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What exactly are we talking about here?

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happyinhisgrace

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http://www.mormonismi.net/temppeli/temple_ritual_altered1_utlm.shtml



Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., the son of the 10th prophet of the church, charged:
"The Bible alone is an insufficient guide because the 'plainness of the gospel' has been removed.... The early 'apostate fathers' did not think it was wrong to tamper with inspired scripture. If any scripture seemed to endanger their viewpoint, it was altered, transplanted or completely removed from the biblical text. All this was done that they might keep their traditions. Such mutilation was considered justifiable to preserve the so-called 'purity' of their doctrines." (Religious Truths Defined, 1959, pp. 175-76)






Mormon Apostle Mark E. Petersen bluntly stated:
"Many insertions were made [in the Bible], some of them 'slanted' for selfish purposes, while at times deliberate falsifications and fabrications were perpetuated." (As Translated Correctly, 1966, p. 4)





We have all heard the Mormon claims of things just like, or similar to what I have quoted above. What I want to know is where is the proof of these claims? I have highlighted the claims and would like to ask the lds on this forum to please provide the evidence for these claims so we can go over them. Thanks ahead of time.

 

pyro457

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Ive been recently going over an article on how the early Christian Church resembles The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You may want to read it. It talks about how some of the ideas and belifes of modern Christianity were altered after the deaths of the Apostles. The article is

"Mormonism in the Early Jewish Christian Milieu" by Barry R. Bickmore
 
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happyinhisgrace

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pyro, as I stated in my orginal posts, what I am looking for is proofs to these claims by LDS. Perhaps you could provide some of these "proofs" rather than just sending us to a "fairs" link. Thanks
 
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Romans5:1

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And Barry Bickmore is a what? Recognized historical theologian? Credible doctrinal historian? Neo-Pelagian attempting to advance an agenda? From what I've read from Barry, along with his bio, it is the latter, leading to the suggestion that you find something else to peruse.

BTW, pyro, I notice once again that you're not really conversing, but spreading more propaganda. Are you sure that bulletin boards designed to converse over ideas is the place you ought to be?
 
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ST:DS9

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Well, maybe they state thier proof in those books, I don't know though because I have never read those books. I would be interested in how they came up with these statments. Hopefully someone on these boards have these books and could enlighten us. But there may not be proof, unless the original writtings of the Bible appear.
 
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happyinhisgrace

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Then why do lds leaders of past and present make such claims? It is still taught (according to my family who is still VERY lds) in church that the bible is missing many "plain and precious" things. If there is no proof for this claim, why does the lds church keep making it?
 
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ST:DS9

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Well whether there is physical proof or not, it doesn't matter to members of the LDS Church. We believe that the church is the restored Church of Jesus Christ. We believe in modern day prophets, who are just like the prophets in the Bible. It was given through revelation that the Bible was missing many plain and precious things. Now that I think about it, that is probaly where those statements in the OP came from, and they were probably expounding on that revelation. But I have not read those books, so I'm not sure, maybe they do have some proof, but then again maybe not. We live by our faith in Jesus Christ and rely on the Holy Spirit to give us guidance and testify to us the truth of all things.
 
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Doc T

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Just for you Grace.

John Tvedtnes noted:
Very Early Christian writers noted examples of textual corruption. Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165) accused the Jews of removing portions of the Old Testament that prophesied of Christ to come. He referred to missing portions of the writings of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezra, citing the missing words (Dialogue With Trypho 72-74). Two other second-century writers, Irenaeus (Against Heresies 3:20; 4:22) and Melito of Sardis (Homily on the Passion), cited one of the same passages, the latter attributing it to both Isaiah and Jeremiah. Ironically, none of these missing parts has been restored in any Christian Bible.

Several of the Church Fathers of the first centuries of the Christian era quote from Ezekiel items that are not found in the biblical book of that name. Epiphanius (Against Heresies 64.70.5-17) attributes to Ezekiel the story of the blind and lame men, which is also found, without attribution, in TB Sanhedrin 91a-b), but which is unknown from Ezekiel’s writings. 1 Clement 8:3, citing Ezekiel 18:30-31, adds ideas not found in that passage but which are also included in the version found in one of the Nag Hammadi texts, The Exegesis on the Soul (II,6) 135-6. Tertullian (De Carne Christi 23) noted that Ezekiel wrote about a cow that had given birth and had not given birth—a story repeated by Epiphanius (Panarion Haeresies 30.30.3), Gregory of Nyassa (Against the Jews 3), Clement of Alexandria (Stromata 7:16) and in Acts of Peter 24. Clement of Alexandria (Paedagogus 1:9) attributes to Ezekiel words that partially parallel the thoughts in Ezekiel 34:11-16 but which are quite different. From these examples, it is clear that the Ezekiel text possessed by the early Church differed from the one in today’s Bible.

Among the Dead Sea Scrolls are two fragmentary copies of a document (4Q385, 4Q386) that have been termed “Pseudo-Ezekiel” because it has passages from the biblical Ezekiel that vary from what is found in the standard Massoretic Hebrew text. Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian of the first century A.D., declared that Ezekiel had written two books of prophecies (Antiquities of the Jews 10.5.1), though only one is found in the Bible.

There are also a number of passages in the New Testament that are not found in all of the ancient manuscripts. The most well known are found in Mark 16, John 8, and 1 John 5. The latter involves the words “the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” (1 John 5:7). These words are missing in 250 Greek New Testament manuscripts and are found in no manuscript from before the seventh century A.D. They only appear in four manuscripts written after 1400. Most scholars believe that a scribe added these words as an explanatory gloss.​

John Gee also notes:
Justin Martyr, a philosopher who lived in the middle of the second century, leveled the following accusation against the Jews: "from the ninety-fifth (ninety-sixth) Psalm they have taken away this short saying of the words of David: 'From the wood.' For when the passage said, 'Tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned from the wood,' they have left, 'Tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned.'",[Justin Martyr, Dialogus cum Tryphone 73, in The Ante-Nicean Fathers, 1:235.] Justin's antagonist, Trypho downplayed the accusation by saying "Whether [or not] the rulers of the people have erased any portion of the Scriptures, as you affirm, God knows; but it seems incredible."[Ibid.]

We learn about some of the types of changes made in the Christian texts because, ironically, they are clearly enumerated by the very people responsible for preserving them. For example Rufinus (fourth century) says of the earlier Christian texts he is copying: Wherever, therefore, we have found in his [in this case Origen's] books anything contrary to that which was piously established by him about the Trinity in other places, either we have omitted it as corrupt and interpolated, or edited it according to that pattern that we often find asserted by himself. If, however, speaking to the trained and learned, he writes obscurely because he desires to briefly pass over something, we, to make the passage plainer, have added those things that we have read on the same subject openly in his other books….All who shall copy or read this…shall neither add anything to this writing, nor remove anything, nor insert anything, nor change anything. [Rufinus, preface to Origen, Peri Archon, 2-4, in Patrologiae Graecae 11: 113-114; cf. G. W. Butterworth, trans., Origen On First Principles (Goucester, Massechusetts: Peter Smith, 1973), lxiii-ixiv.]

Removal is the easiest textual corruption to introduce, and the most frequent form of scribal error. Justin Martyr accuses the Jews of removing small phrases from the scriptures.[Justin Martyr, Dialogus cum Tryphone 73, in The Ante-Nicean Fathers, 1:235.] Tertullian makes the same accusation of using "the knife, not the pen," in making "such an excision of the Scriptures" against Marcion.[Tertullian, De Praescriptione Haereticorum 38, in Ante-Nicean Fathers, 3:262.]

Addition is also a textual corruption, though less frequent than deletion: Tertullian discusses entire forged "writings, which wrongly go under Paul's name" and which circulated in his day. [Tertullian, De Baptismo 17, in Ante-Nicean Fathers, 3:677.]​

I could go on and on with examples of the early Christians claiming that the scriptures had been changed. There are also many non-LDS scholars who are in agreement.

Doc

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Fit4Christ

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I have three questions - first, is it commonly accepted in the lds church (but not necessarily doctrine) that what you have posted is indeed part of the so-called "tampering" or "alterations" referred to in Grace's OP?

Second, when Joseph Smith made an attempt to re-translate the KJV of the Bible (JST), did he make any effort to restore anything along the lines of what you have posted, or any other examples you may have of changes in scripture by early Christians?

Lastly, does the BoM, D&C, PGP, or any other lds doctrine address or attempt to "restore" these "alterations"?

Surely, if the lds church is Christ's restored church, some sort of revelation must have been given on what needs to be restored from any alterations by early Christians, shouldn't it?
 
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Doc T

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Fit4Christ said:
I have three questions - first, is it commonly accepted in the lds church (but not necessarily doctrine) that what you have posted is indeed part of the so-called "tampering" or "alterations" referred to in Grace's OP?

It would depend on what you mean by "commonly." If you are asking, If I were to ask 1000 members of the LDS church about this subject as a sampling of the Church as large, you would probably get 990 blank stares. The other 10 being a more "scholarly" type and from them you would find what I posted to be commonly accepted.

Fit4Christ said:
Second, when Joseph Smith made an attempt to re-translate the KJV of the Bible (JST), did he make any effort to restore anything along the lines of what you have posted, or any other examples you may have of changes in scripture by early Christians?

Yes, and no. Yes, restored were some lost truths, but most of what the JST is IMO is more like what Stephen Robinson proposes. In his (and my opinion) the JST "should be understood to contain additional revelation, alternate readings, prophetic commentary or midrash, harmonization, clarification and corrections of the original as well as corrections to the original"

The no, is that it is not a re-translation like the NIV or some other more modern translation of the Bible.


Certainly we believe that many truths have been restored and are found within the additional books of scripture that we have. The problem IMO is deciphering what is a restoration of what was lost and what is new information that was not previously revealed or just not elaborated on in the Bible. Section 76 comes to mind in relation to 1 Cor 15.

Doc

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CrownCaster

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Please show me where in the early Christian church that there were temple endowments, baptisms for the dead, eternal sealings, 12 year old deacons, polygamy, etc. etc. etc.
 
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CrownCaster

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Funny, the early manuscripts actually are in order and there are thousands of them. You know what they show? They show that in fact the early scribes were maticulous in keeping those records and the Biblical record has NOT been corrupted but has in fact handed down in its true form. Would you expect anything less from a Sovereign Perfect God and His Word?
 
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CrownCaster

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ST:DS9 said:
Well whether there is physical proof or not, it doesn't matter to members of the LDS Church.
LOL! That is what we have been trying to show you. You can believe in magic pixie dust if you want but if the facts show it to be false, then you are believing a lie.
We believe that the church is the restored Church of Jesus Christ. We believe in modern day prophets, who are just like the prophets in the Bible. It was given through revelation that the Bible was missing many plain and precious things.
Shouldnt you start that out with "i'd like to bear my testimony, I know the church is true, I love my mom and dad, I know gordon is a prophet, blah blah blah?
Now that I think about it, that is probaly where those statements in the OP came from, and they were probably expounding on that revelation.
What revelation and was it voted on in the church?
But I have not read those books, so I'm not sure, maybe they do have some proof, but then again maybe not.
But youll just blindly be led to destruction anyway?
 
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CrownCaster

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Doc T said:


I could go on and on with examples of the early Christians claiming that the scriptures had been changed. There are also many non-LDS scholars who are in agreement.

Doc

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Then please, quote one of them. Reading this kind of stuff from a mormon is like going to marlboro for a fact sheet on the dangers of smoking.
 
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Fit4Christ

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By "commonly" I meant if it was talked about at a GA, taught somewhere within your church, or posted on an official website - something along the lines of being easily accessable to all members. If maybe 1% even know about it, then I'll take your answer as a "no", it is not common.



Ok, so in the JST, can you point me to which lost truths you posted were restored and where one might find them? Or even others that you didn't post?



Doc

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[/QUOTE]
What specific truths and where can they be found in your scriptures? Section 76 describes relating to John 5:29. What part of 1 Cor. 15 are you referring to?
 
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Doc T

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CrownCaster said:
Please show me where in the early Christian church that there were temple endowments, baptisms for the dead, eternal sealings, 12 year old deacons, polygamy, etc. etc. etc.

Try doing a Google search for Barry Bickmore's website. There you will find all kinds of information you are seeking.

Doc

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happyinhisgrace

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Well, if the claims of the lds leaders, that say the things I highlighted in previous posts, is actual truth, then surely their is proof if it somewhere.
 
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happyinhisgrace

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Doc, this all sounds really "informative" but if it is like every other cut and paste from lds apologetic web-sites and books, once you dig into it and do your own research, you find that the lds "apologist" have totally taken source writings out of context to further their own point and in some cases, flat out misrepresented the beliefs, teachings and views of the actual sources they used to prove their points.

So, before I comment on the above cut and paste, I need to "dig into it" myself.
 
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