What exactly is a liberal Christian?

Spaarks wrote: (#15)
"There is no such thing as a liberal Christian. You can be one or the other but not both. Sorry."

I forgive you. Good thing it's not up to you who is or isn't a Christian.
tulc (that's why we aren't called spaarkians, "little spaarks" )

fragmentsofdreams said:

Liberal Christians look at what the point of the story is and how the original audience would have received it.

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I agree. The writers, compilers, and canonizers of our scriptures were trying to communicate something to us as their spiritual descendants. If we don't understand the message as they would have understood it, we risk losing or misunderstanding that message.

For example, Genesis implies a radically different cosmology than we perceive through science. To really understand Genesis, we need to understand the writing in that context, by momentarily suspending our disbelief in that cosmology. To try to force fit Genesis into science and vice versa (i.e. "creation science") does an injustice both to modern cosmology and the knowledge communicated in Genesis.

Regarding mythology: mythology is not a low-quality story about objective truth. Mythology is an attempt to convey important truths through story, and convey them in a way that can be understood and remembered across times and cultures. Furthermore, the best myths do more than merely transmit static truths, they generate new and important truths that are relevent in contexts never envisaged by the original storytellers.

This is how liberal Christians can say the Bible is an important source of truth, while not seeing every part as factual.

-Neil

Karl - Liberal Backslider said:

Wrong.

I'm a liberal Christian because I take the Bible seriously, but not literally. All of it. I find I can't do both. When I took it literally, there were bits I had to just completely leave on the side. Now I don't have that problem - I can engage with the whole text.

Look at it this way. Christian doctrine has three pillars: Scripture, Tradition and Reason.

Protestants generally, and evangelicals and fundamentalists in particular, emphasise Scripture.

Catholics and Orthodox (and I include Anglo-Catholic and similar "wings" within otherwise Protestant groupings here) emphasise tradition.

Liberals emphasise Reason.

Each approach has its advantages and disadvantages.

The first approach tends towards phariseeism; rules of proscribed behaviour - drinking, dancing, movies, RPGs, rock music...

The second approach tends towards a difficulty in changing to adapt to changes in society and culture.

The third approach tends towards an overcritical attitude towards Scripture and Tradition.

Hence, whilst being essentially liberal, I have more than a nod towards both evangelicalism (where lie my roots) and catholicism (whence comes my preferred worship style and my context for understanding the nature of Scripture), and I wouldn't be without them.

It's really got little to do with origins. In the UK, most evangelicals are theistic evolutionists.

Interesting point though - if you ask for a Bible verse about a given topic, the evangelical will usually find something in the Epistles; the liberal from the Gospels.

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Great post, Karl!! I agree completely.

As regards the bolded line, it must be that Plan 9 has assimilated you -- that's spoken like a true Borg-ian!

Karl - Liberal Backslider said:

But this is a fallacy. Liberal Christians do not "throw out" those stories they think are not literally true (in my case, Job and Jonah both spring to mind), but rather consider them to be true in what they teach. Job, for example, does not primarily teach that there was once this bloke called Job who all these things happened to; rather it teaches about the inscrutability of God and the uselessness of conventional, pat answers from the religious.

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Why do people today think these are "teaching stories"? Convenience?

Were Adam and Eve real people? Jesus and Apostle knew them to be real people. Do they refer to Job as a fake person or someone real? God's word is the truth it is not worded to decieve.

JAS 5:9-11
Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy


The heart of the matter is so-called liberal christians do not believe that the Bible is the word of God, but rather it the message of God overall. Accordingly they provide their own editorial editing of it, to suit what makes sense to them. Faith has been replaced with what makes sense

Was Jesus a liar in this passage in which he refers to Noah and the Flood?

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

What is a liberal Christian? Good question. Unfortunately, I can no more tell you what a liberal Christian is than I can tell you what a conservative Christian is. As you can see, everyone has different definitions and they'll never agree with each other. So, either you can say a liberal Christian is someone who values the Bible, throws out the Bible, picks and chooses from the Bible, is greedy, heartless and has a bleeding heart. Is compassionate, loving, is a fascist, a communist, a Democrat, a humanist, a secularist, a pagan, an irrational person who uses reason and logic, a purple people eater. Is charismatic, evangelical, a fence-sitter, blind and devious. Seeks out truth and tells lies. Has strong morals, loose morals, no morals, follows Jesus and is a tool of Satan. Or, you can just follow tulc's advice, call Christians, Christians and leave it at that.

Hmmmmm, thanks to all the fundies for being the ultimate judge of what a Christian can and can't be. It's not up to you to determine if one can be liberal and Christian. No matter what you think. In all that I do, I ask for forgiveness if I do sin in practicing what I think is right, because we are so far from knowing the truth, and so helpless in the world that only God can save us. I suggest you do the same regardless of your personal convictions. You can't be wrong in doing that. Guaranteed.

I resent the conservatives who say that you can't be liberal and Christian. I resent the liberals who claim that they truly follow the Bible, and conservatives really don't. I'm a liberal, maybe because I love everyone? I don't know, it just feels right I guess, and maybe that'll change, but for right now that's how it is right now.

catch22 said:

liberal and christian don't belong together in a sentence if you ask me. Conservative and christian on the other hand....yes.

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You obviously don't know a lot about Christianity, then. Christ is pretty much the founder of liberalism.

Northern Christian said:

Is there anything to being a liberal Christian other than being a theistic evolutionist instead of a YEC?

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I'm not really familiar with the YECers so I couldn't speak on that topic. Generally liberal Christians see no conflict between believing the theory of evolution is likely to be true and worshiping God but beyond that I couldn't say.

There are several aspects of liberalism and not every liberal has every one of them just like every conservative does not have every aspect of conservatism. But some of these other aspects are:

1. A non-literal interpretation of scripture and wisdom
2. Tolerance for social diversity; in some case celebration of it
3. A tendency toward Universalism
4. Concern for the poor, opprressed (Matthew 5:4)
5. Opposition to state-imposed religion and support for religious freedom
6. Respect for the individual believer over a church hierarchy
7. Opposition to ritual in general among traditionalistic believers like Catholics and Episcopals; however, in some cases, the opposite may be true to churches with less structure to worship. Kind of a weird conundrum--I mean "contemporary services" are loved by more fundamentalist sorts but loathed by liberals often. Someone once said on this board Pentecostals were 'liberals"-not in my experience, but, compared to Baptists, maybe.
8. Acceptance of others despite their sins---a major cultural divide was evident over President Clinton's adulterous actions-a lot of liberals shrugged but conservatives like D. James Kennedy wanted him to resign.

There's probably more but that's it for now.

Anthony said:

Liberal Christians are Burger King Christians; You know have it your way. They pick and chose those parts they like and throw out the rest.

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Conservative Christians do exactly the same thing, except they claim they don't.

Karl - Liberal Backslider said:

Wrong.

I'm a liberal Christian because I take the Bible seriously, but not literally. All of it. I find I can't do both. When I took it literally, there were bits I had to just completely leave on the side. Now I don't have that problem - I can engage with the whole text.

Look at it this way. Christian doctrine has three pillars: Scripture, Tradition and Reason.

Protestants generally, and evangelicals and fundamentalists in particular, emphasise Scripture.

Catholics and Orthodox (and I include Anglo-Catholic and similar "wings" within otherwise Protestant groupings here) emphasise tradition.

Liberals emphasise Reason.

Each approach has its advantages and disadvantages.

The first approach tends towards phariseeism; rules of proscribed behaviour - drinking, dancing, movies, RPGs, rock music...

The second approach tends towards a difficulty in changing to adapt to changes in society and culture.

The third approach tends towards an overcritical attitude towards Scripture and Tradition.

Hence, whilst being essentially liberal, I have more than a nod towards both evangelicalism (where lie my roots) and catholicism (whence comes my preferred worship style and my context for understanding the nature of Scripture), and I wouldn't be without them.

It's really got little to do with origins. In the UK, most evangelicals are theistic evolutionists.

Interesting point though - if you ask for a Bible verse about a given topic, the evangelical will usually find something in the Epistles; the liberal from the Gospels.

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Excellent post, Karl.

TScott said:

What exactly is a liberal Christian?

An Episcopalian?

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In many cases, members of the Mainline Protestant Churches (Episcopals, Methodists, Presbyterians, Disciples of Christ [also called the Christian Church but not be confused with the very conservative Church of Christ or Campbellites], Lutherans, United Church of Christ, United Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and several others) are liberal. But many of these have strong conservative factions. My father-in-law is a liberal Methodist minister. He has a guy in his church who is his "cross to bear" as it is, a conservative malcontent who loves the Lord but has a hard time loving his people. The Dude does stuff like gripe to Dad about how the Methodist Board of Social Concerns provided an attorney for Elian Gonzales' father

fragmentsofdreams said:

I would also like to add that liberal Christians tend to see doubts as opportunities to grow in faith rather than signs of weakness.

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A most excellent point, FoD!

Anthony said:

Liberal Christians for a starters, take many of the Bible Stories as myths and fables. This is the part they throw out.

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To insist such tales as Adam and Eve are literally true is to not see the forest for the trees. To liberal Christians such as myself our minds demand we accept that the literalness of such a tale is quite doubtful, but the moral lesson involved is what counts. Had Christianity stemmed from Graecoroman tradition rather than the Hebrew, no doubt fundamentalists today would insist if you don't do what they say Zeus will fling a thunderbolt and zap you in the posterior with it, and teens developing awareness of sexuality will be visited by satyrs and nymphs.

Spaarks said:

There is no such thing as a liberal Christian. You can be one or the other but not both. Sorry.

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Shame. Your cruel and intemperate post was reported.

Anthony said:

Why do people today think these are "teaching stories"? Convenience?

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Why wouldn't they be? What's convenient about it?

Were Adam and Eve real people?

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Who knows? Real Neanderthals, perhaps.

Jesus and Apostle knew them to be real people.

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Sorry, that's impossible except when considering Christ as a part of the godhead being omniscient. They were not contemporaneous so they couldn't have. There's zero evidence to support that.

Do they refer to Job as a fake person or someone real?

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???

God's word is the truth it is not worded to decieve.

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Okay.

JAS 5:9-11 Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy

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That says nothing about whether or not Jim believed in Job having been a real person. One could just as eaily say today "Remember when Elvis said 'drinks on me!' in Jailhouse Rock?" That was a movie. Fiction is often a metaphor for truth. Doesn't mean it's bad if it's fictitious.

The heart of the matter is so-called liberal christians do not believe that the Bible is the word of God, but rather it the message of God overall. Accordingly they provide their own editorial editing of it, to suit what makes sense to them. Faith has been replaced with what makes sense

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Conservatives do exactly the same thing.

Was Jesus a liar in this passage in which he refers to Noah and the Flood?

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

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No he was speaking metaphorically, quite obviously. Just like Daddy Bush did when he said "Read my lips, no new taxes" (well, unlike Christ, Bush was lying, but nobody thought he was saying he believed Harry Callahan was a real person just because he quoted him).

*MOD HAT ON

either the flaming ceases in this thread or it will be closed. stating your opinion is one thing when worded "IMO" but the attacking here is getting a bit much and won't be tolerated much longer.

*MOD HAT OFF

i agree, kimber. the thread asks what a liberal christian is. not why conservatives are wrong, or why liberals aren't christian. so back to the topic...what is a liberal christian?

i guess it's more of a social ideology than a religious one. liberal christians are more tolerant of what may not be socially acceptable. when i say tolerant, i'm not saying that they agree with what is socially acceptable, but that they deal with them in more benign ways instead of calling the shots of what is socially acceptable and what isn't.

i guess you can label me as a liberal christian. i interact with and befriend homosexuals, actually, i get my hair cut at a gay hair salon, because they know how to cut my hair the best considering all other haircuts i've gotten in my life. hmmm, i listen to a lot of different music, lots of techno, i go to raves and go dancing at clubs. many of my friends are not christian. many are atheist, agnostic, hindu, muslim, buddhist, bahai, etc. i make it a point to get to know other people and other cultures so that i know how to relate to them. i make it a point to act good in front of them. i never shove doctrine down their throats. i tell them about my convictions when they ask me, or when they're ready to hear it. hmmm i work with the ACLU. don't shoot me please. i'm working to abolish the death penalty, and i believe in many of the agendas of the ACLU on principle. i don't like the republican political ideology. i'm a skeptic and an academiac, and love to discuss things from a scientific or academic point of view free from any overbearing cloud of rigid standards and definitions. i'm not afraid of being wrong. i use obscenities when i think it's appropriate. i speak in the language that someone can best understand something even if it may be vile or vulgar if i spoke to someone else that way. i know that there are some things that i will never know while i'm still on earth, and i'm perfectly okay with not having all the answers. above all else i try to love people no matter what their actions are, even if they hurt me. Jesus loves everyone.

i'm a liberal christian. please don't label me as ******. it hurts me, when people say that to me. if you want to talk about it, discuss certain issues, or argue with me, you can IM or E-mail me or something.

above all else i try to love people no matter what their actions are, even if they hurt me. Jesus loves everyone

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VERY VERY VERY WELL SAID!!

I believe liberal Christians do exist.

I believe there are many of them.

But remember, not every christian will be saved.

Hitler was a christian. The word is very empty.