What Europe needs to do in the face of American betrayal

[mindlight]

To me, this sounds like a strategy that would result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of more people.

This war is pointless and costs too much blood and treasure. But you assume that Putin is ready for peace. He kept the border open and bleeding in Ukraine since 2014. He is playing a longer game than Trump and is still committed to his grand vision of Russian Empire. Sometimes there is no easy deal to be made and so the fighting continues.. If Ukraine caves then Russia has ambitions on NATO countries also - like the Baltic states.

 

[Larniavc]

As I said: The result of the two bottleneck scenarios. The kind of data (today's genetic variety) used to postulate that bottleneck.

Yeah, but that means it happened. What we arguing about here?

 

[Larniavc]

Obviously, the war would continue.

To me, this sounds like a strategy that would result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of more people.

 

[Infirmus]

Agent Trumpov continues his work...

U.S. to Withdraw From Group Investigating Responsibility for Ukraine Invasion

The decision is the latest indication of the Trump administration’s move away from holding President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia accountable for crimes committed against Ukrainians.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Bradskii]

Agent Trumpov continues his work...

There's more. From here: Trump says he and Putin will discuss land and powerplants in Ukraine ceasefire talks

“I’ll be speaking to President Putin on Tuesday. A lot of work’s been done over the weekend...we will be talking about land. We will be talking about power plants,” Trump said, when asked about concessions. “I think we have a lot of it already discussed very much by both sides, Ukraine and Russia. We are already talking about that, dividing up certain assets.”

The 'we' obviously refers to him and Putin.

 

[Infirmus]

"We are already talking about that, dividing up certain assets.”

The 'we' obviously refers to him and Putin.

One reason for Europe to do this properly and not let Trump and his crowd of nepobabies, felons, 'libertarians' cryptoscammers and fascists to drive the narrative.

And to send them a bill for all the assistance by foreign militaries after 9/11 (and multiply the bill by three, like they did with theirs for their aid for Ukraine).

 

[Infirmus]

...and agent Trumpov works tirelessly, for the glory of Russia, for the glory of China:

Trump freezes VOA, Radio Free Asia, Radio Free Europe

President Donald Trump's administration on Saturday put journalists at Voice of America and other US-funded broadcasters on leave, abruptly freezing outlets long seen as critical to countering a Russian…

www.france24.com

 

[Bradskii]

...and agent Trumpov works tirelessly, for the glory of Russia, for the glory of China:

Trump freezes VOA, Radio Free Asia, Radio Free Europe

President Donald Trump's administration on Saturday put journalists at Voice of America and other US-funded broadcasters on leave, abruptly freezing outlets long seen as critical to countering a Russian…

www.france24.com

Oh, good grief...

 

[Nithavela]

...and agent Trumpov works tirelessly, for the glory of Russia, for the glory of China:

Trump freezes VOA, Radio Free Asia, Radio Free Europe

President Donald Trump's administration on Saturday put journalists at Voice of America and other US-funded broadcasters on leave, abruptly freezing outlets long seen as critical to countering a Russian…

www.france24.com

He was propably thinking that they are EU and "Asian" agenciesthat the USA is needlessly funding because of the names.

As an aside, I think that the EU _SHOULD_ pick up the funding. It's a radio station, it can't be that expensive.

 

[Malleeboy]

1) Most NATO countries have been for decades not meeting their obligation to 2% defence spending, but have been "bludging" off US defence spending.
2) Ukraine is not a NATO responsibility, the US has already given Ukraine far more than a non ally should reasonable expect.
3) If Europe thinks Ukraine is a European issue, than European countries should have taken the lead and not leant on the US to do so.
4) Australia has had two regional issues, (East Timor and Solomon Islands) in both we took the lead, and were grateful for the non combat assistance the US did supply, Remember Indonesia has a population that is 10x Australia's and East Timor was full of Indonesian backed militias.
5) If Europe would have had invested the 2% minimum NATO expected spending on military, then it would have the means to actually help Ukraine without relying on the US.
6) Trump has done many European countries a large favour, by showing them that their consistent failure to spend their fair share on military budgets, they have left themselves embeggared to the US on military issues.

bludge \BLUJ\ verb. 1 : (chiefly Australia & New Zealand) to avoid work or responsibility. 2 : (chiefly Australia & New Zealand) to get something from or live on another by imposing on hospitality or good nature : sponge.

 

[Bradskii]

1) Most NATO countries have been for decades not meeting their obligation to 2% defence spending, but have been "bludging" off US defence spending.

I think that if the US took a hard look at waste in the DoD then their spending would probably equate to European nations. Problem then solved. What trump is effectively demanding is that those nations should be as wasteful as the US.

What those clowns in the DOGE are doing (and they probably have less knowledge of defence matters than I have - and I have none) are saving what they say is a huge amount by cutting out 'DEI' and programs not aligned with Trumps 'vision'. Total amount saved to date...$80 million. https://www.defense.gov/News/News-S...eveal-80-million-in-wasteful-spending-at-dod/

Sounds a lot. But to put that in context, it's the cost of a single F-35 fighter. And the DoD is going to buy 2,500 of them. And they are so expensive to maintain that each branch of the military that will have them has drastically reduced the number of times they'll be flown. That's like buying a top of the line car and then taking the bus to work. Total cost by the way will be north of $2 trillion.

So DOGE has saved 0.004% of that so far. Well done, guys.

 

[trophy33]

1) Most NATO countries have been for decades not meeting their obligation to 2% defence spending

1. 2% guideline has not been an obligation for decades, this is misinformation. This guideline was formally adopted at the NATO Wales Summit in 2014 and it is not an obligation. It is rather a political commitment. And most NATO countries are already meeting or exceeding this guideline.

2. A huge portion of the US defense spending goes to salaries (higher than in other countries), healthcare, social programs, care for veterans, education etc, which is covered with civilian budgets in other countries, so it cannot just be compared 1:1. Also there is a significantly higher pricing of equipment, research, healthcare and basically of everything in the US, which also distorts the comparison.

 

[RDKirk]

1. 2% guideline has not been an obligation for decades, this is misinformation. This guideline was formally adopted at the NATO Wales Summit in 2014 and it is not an obligation. It is rather a political commitment. And most NATO countries are already meeting or exceeding this guideline.

2. A huge portion of the US defense spending goes to salaries (higher than in other countries), healthcare, social programs, care for veterans, education etc, which is covered with civilian budgets in other countries, so it cannot just be compared 1:1. Also there is a significantly higher pricing of equipment, research, healthcare and basically of everything in the US, which also distorts the comparison.

Veterans programs are under the VA, which is not part of the DoD budget.

I'd like to see some information that other countries are counting other expenses for the military under their military budgets even if they do socialize those programs for civilians.

 

[trophy33]

Veterans programs are under the VA, which is not part of the DoD budget.

I'd like to see some information that other countries are counting other expenses for the military under their military budgets even if they do socialize those programs for civilians.

I find this video interesting. A lot of the US military spending is ineffective. Also, according to the author, the "veteran affairs" are part of the US defense spending.

 

[RDKirk]

I find this video interesting. A lot of the US military spending is ineffective. Also, according to the author, the "veteran affairs" are part of the US defense spending.

I don't care what that YouTuber said, the VA budget is not part of the DoD budget. You can look that up.

 

[trophy33]

I don't care what that YouTuber said, the VA budget is not part of the DoD budget. You can look that up.

I do not know what is the official source, but according to my search, VA are really not a part of the DoD, however, healthcare, salaries, benefits, and retirement for active, reserve, and retired personnel are. As an European, I do not know what else should be covered by the veterans budget, if not health and retirement or what is the difference.

About 8% of veterans in the US are homeless, while the budget of the VA was $369.3 billion for 2025. Either it is also absurdly ineffective like the rest of the similar US spending or I have no idea what is it used for. I have not heard of any homeless veteran in the EU.

 

[Gene2memE]

1) Most NATO countries have been for decades not meeting their obligation to 2% defence spending, but have been "bludging" off US defence spending.

The 2% defense spending target was only established in 2007 and was only introduced in 2014 as a guideline with an aspirational goal of reaching the target by 2024.

How then, could most NATO states be failing to meet it for "decades"?

2) Ukraine is not a NATO responsibility, the US has already given Ukraine far more than a non ally should reasonable expect.

Ukraine has been a NATO partner since the late 1990s and has been working on greater integration with NATO since 2014.

3) If Europe thinks Ukraine is a European issue, than European countries should have taken the lead and not leant on the US to do so.

European countries have. They've given more both in total and in per capita.

4) Australia has had two regional issues, (East Timor and Solomon Islands) in both we took the lead, and were grateful for the non combat assistance the US did supply, Remember Indonesia has a population that is 10x Australia's and East Timor was full of Indonesian backed militias.

East Timor was also supported by the Portugal, the UK, New Zealand, the Philippines, Thailand, South Korea, France and others. Australia supplied about 1/4th of the combat personnel who were involved in the peacekeeping operations and less than 20% of the personnel overall.

5) If Europe would have had invested the 2% minimum NATO expected spending on military, then it would have the means to actually help Ukraine without relying on the US.

Not really. Ukraine has received mostly late Cold War surplus. The main area of European capacity shortage has been in ammunition - 105 and 155mm artillery shells and 227mm guided rockets.

6) Trump has done many European countries a large favour, by showing them that their consistent failure to spend their fair share on military budgets, they have left themselves embeggared to the US on military issues.

bludge \BLUJ\ verb. 1 : (chiefly Australia & New Zealand) to avoid work or responsibility. 2 : (chiefly Australia & New Zealand) to get something from or live on another by imposing on hospitality or good nature : sponge.

Europe got a wake up call in 2014 and 2022. It has been progressively increasing military spending for a decade. But, changing national budget priorities takes time - even massive defense spending ramp-ups don't happen without a lot of back and forth. At least, in a democracy.

 

[trophy33]

But, changing national budget priorities takes time - even massive defense spending ramp-ups don't happen without a lot of back and forth. At least, in a democracy.

Yeah, exactly. Some people imagine it as living in a medieval ages kingdoms or in some kind of a dictatorship.

In democracies, governments change, leading parties change, parliaments discuss, vote, discuss again. It takes time, because it is an open process, not a decision of one representative in some NATO summit. Even the USA is going forth and back according to elections, like with the Paris climate treaty.

 

[Helmut-WK]

Yeah, but that means it happened. What we arguing about here?

I said that there are two scenarios with different bottlenecks, and I see no option how to decide between them, because they leave the same kind of data.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Federal judge blocks Trump from shuttering Radio Free Europe​

Kari Lake, a senior adviser at the U.S. Agency for Global Media, sent the organization a brief termination letter that U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth said likely violated the law.

U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth, a Ronald Reagan appointee, granted a temporary restraining order preventing the U.S Agency for Global Media from shutting down Radio Free Europe after the government indicated it would disburse $7.5 million in frozen funds.