said we are "righteous"?
Did you even read the verse? It says use RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT,
not use your own righteousness to judge.

It says to use GOD'S RIGHTEOUS STANDARD to judge with.
Not our own righteousness (which any Christian knows they have no
righteousness of their own, it comes from Christ alone -
His righteousness OVER them).

I think we use discernment all of the time. I discern that is is fundamentalist Christians (moreso than other flavors) that use words of judgemnet against those that don't believe what they believe (from my experience).

Are you aware that the word discernment is also judge/judging/
judgment?

I don't judge those that judge...I don't judge you because you don't think like I do...and I wouldn't judge you if I found out that you had sin in your life. Jesus will be the judge and those that have been appointed to judge and reign with him in the coming age (according to the Bible).

Do you think YOU are righteous? Becuz your statement here says
you NEVER sin by judging ever judging anyone. ARe you sure about
that??

Have you read this verse?
1 Corinthians 2:15
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things,
yet he himself is judged of no man.

Notice that it says not to judge PEOPLE, but you ARE to judge
things.
I'd also note that if we're called to judge Fruit and beware of
wolves (to spot the false and know who divide from), that judging
is necessary to a degree for our own spiritual wellbeing.

No...I am using discernment. I don't know for sure that they are wrong...I simply believe the evidence isn't conclusive and I'd rather err on the side of liberty and love.

Discerning IS using judgment. to judge/evaluate/decide.

Yup...that is the type of judgement I've experienced with fundamentalists...in addition to gossip.

YOU JUST JUDGED FUNDAMENTALISTS for judging you.

well done. :o
(you never gossiped? gossipped or griped against fundamentals?)

Sure would have been easier if he would have just said that...rather than saying "DO NOT JUDGE...".

We study the Bible, I quoted what it says and gave examples
of what it means - that is not an exhaustive list of ways people
wrongly judge.

 

[savedandhappy1]

I think the idea is that those of us who have encountered this view point have found that it is unique certain very conservative Christians. While it is certainly more common in the RCC than in Protestant demoninations, I have encountered it from people in both groups, and in every case, the people espousing this view would otherwise be identified as very conservative.

Key words both groups....................and does this mean that all very conservative people do this.......................wrong!!!!!

People judge and if done biblically then that is what we are to do. Sadly alot of people don't do it that way, and I have seen just as many liberals do it as conservatives. Also, sadly it is only a sin if a conservative does it from what I have seen.

 

[savedandhappy1]

Nice attempt at sarcasm and if you go back and ready my post you'll find no judgement. I have experienced the judgement firsthand though...as I was a member at a conservative fundamentalist Church for 5 1/2 years ending April 2008.


Really? Where? I recall a COMMAND from the one who bought us with his blood...

Luke 6:36 (NIV):
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.



Wow...I'm suprised!

Hugs,
CC

Jesus also said: "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24).

We may not judge according to appearance (John 7:24). This means that we may not judge on the basis of insufficient, superficial information. Outward appearance is often deceptive. "Some men's sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgment, but those of some men follow later. Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden" (1 Timothy 5:24,25). Righteous judgment must be based on conclusive evidence. We may not judge on the basis of appearance, personal opinions or unsubstantiated suspicions.


Jesus said: "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the same measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck out of your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye" (Matthew 7:1-5).
If we condemn someone for something we do ourselves, we bring condemnation upon ourselves. "Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?" (Romans 2:1-3). "Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you" (Luke 6:36-38).

 

[savedandhappy1]

You know, it's almost funny, but usually the people who defend judging instead of simply obeying Christ's command to NOT judge are the ones doing most of the judging in my experience.



Well then...how do you reconcile John 7:24 with Luke 6:37?



Oh...here it is...

Luke 6:37-42
37 “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.”
39 And He spoke a parable to them: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch?
40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher.
41 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye?
42 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

What is so funny is that those who quote these passages don't see or either don't understand how it says to remove the plank first before judging others. It doesn't say don't judge at all.

If that were the case then the scriptures that tell us to use the verses that speak of righteous judging, and the ones who speak of using the scriptures for correction would mean that the scriptures say two different things. Judge, don't judge?????????? Which is it? Correct don't correct? Which is it?

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.



1 Tim 5:20-21
20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.

2 Tim 4:1-2
1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:
2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

Titus 1:10-16
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.
12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”
13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,
14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.
15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

Titus 2:15
15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

So...it seems that you believe that judging is o.k. within the Church as long as you're not doing the act/thing that you are judging the other person for? I believe that Jesus will judge us all one day...I'd like to leave all judging to him. I might be living a more "Christian" life of purity and obedience than the guy next to me...but I won't judge him because I'm not perfect either. Who am I but a sinner in need of mercy? How can I judge with 'righteous judgement' if I'm not righteous?

CC

Which is why the scripture you quoted tell us to remove the plank first, so we can clearly see if someone is sinning.

Are you saying that we are to obey the commandment not to judge, but not the ones that says to judge righteously, to exhort, rebuke and correct? You criticize people for not, in your eyes, obeying the do not judge scriptures without following what the scriptures really say, and state that that is not following God's commandments............. Which is judging, isn't it?

 

[Texas Lynn]

I don't know what you mean. I never heard a conservative Christian judge a couple for not having kids.

It does occur in certain sectors. The conservative writer Samuel Blumenthal makes it in his book The Retreat from Motherhood.

One finds it especially among those who disapprove of birth control. This is essentially a form of a radical pronatalism (pronatalism being the position one who has sex should always live with the risk of pregnancy regarding it). It is mentioned on certain very conservative Christian websites. The writer Nancy Leigh DeMoss articulates it.

In interpersonal interactions it occurs when some query young adults about when they will have children, and, upon receiving a response that they do not intend to, following that with a vague sense this is somehow wrong.

It does occur when mention is made of such things as higher birthrates among Muslim European immigrants versus those of Nordic Europeans or also in America in addressing the same dichotomy between whites and nonwhites.

 

[Nadiine]

I think the idea is that those of us who have encountered this view point have found that it is unique certain very conservative Christians. While it is certainly more common in the RCC than in Protestant demoninations, I have encountered it from people in both groups, and in every case, the people espousing this view would otherwise be identified as very conservative.

It's also more common to see people who aren't conservative
who dislike people having many kids.
I've also heard homosexuals (namely lesbians) call hetero women,
"breeders". (one of them was on Dr. Phil - not that I watch his show).

I thought her comment was completely rude and offensive.

So... I think there's some finger pointing that can go around in
every group if anyone wants to find people to criticize.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

I'm not doubting its occurrence, I'm just saying that I, personally, have never heard a conservative Christian judging a couple for not having children.

 

[Nadiine]

I'm not doubting its occurrence, I'm just saying that I, personally, have never heard a conservative Christian judging a couple for not having children.

yes, same here. . . and I'm one that fits into this category.
I've not heard one conservative attack me in real life or on
the net for not having any.

And in fact, in any personal dialog I've had with conservative
(Christians) on my issues w/ kids or having any, all I've gotten
was kind support and understanding from them.
Reassurance as it were.
So.......??? I dunno