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What evolutionists have to say

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SBG

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Here is what some famous people in science - most of which are scientists are writers of and subscribe to evolution - have to say about evolution:



Charles Darwin in Origin of Species G. M. Dent, London, 1972) p. 292: "...Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against it [his theory of evolution]."

T. Neville George (Science Progress , Vol. 48, Jan. 1960) p. 3: "The fossil record nevertheless continues to be composed mainly of gaps."

Stephen Jay Gould(Natural History June-July,1977)pp.22,24: "... The fossil record with its abrupt transitions offers no support for gradual change ... All paleontologists know that the fossil record contains precious little in the way of intermediate forms; transitions between major groups are characteristically abrupt. "

Steven M. Stanley (then at Johns Hopkins University), Macroevolution (W.H.Freeman,San Francisco,1979)p.96:"...The known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution accomplishing a major morphological transition and hence offers no evidence that the gradualistic model can be valid. "

"Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a phantasy". Charles Darwin, Life and Letters, 1887, Vol. 2, p. 229.

"Although a biologist, I must confess I do not understand how life came about... I consider that life only starts at the level of a functional cell. The most primitive cells may require at least several hundred different specific biological macro-molecules. How such already quite complex structures may have come together, remains a mystery to me. The possibility of the existence of a Creator, of God, represents to me a satisfactory solution to this problem." Werner Arber (Nobel for Medicine in 1978) a quote fromHenry Margenau & Ray Abraham Varghese, eds., "Cosmos, Bios, Theos: Scientists Reflect on Science, God and the Origin of the Universe, Life and Homo Sapiens" /LaSalle, IL, USA: Open Court, 1992, p. 142.[size=+0]
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[size=+0]"The more we know about the cosmos and evolutionary biology, the more they seem inexplicable without some aspect of [intelligent] design," Townes asserts. "And for me that inspires faith." Charles Hard Townes (Nobel prize for Physics in 1964). Greg Easterbrook "Of lasers and prayer" w Science, Vol. 277, 15 August 1997.
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[size=+0]"I do not want to believe in God. Therefore I choose to believe in that which I know is scientifically impossible, spontaneous generation leading to evolution." George Wald (Nobel prize for Medicine in 1967). George Wald, "Frontiers of Modern Biology on Theories of Origin of Life" (New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1972), p. 187.



[size=+0]"An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that, in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle." Francis Crick, [Crick received a Nobel Prize for discovering the structure of DNA.] Life Itself, Its Origin and Nature (1981), p. 88.


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[size=+0]"When it comes to the origin of life on this earth, there are only two possibilities: creation or spontaneous generation. There is no third way. Spontaneous generation was disproved 100 years ago, but that leads us only to one other conclusion: that of supernatural creation. We cannot accept that on philosophical grounds therefore, we choose to believe the impossible: that life arose spontaneously by chance." George Wald (Nobel prize for Medicine in 1967).



"Every time I write a paper on the origin of life, I determine I will never write another one, because there is too much speculation running after too few facts." Francis Crick, [Crick received a Nobel Prize for discovering the structure of DNA.] Life Itself, Its Origin and Nature (1981), p. 88.


"In tracking the emergence of the eukarytic cell,, one enters a kind of wonderland where scientific pursuit leads almost to fantasy. Cell and molecular biologists must construct cellular worlds in their own imaginations. ... Imagination, to some degree, is essential for grasping the key events in cellular history." -- B.D. Dyer and R.A. Obar, Tracing the History of Eukarytic Cells, Columbia University Press 1994, pp. 2 & 3.



"To produce this miracle of molecular construction all the cell need do is to string together the amino acids (which make up the polypeptide chain) in the correct order. This is a complicated biochemical process, a molecular assembly line, using instructions in the form of a nucleic acid tape (the so-called messenger RNA). Here we need only ask, how many possible proteins are there? If a particular amino acid sequence was selected by chance, how rare of an event would that be?
This is an easy exercise in combinatorials. Suppose the chain is about two hundred amino acids long; this is, if anything, rather less than
the average length of proteins of all types. Since we have just twenty possibilities at each place, the number of possibilities is twenty multiplied by itself some two hundred times. This is conveniently written 20200, that is a one followed by 260 zeros!
This number is quite beyond our everyday comprehension. For comparison, consider the number of fundamental particles (atoms, speaking loosely) in the entire visible universe, not just in our own galaxy with its 1011 stars, but in all the billions of galaxies, out to the limits of observable space. This number, which is estimated to be 1080, is quite paltry by comparison to 10260. Moreover, we have only considered a polypeptide chain of a rather modest length. Had we considered longer ones as well, the figure would have been even more immense."
Francis Crick, [Crick received a Nobel Prize for discovering the structure of DNA.] Life Itself, Its Origin and Nature (1981), p. 88. pp 51-52.


"Even with DNA sequence data, we have no direct access to the processes of evolution, so objective reconstruction of the vanished past can be achieved only by creative imagination." -- N. Takahata, A General Perspective on the Origin & History of Humans, Annual Reviews of Ecology & Systematics, 1995.


"The real question is whether we have enough imagination to reconstruct their lives [the lives of early humans]." -- Robert Blumenschine, paleoanthropologist of Rutgers University in a 1989 U.S. News and World Report cover story.


"If pressed about man's ancestry, I would have to unequivocally say that all we have is a huge question mark. To date, there has been nothing found to truthfully purport as a transitional specie to man, including Lucy, since 1470 was as old and probably older. If further pressed, I would have to state that there is more evidence to suggest an abrupt arrival of man rather than a gradual process of evolving". Richard Leakey, world's foremost paleoanthropologist, in a PBS documentary, 1990.




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As one can see, not all evolutionists are so convinced that it is correct, even when they subscribe to it. Francis Crick as one of the biggest supporters of evolution and he claims there isn't enough time for life to come out of the primordial soup. He rather states aliens are the cause.

Anyways, I presented this so that many can see not all evolutionists believe it but rather follow it because they are unwilling to accept there being a God.

Now for the theistic evolutionists, you are all in a nice spot aren't you. If you cannot explain it with evolution or science, you can just go, God did it. Nice middle ground you have, able to pull from both sides when needed.

 
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SBG

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StarmanTK said:
SBG, do you normally quote out of context? Do you normally cite things that are for the most part decades old yet pass it off as current thought? In other words, are you normally dishonest?

How am I dishonest? I gave you the dates and citations. These are what some evolutionists have to say on the subject.

Does it make you feel I am being dishonest because I have given quotes? They are not out of context, for all of these people do believe in evolution still. They just understand evolutions problems.

You are rather quick to judge me as dishonest, these quotes must bother you. I had not intention of hurting your feelings, but rather showing that even evolutionists themselves see problems in the theory. Unlike so many here who have the attitude that evolution is completely sound. I would consider that being dishonest. At least these individuals can be honest enough to say it has problems even though they are working on fixing them.

It seems here that evolution is treated as the end all of the origin discussion. Rather premature considering evidence is lacking. Now it may take time to gather and interpret that evidence to go with this theory, but one must be honest and realize it isn't sound as you all want everyone to think it is. And if pointing this out is being dishonest, then sure I am dishonest.

Anyways that is my response to your ad hominem.

Vance, it seems even the theistic evolutionists like the ad hominem as much as the YEC's you claim do.
 
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Vance

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SBG, what you are doing is called "quote mining" and it definitely smacks of dishonesty. Have you read each of those quotes in context to see whether it accurately reflects what the author believes? I am sure you are aware how easily a position can be distorted by a quote out of context. If you have not read each of them in their original context, I would hesitate to post them, since by posting them, you could be bearing false witness as to what the speaker's true position is.
 
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SBG

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Yes, actually it has been the theistic evolutionists who have showed me what quote mining really is and how to take it out of context. They do it all the time with the Bible about Genesis.

And I have not beared false witness to these people, for this is what they have stated about their uncertainties of evolution. I have still said they believe evolution, I have not said they think it is a bad belief, but rather they are honest enough to see where it needs work.
 
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Vance

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SBG said:
Yes, actually it has been the theistic evolutionists who have showed me what quote mining really is and how to take it out of context. They do it all the time with the Bible about Genesis.

And I have not beared false witness to these people, for this is what they have stated about their uncertainties of evolution. I have still said they believe evolution, I have not said they think it is a bad belief, but rather they are honest enough to see where it needs work.

Have you read these quotes in their original context?

Or, did you just get them from a Creationist web site?
 
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SBG

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Actually I got the Darwin quotes from his book as well as Francis Cricks quotes. The others from throughout the internet.

But of course if they are form a creationist, Bible believing place they must be garbage.
So, the next time you or anyone presents anything from an evolutionists site about creationism, it too will be garbage.

All I would really like to see is a fairness of each sides being presented. Unfortunately, the evolutionists seem rather insecure with their theory, otherwise they wouldn't care if an opposing theory was also given the same attention. But of course this realization fails on all those who subscribe to evolution.
 
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Vance

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Are you proposing a "teach the controversy" approach?

Would you be equally in favor of a "preach the controversy" approach, in which Theistic Evolution was given equal (and I do mean equal) time in all of our churches? From the pulpit and the Sunday School? Honestly and fairly?
 
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mhess13

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Vance said:
Are you proposing a "teach the controversy" approach?

Would you be equally in favor of a "preach the controversy" approach, in which Theistic Evolution was given equal (and I do mean equal) time in all of our churches? From the pulpit and the Sunday School? Honestly and fairly?
Why on earth would a Bible believing pastor give equal time to preach TE? The pulpit is no place to give equal time to a theory that has ZERO scriptural backing!
 
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tryptophan

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Where exactly did you get these quotes from. If you got them from another site, they are being dishonest. If you looked them up yourself, you are being dishonest.

For example, the Gould quote:

Stephen Jay Gould(Natural History June-July,1977)pp.22,24: "... The fossil record with its abrupt transitions offers no support for gradual change ... All paleontologists know that the fossil record contains precious little in the way of intermediate forms; transitions between major groups are characteristically abrupt. "


is Gould's showing the problems with a current model of evolution. However, he is proposing another model, punctuated equilibrium, which is an attempt to explain a phenomena in the fossil record. It is dishonest to say that he is questioning evolution. He believes that there is sufficient evidence to prove it.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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mhess13 said:
Why on earth would a Bible believing pastor give equal time to preach TE? The pulpit is no place to give equal time to a theory that has ZERO scriptural backing!

Why on earth would a science teacher give equal time to teach YECism? The classroom is no place to give equal time to a theory that has ZERO scientific backing!


mirror images
 
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mhess13

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rmwilliamsll said:
Why on earth would a science teacher give equal time to teach YECism? The classroom is no place to give equal time to a theory that has ZERO scientific backing!


mirror images
I'm not trying to get YEC into government schools. I just dont want them teaching evolution as FACT
 
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rmwilliamsll

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mhess13 said:
I'm not trying to get YEC into government schools. I just dont want them teaching evolution as FACT

but dont you see the mirror imageness of the arguments?

YEC--Bible inerrant, universe lies
materialist- Bible lies, universe alone is truth

Why on earth would a science teacher give equal time to teach YECism? The classroom is no place to give equal time to a theory that has ZERO scientific backing!

Why on earth would a Bible believing pastor give equal time to preach TE? The pulpit is no place to give equal time to a theory that has ZERO scriptural backing

neither camp desires to read BOTh books of God together---
it is either one or the other
 
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PaladinValer

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Public schools aren't the place for teaching what is religiously true. They are the place where science however is discussed.

And since evolution has been proven, it is and will forever be taught as a fact until it is replaced with a better scientific theory.
 
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SBG

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tryptophan said:
Where exactly did you get these quotes from. If you got them from another site, they are being dishonest. If you looked them up yourself, you are being dishonest.

For example, the Gould quote:

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is Gould's showing the problems with a current model of evolution. However, he is proposing another model, punctuated equilibrium, which is an attempt to explain a phenomena in the fossil record. It is dishonest to say that he is questioning evolution. He believes that there is sufficient evidence to prove it.

I am not surprised that you have conviently missed what I have said repeatedly. That these people were not disproving evolution, nor were they saying they don't believe in it. They were pointing out the problems with it, even though they believe it to be true.

One really has to wonder if you are interested in what I said, or you just want to argue against me. I never said these quotes were to be against evolution and to show that the ones being quoted don't believe in evolution for the quoted reasons.

I have been trying to point out simple fact - one that many here cannot seem to grasp - that evolution does have problems with the theory. Even the most respected scientist will tell you it is not perfect. Yet!!!! So many of the people here - which I believe are just followers - are adament about evolution not having any problems and is the perfect solution.

At least those scientists who still believe in evolution are HONEST enough about the theory. You cannot get anyone here to even be honest about it. And yet you all acuse me of being dishonest.

I really shouldn't have been surprised that this would become name calling so quickly. Again Vance, theistic evolutionists are proving to be what you claim YEC's are.
 
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SBG

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Vance said:
Are you proposing a "teach the controversy" approach?

Would you be equally in favor of a "preach the controversy" approach, in which Theistic Evolution was given equal (and I do mean equal) time in all of our churches? From the pulpit and the Sunday School? Honestly and fairly?

Yes I am proposing a teaching of the controversy approach. Why? Because if evolution is as sound as you and the rest here claim, it has no reason to worry about another theory being talked about. Furthermore a single theory does nothing to advance science. It is when a competing theory that receives equal time and funding as another that pushes to science to newer discoveries. Science is much like anything else, it needs competition within itself to become better.

Evolution already gets time inside the churches. And some churches find it to be lacking when it comes to scriptural support. One must manipulate scripture in the way it is not intended in order to try and reconcile evolution with scripture.

But don't fret, you always have the Vatican that might support it, as it sees evolution to be quite probably. If the Vatican decides to go that route, who knows, maybe all theistic evolutionists will become Catholics.
 
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SBG

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PaladinValer said:
Public schools aren't the place for teaching what is religiously true. They are the place where science however is discussed.

And since evolution has been proven, it is and will forever be taught as a fact until it is replaced with a better scientific theory.

What has evolution been proven as? Don't say it is fact because not all of evolution is considered a fact by scientists.

Let me ask you, do you think Christ ought to be taught to all people?

By your statement above, I can conlude that you believe there are times when one must be quiet and ashamed of Christ.
 
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SBG

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rmwilliamsll said:
but dont you see the mirror imageness of the arguments?

YEC--Bible inerrant, universe lies
materialist- Bible lies, universe alone is truth

Why on earth would a science teacher give equal time to teach YECism? The classroom is no place to give equal time to a theory that has ZERO scientific backing!

Why on earth would a Bible believing pastor give equal time to preach TE? The pulpit is no place to give equal time to a theory that has ZERO scriptural backing

neither camp desires to read BOTh books of God together---
it is either one or the other

Well at least you make this cut and dry. Which do you choose, science or the Bible?
 
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