What exactly did Jesus Save us from?....

eleos1954 · May 2, 2019

redleghunter said:
Do the Scriptures define death as total annihilation?

Psalm 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish (singular)” (2nd death)

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.” (consume - totally destroyed)

Perish (singular - not perishing ) suffer complete ruin or destruction.

Psalm 69:28 says that the wicked are “blotted out of the book of the living.” (they will not receive eternal life)

Ps. 34:16, 21 “evil brings death to the wicked.” (2nd death)

Psalm 92:7 “… shall be destroyed forever.” (self-explanatory)

Prov. 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.” (will not continue life)

Dan. 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.” (no trace of the wicked totally gone)

Isa. 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.” (consumed - totally destroyed)

Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“ (non-existent)

Mal 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.” (they will be totally burned up - destroyed by fire)

Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Here Jesus himself teaches against hell– saying that those who are lost experience the death of their soul. If one believes in eternal conscious hell, they believe Jesus was wrong on this point, and that souls don’t die at all, but will live forever in hell.

John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish (singular)” (2nd death)

Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction“ (totally destroyed)

Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“ (destroyed)

2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …” (destroyed - never to live again)

1 Corinthians 3:17: “God will destroy that person”

2 Corinthians 2:15-16: “those that perish“ (2nd death)

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“ (2nd death)

James 4:12 “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”

2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (the unsaved in the grave will face destruction) 2nd resurrection

Revelation 20:9

(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Those who believe in eternal conscious hell don’t believe in the second death– they believe everyone is immortal, and that some will live forever in hell.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.

1st Corinthians

26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Death is Death ... cease to exist (and the wages of sin is death). The first death (earthly death) is temporal ... the 2nd death (of the lost) is final and for eternity (cease to exist). The 1st resurrection is life with God for eternity.

Exist with God for eternity or not exist in eternity with God.

We do not have a loving God who tortures people for eternity that is contrary to His character. Yes, in the very end all the lost will be destroyed, necessary to eliminate sin forever.

redleghunter · May 2, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Psalm 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish (singular)” (2nd death)

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.” (consume - totally destroyed)

Perish (singular - not perishing ) suffer complete ruin or destruction.

Psalm 69:28 says that the wicked are “blotted out of the book of the living.” (they will not receive eternal life)

Ps. 34:16, 21 “evil brings death to the wicked.” (2nd death)

Psalm 92:7 “… shall be destroyed forever.” (self-explanatory)

Prov. 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.” (will not continue life)

Dan. 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.” (no trace of the wicked totally gone)

Isa. 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.” (consumed - totally destroyed)

Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“ (non-existent)

Mal 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.” (they will be totally burned up - destroyed by fire)

Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Here Jesus himself teaches against hell– saying that those who are lost experience the death of their soul. If one believes in eternal conscious hell, they believe Jesus was wrong on this point, and that souls don’t die at all, but will live forever in hell.

John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish (singular)” (2nd death)

Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction“ (totally destroyed)

Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“ (destroyed)

2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …” (destroyed - never to live again)

1 Corinthians 3:17: “God will destroy that person”

2 Corinthians 2:15-16: “those that perish“ (2nd death)

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“ (2nd death)

James 4:12 “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”

2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (the unsaved in the grave will face destruction) 2nd resurrection

Revelation 20:9

(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Those who believe in eternal conscious hell don’t believe in the second death– they believe everyone is immortal, and that some will live forever in hell.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.

1st Corinthians

26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Death is Death ... cease to exist (and the wages of sin is death). The first death (earthly death) is temporal ... the 2nd death (of the lost) is final and for eternity (cease to exist). The 1st resurrection is life with God for eternity.

Exist with God for eternity or not exist in eternity with God.

We do not have a loving God who tortures people for eternity that is contrary to His character. Yes, in the very end all the lost will be destroyed, necessary to eliminate sin forever.

Yet in the final state of things there is never a definitive reference to death being total annihilation.

Why is that?

andy b · May 2, 2019

Death was the enemy and Jesus conquered it for us

timothyu · May 2, 2019

"Fear of God does not make men shrink from Him as one would from a tyrant or a wild beast; it draws them nearer to Him and ...fills them with reverential awe. That fear which is merely self-regarding is unworthy of a child of God. The difference between fear of God and fear of man is contrasted in Isa. viii. 12-13: "Call ye not conspiracy ...Fear of God is identical with love and service. "And now, Israel, what doth Yhwh thy God require of thee but to fear Yhwh thy God, to walk in all His ways, and to love Him, and to serve" ... Jewish Encyclodedia

timothyu · May 2, 2019

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Second death.. death means death, not resurrected to eternal life. Passed away means no more. Where is the reward in granting eternal life to both the faithful to the Kingdom and those of the second death in the lake. Jesus didn't use fear tactics (a tradition of man) to get us to accept the Kingdom. He just taught us world of man created by our will evil, Kingdom on God's will good. We decide.

eleos1954 · May 2, 2019

redleghunter said:
Do the Scriptures define death as total annihilation?

Even satan is going to be reduced to ashes and be no more.

Malachi

A Lament over the King of Tyre

11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Gods not mad · May 2, 2019

mark kennedy said:
I liked some of what you said following that but wanted to address this statement. There is a sense in which wrath is imminent, coming at the day of judgment. There is also the fact that God's wrath does remain on the children of disobedience:

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.” (Romans 1:18)

“Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:6)

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. (Col. 3:5-6)

The sin that brings wrath is also a curse, all by itself. We have all heard the testimonies of those who escaped the depravity of their sin nature through faith in Christ. Things like, 'suppressing the truth in unrighteousness' (Rom. 1:8). 'The wrath of God remains' (John 3:36), and of course the wrath of God at the end of the age (Col. 3:5-6). You have to ask yourself, what is sin presently costing the sinner. The suppression of the truth, the weight of guilt and foreboding, and the gnawing pain of knowing it is deserved. More importantly sometimes the worst part of a sin, is the damage the sin is doing to you right now. If we are going to have a coherent message as believers there is one reason that should outweigh the foreboding of wrath:

But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared. (Psalm 130:4)

I mean think about it, why would I fear God if I can't escape his wrath. But if there is a chance at forgiveness, that could change your attitude I think. I know it changed mine.

Grace and peace,
Mark

i understand what you are saying. i'm talking about being in a disposition of grace. yes if one is rejecting Christ that rejection in of it's self will cause judgement to be on that individual in the here and now, but God is love and he loves us when we are rejecting him. the wrath of God has not yet been brought to it's fullness on the one who is rejecting Christ and his salvation/finished work. the portion of scripture that Jesus left out of (isaiah 61:2) while reading in the temple he adds back in at (luke 21:22) because it was spoken by God and still must be fulfilled. but he adds it back in when referencing the time of the end of the gentiles. when they flee to the mountains it will be because of the abomination of desolation.

mark kennedy said:
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)

"remains on him" it was never taken off but the fullness of it has not been realized yet Christ left it out to get to it later so that the disposition of grace could be fulfilled.

be blessed

Gods not mad · May 2, 2019

redleghunter said:
Wrath already at work.

Romans 1: NASB

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

hope this helps clarify the point i was trying to make post 127

Lucian Hodoboc · May 3, 2019

Maria Billingsley said:
Abraham's faith counted him righteous. Noah was a faithful servant to God and found righteous. Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I AM, is God in the flesh. He existed before the foundation of the world. He came in the flesh to save the sinner. He holds the keys to the Kingdom of God. If one is not in Christ, that name will be blotted out of the Book of Life thus thrown into the lake of fire. So yes.

How can one be in Christ?

JacksBratt · May 3, 2019

redleghunter said:
Do the Scriptures define death as total annihilation?

Personally, and I don't have scripture for this, but IMO, consciousness is never destroyed.

Hell does have different levels of punishment, but in the end is separation from God, knowledge of your deceptions, eternity of some level of loss of that connection.

Maria Billingsley · May 3, 2019

Lucian Hodoboc said:
How can one be in Christ?

Another way of saying being in the Body of Christ. All who believe and have faith are in His Body and we are a new creation in Him.

2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man ,in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

John0987 · May 4, 2019

From Justice. He gave us Mercy, which is much harder to accept and digest.

Rick Otto · May 10, 2019

RaymondG said:
Do you believe that the baby justly deserve wrath just because he was born?

Do you believe being born justifies you being a sinner?

Hint: we aren't "just born". There's more to it.

Rick Otto · May 10, 2019

timothyu said:
To a degree yes. We can do the will of the Father and repent/change from the ways of man. But that does not create the Kingdom or resurrection. That was God's thing. He saved us with grace enough to give us those two things. It's up to us to comply.

I respectfully disagree.
We can earn rewards in heaven, but entrance thereto is not earned in any degree.

Rick Otto · May 10, 2019

RaymondG said:
You just stated the same thing in a different way. If a child is not born, he is safe from Gods wrath......but when he is born(or conceived maybe?), he has sin imputed on it and therefore deserve God's wrath.....according to you.

Why, then, are we so willing to create subjects of God's wrath?

It's not the same, but you think so because you give child status to a hypothetically unconceived person.

Yes, it isn't fair.
So what?

Rick Otto · May 10, 2019

RaymondG said:
He stated that few will find the path to life. Why risk the soul of another on good hope? hell seems like a place full of bad dudes.......why bring souls into the world if you believe they start out IN the fire?
And why do you believe that God views children this way?

Doesn't sound like you've read the whole story.
Consider He became a perfect one Himself and paid the legal price for His own. It isn't as if this is all a painless, pointless game to Him.
Why do we risk dying by living?
Have you really lived?

RaymondG · May 10, 2019

Rick Otto said:
Do you believe being born justifies you being a sinner?

Hint: we aren't "just born". There's more to it.

I never said myself or anyone were born sinners.....so maybe this question should be addressed to the one I was conversing with.

If you wish to reiterate the notion that children deserve wrath, i see no fault in it.....you are not alone.

Rick Otto said:
It's not the same, but you think so because you give child status to a hypothetically unconceived person.

Yes, it isn't fair.
So what?

Just because your interpretations seem right to you....does not mean that they cannot lead in death and destruction.

Rick Otto said:
Doesn't sound like you've read the whole story.
Consider He became a perfect one Himself and paid the legal price for His own. It isn't as if this is all a painless, pointless game to Him.
Why do we risk dying by living?
Have you really lived?

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

timothyu · May 10, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Personally, and I don't have scripture for this, but IMO, consciousness is never destroyed.

Or perhaps the data we have saved up once the vehicle shuts down is either deleted as being corrupted or is uploaded into a new Kingdom malware free.

What exactly did Jesus Save us from?....

God is Love

Thank You Jesus!

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