What errors and inventions arose in Roman Catholicism?

Erose · Aug 23, 2013

Pteriax said:
Care to share with the rest of the class what the difference is between adoration and veneration? If there is one?

Yes I can Pteriax:

1st veneration: Veneration is giving unique honor and respect for someone. Examples of veneration are simple to find:

We are called to honor our parents, to place them a very unique place of respect in our lives. Why because they are the material reason for you existence and they raised you up and took care of you when you couldn't.

We are called to honor our spouses as well. We are to establish a unique relationship with them that we have with no other person. Flesh of our flesh, bones of our bones.

We are respect our lawful leader's and their positions of authority. Why? Primarily they have authority over you, but for other reasons as well. You know render to Caesar.

We also find ourselves venerating and respecting people that we call heroes in our lives, whether it is someone iconic like Martin Luther King Jr., or Bill Graham, or Lady Gaga; but it can also be some in our personal lives: maybe a coach who took you under his wing, or a teacher that spent some time with you, or uncle Jack because he always took you fishing, or an older brother, who took up for you on the playground.

Some of us also venerate saints and Mary. Why? Well there are a few reasons why I do, and they are:
1) They give me evidence that I can do it. If the saints can become Christ-like as we are called to be, then why not me? One can always find a saint with a similar background to them, who surrendered themselves to God and became like the moon to His sun, reflecting God's beauty and majesty into the world.
2) These men and women give us guideposts on how to apply what Jesus taught in the Gospels. They are people to emulate because they emulated Jesus.
3) The ancients venerated these men and women, because of the very fact that they were living, breathing images of Christ. Because of this incredible bond with Christ, these men and women were in a very unique way Christ, and as such they venerated Christ through these men and women.
4) Concerning Mary, she does hold a very unique place among the saints, and since the beginning she was singled out by Christians. Why? Well that is obvious, no one have ever lived on earth, who was so tied to the Son of God, as the mother who bore and raised Him. Because of that, and also due to the efficacy of her intercession over the centuries, that veneration has grown.

Now Adoration. Adoration includes veneration, as we must venerate our Lord to adore Him, but adoration goes much further than veneration. In adoration, we realize that the Person, and sadly some cases thing, is our whole world. Our salvation, the focus of our love, our life. It is a realization that you must surrender yourself to Him and give yourself completely to Him. It is praising Him for creating the universe, my family, and friends, and the people I love. It is realizing that everything good in my life comes from Him, and as such He deserves my everything. Adoration is seeing that whom/which you are adoring is your way, your truth, your life.

This is a simplified as I can make it. I didn't cut and past this, and as such it may not be as clear as I wished.

ImaginaryDay · Aug 23, 2013

Tzaousios said:
Thanks for fixing it. However, what do you think about the point I was making? It does not matter what the distinction is according to Pteriax's presuppositions.

I guess in answering (somewhat snidely - my apologies) I was trying to side-step him a bit and find out for my own information. To me, the line between the two seems infinitely small to the point that the believer may not be able to discern what side they stand on. Especially in the case of Mary the lines seem to blur to the point that the venerate/worship question disappears and it seems blatantly clear. The Church may teach 'veneration', but in practice...

Erose · Aug 23, 2013

Albion said:
Do you pray to them and say they can change the course of heavenly or Earthly events by their own authority?

We didn't think so.

What does this mean exactly?

Metal Minister · Aug 23, 2013

Root of Jesse said:
The idea that Revelation, or any passage of Scripture, only has one meaning is false. Jesus calls his mother woman to honor her. It's also an indication that she is sinless. The mother of mankind had no name until she sinned. After she sinned, Adam named her Eve. Mary participated in Christ's redemptive work by saying "Yes" to God's request.

Why do you keep ignoring what I've already explained to you? Would it be honoring to your mother to call her "woman"? No, of course not! The whole idea of Mary being sinless has been beaten to death, and proved incorrect so many times, I'm not going to get into it again here. As to your "scripture has multiple meanings" please, provide a few that mean more than one thing, and lay them out. You've made a claim, please back it up.

Erose · Aug 23, 2013

apostolic34 said:
I guess in answering (somewhat snidely - my apologies) I was trying to side-step him a bit and find out for my own information. To me, the line between the two seems infinitely small to the point that the believer may not be able to discern what side they stand on. Especially in the case of Mary the lines seem to blur to the point that the venerate/worship question disappears and it seems blatantly clear. The Church may teach 'veneration', but in practice...

I think one of the problems that I think that many Evangelicals and most Protestants have is that prayer is always equated to adoration, and for Catholics that is not the case. Prayer is used in adoring the Lord, no doubt; but the purest definition of prayer is communication between one spirit to another, or one person to another. In the modern world, prayer's definition has slimmed down quite a bit, but traditionally the word prayer, basically meant making a supplication to another.

If you are truly interested in this view point then I would recommend the Catechism as a reference. I believe it does a very good job explaining our understanding of veneration and adoration.

Erose · Aug 23, 2013

Metal Minister said:
Why do you keep ignoring what I've already explained to you? Would it be honoring to your mother to call her "woman"? No, of course not!

Unless it is used as a title, no? Honestly MM why would you accuse Jesus of violating a Commandment?

Metal Minister said:
The whole idea of Mary being sinless has been beaten to death, and proved incorrect so many times, I'm not going to get into it again here.

Do you have an example of a sin she committed? Just one to prove you point; but the idea that it has been proven incorrect so many times, is ridiculous to say the least.

Pteriax · Aug 23, 2013

Erose said:
No bowing and praying can be used in worship, but by themselves they are not worship. I have already shown to you Abraham and Jacob bowing to other people as a sign of respect and honor.

Still trying to get through Exodus I see. Here I will help you just a tiny bit, since you have got to that part yet:

Ex 25: [16] And thou shalt put in the ark the testimony which I will give thee. [17] Thou shalt make also a propitiatory (ark-cover) of the purest gold: the length thereof shall be two cubits and a half, and the breadth a cubit and a half. [18] Thou shalt make also two cherubim of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. [19] Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. [20] Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered.

What is God doing telling Moses to make images of cherubim to put upon the lid of the Ark of the Covenant? Hum

How about in the Temple?

1Kings 6: [21] And the house before the oracle he overlaid with most pure gold, and fastened on the plates with nails of gold. [22] And there was nothing in the temple that was not covered with gold: the whole altar of the oracle he covered also with gold. [23] And he made in the oracle two cherubims of olive tree, of ten cubits in height. [24] One wing of the cherub was five cubits, and the other wing of the cherub was five cubits: that is, in all ten cubits, from the extremity of one wing to the extremity of the other wing. [25] The second cherub also was ten cubits: and the measure, and the work was the same in both the cherubims:

[26] That is to say, one cherub was ten cubits high, and in like manner the other cherub. [27] And he set the cherubims in the midst of the inner temple: and the cherubims stretched forth their wings, and the wing of the one touched one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall: and the other wings in the midst of the temple touched one another. [28] And he overlaid the cherubims with gold. [29] And all the walls of the temple round about he carved with divers figures and carvings: and he made in them cherubims and palm trees, and divers representations, as it were standing out, and coming forth from the wall. [30] And the floor of the house he also overlaid with gold within and without. [31] And in the entrance of the oracle he made little doors of olive tree, and posts of five corners, [32] And two doors of olive tree: and he carved upon them figures of cherubims, and figures of palm trees, and carvings very much projecting: and he overlaid them with gold: and he covered both the cherubims and the palm trees, and the other things with gold. [33] And he made in the entrance of the temple posts of olive tree foursquare: [34] And two doors of fir tree, one of each side: and each door was double, and so opened with folding leaves. [35] And he carved cherubims, and palm trees, and carved work standing very much out: and he overlaid all with golden plates in square work by rule.

Like I said, maybe you should do just a little bit more research on this subject, as you don't seem to grasp, what God was really commanding.

I'll help you get started. Idols are those things that one adores equal to or more than God. Idols can be statues and pictures no doubt, but idols also come in the form of ideals, governments, celebrities, etc.

Images and icons in the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, display either a heavenly or biblical scene and are meant to help the person meditating (not eastern meditation) upon that event or the virtues of that person, or whatever may be good and right to do. Like I offered as an example before, it is like someone using a picture(s) to help them remember good times in the past or a person that they either have buried or haven't seen in a while. Icons and images are just like that. To help focus the attention on what those icons and images represent, not on the images themselves.

When I meditate on an image of the Crucifix, I am not worshipping the crucifix, but rather using it as a means to help me imagine the events around the crucifix, and the death of our Lord. The incredible suffering my Lord went through for me. To save me. To redeem me. Everytime I see a crucifix, it forces me to recall these truths, and never forget them.

In Catholic and Orthodox churches, we use things to excite the senses, sights, sounds, smells, things to touch. Why because these things help us call to mind where we are truly at when we are in Church celebrating the Divine Liturgy or Mass. For we believe that when we are celebrating the sacred rituals, we are no longer just on earth in a building; but rather we are in the presence of God at his throne. We are in heaven at Mass and the Divine Liturgy, and these things we use to excite the senses, helps us call to mind that this is were we are at.

All those words and none of them answer my question.

What prophet of God said that God told him you were to make these images? Because that's how it happened in Exodus.

Pteriax · Aug 23, 2013

Root of Jesse said:
Mary is the type of the Church, so we agree.

No she is not, no we do not.

Root of Jesse said:
There's a difference between saying Jesus had brothers, and saying Mary had other children.

No, there is not. It is quite literally the same thing.

Root of Jesse said:
She wouldn't be in heaven if she wasn't/isn't sinless. And there is no doubt that she's in heaven. Jesus followed the commandment to honor His mother...

Well, if you have to be sinless to get to heaven it will be a very lonely place

Albion · Aug 23, 2013

apostolic34 said:
Especially in the case of Mary the lines seem to blur to the point that the venerate/worship question disappears and it seems blatantly clear. The Church may teach 'veneration', but in practice...

That's a key point in all of this. Any church that's engaged in questionable practices is of course going to find a way of wording its explanation so that it sounds benign.

Pteriax · Aug 23, 2013

Root of Jesse said:
It's also an indication that she is sinless. The mother of mankind had no name until she sinned. After she sinned, Adam named her Eve. Mary participated in Christ's redemptive work by saying "Yes" to God's request.

This is just about the biggest load of hogwash I have seen a Catholic say. There is no conceivable way to justify that with scripture. In other words if scripture can be made to say that, it can equally be made to say absolutely anything. I can't believe you think this is a valid defense of your position.

ViaCrucis · Aug 23, 2013

Albion said:
Do you pray to them and say they can change the course of heavenly or Earthly events by their own authority?

We didn't think so.

My response was intended to be in relation to the claim that there's no difference between veneration and adoration; and that to venerate anything other than God constitutes something as "Pagan". If Roman Catholics are Pagan because they revere and venerate the Saints, then I am likewise culpable, as I also hold reverence toward the saints who have come before us; I likewise venerate the Holy Scriptures as God's written word. I venerate my parents, as God commands we show our parents honor and due reverence. My mother is no longer with us, as she passed on years ago, but I certainly pray she is looking down on my family, and stands in the Lord's presence offering prayers on our behalf.

So, I think my comment stands--I must also be "Pagan". Though in truth the accusation of "Pagan" is meant to be nothing more than inflammatory rhetoric, a means to deny the basic Christianity of Roman Catholics in order to justify certain prejudices without ever actually addressing legitimate matters.

One can say that Roman Catholics, in offering the Blessed Virgin mother of our Lord hyper-dulia they go too far, and I think that's an honest critique. One cannot say that Roman Catholics consider her a goddess, a divine being on par with the Holy Trinity, since that is blatantly untrue.

Oh, I'm sure that there are some Catholics who go too far in that direction, ascribing to the Virgin a certain sort of divinity; but then again, I've met and am familiar with some Protestants who have explicitly (on the basis of John chapter 1, verse 1) declared the Bible to be God Himself. It's not mainstream, it's obviously on the fringe, and I'm not accusing anyone here of having done that; but yes I have seen very explicit words stating precisely this.

Here's the most grievous example I can think of:

"Jesus is the Word , the Bible is God, the Bible is Jesus" - Pastor Steven L. Anderson - YouTube

-CryptoLutheran

Pteriax · Aug 23, 2013

Erose said:
Yes I can Pteriax:

1st veneration: Veneration is giving unique honor and respect for someone. Examples of veneration are simple to find:

We are called to honor our parents, to place them a very unique place of respect in our lives. Why because they are the material reason for you existence and they raised you up and took care of you when you couldn't.

We are called to honor our spouses as well. We are to establish a unique relationship with them that we have with no other person. Flesh of our flesh, bones of our bones.

We are respect our lawful leader's and their positions of authority. Why? Primarily they have authority over you, but for other reasons as well. You know render to Caesar.

We also find ourselves venerating and respecting people that we call heroes in our lives, whether it is someone iconic like Martin Luther King Jr., or Bill Graham, or Lady Gaga; but it can also be some in our personal lives: maybe a coach who took you under his wing, or a teacher that spent some time with you, or uncle Jack because he always took you fishing, or an older brother, who took up for you on the playground.

Some of us also venerate saints and Mary. Why? Well there are a few reasons why I do, and they are:
1) They give me evidence that I can do it. If the saints can become Christ-like as we are called to be, then why not me? One can always find a saint with a similar background to them, who surrendered themselves to God and became like the moon to His sun, reflecting God's beauty and majesty into the world.
2) These men and women give us guideposts on how to apply what Jesus taught in the Gospels. They are people to emulate because they emulated Jesus.
3) The ancients venerated these men and women, because of the very fact that they were living, breathing images of Christ. Because of this incredible bond with Christ, these men and women were in a very unique way Christ, and as such they venerated Christ through these men and women.
4) Concerning Mary, she does hold a very unique place among the saints, and since the beginning she was singled out by Christians. Why? Well that is obvious, no one have ever lived on earth, who was so tied to the Son of God, as the mother who bore and raised Him. Because of that, and also due to the efficacy of her intercession over the centuries, that veneration has grown.

Now Adoration. Adoration includes veneration, as we must venerate our Lord to adore Him, but adoration goes much further than veneration. In adoration, we realize that the Person, and sadly some cases thing, is our whole world. Our salvation, the focus of our love, our life. It is a realization that you must surrender yourself to Him and give yourself completely to Him. It is praising Him for creating the universe, my family, and friends, and the people I love. It is realizing that everything good in my life comes from Him, and as such He deserves my everything. Adoration is seeing that whom/which you are adoring is your way, your truth, your life.

This is a simplified as I can make it. I didn't cut and past this, and as such it may not be as clear as I wished.

apostolic34 said:
I guess in answering (somewhat snidely - my apologies) I was trying to side-step him a bit and find out for my own information. To me, the line between the two seems infinitely small to the point that the believer may not be able to discern what side they stand on. Especially in the case of Mary the lines seem to blur to the point that the venerate/worship question disappears and it seems blatantly clear. The Church may teach 'veneration', but in practice...

Seems clear to me. A line so fine that you can't even see it to know which side you are on.

Pteriax · Aug 23, 2013

Erose said:
I think one of the problems that I think that many Evangelicals and most Protestants have is that prayer is always equated to adoration, and for Catholics that is not the case. Prayer is used in adoring the Lord, no doubt; but the purest definition of prayer is communication between one spirit to another, or one person to another. In the modern world, prayer's definition has slimmed down quite a bit, but traditionally the word prayer, basically meant making a supplication to another.

If you are truly interested in this view point then I would recommend the Catechism as a reference. I believe it does a very good job explaining our understanding of veneration and adoration.

Where does anyone in the Bible pray to anyone but God, except the pagans?

Albion · Aug 23, 2013

Erose said:
What does this mean exactly?

It means that when prayers to saints--Mary included but not the only one--that include testimonies to the ability of that saint to deliver, on their own, what is asked for or, in some cases, what supposedly was promised by them before...

...the petitioner is NOT merely venerating that saint, his memory, etc. He's attributing to him or her a power that only God has.

What's more, it isn't made any better if you say that they are just administering the distribution of benefits on behalf of God. One example is the very popular belief among Roman Catholics that Mary is the "dispenser of all graces" by which it is explained that no good thing comes to us (from God) unless Mary first approves of it!

Whatever you call it, that is a wrongful practice.

Erose · Aug 23, 2013

Pteriax said:
I didn't say you did. I said only God is omnipresent. In order to answer or even hear the thousands of prayers to her in any given moment Mary would have to be omnipresent.

You didn't say in a previous post that we, Catholics, view Mary as a goddess? Or that we worship her? Hum?

Concerning Mary, hearing prayers, one question for you. If God decides to give someone in heaven the means of hearing all these prayers, do you think that this is beyond Him to do? Seriously, do you really have any concept of what we will be able to do and not do in heaven? You are limiting God here.

Pteriax said:
Of course I have. What prophet of God said that God told him you were to make these images? Because that's how it happened in Exodus.

We have both Exodus and 1st Kings as evidence that your understanding that all images are idols is false. Please just accept the education and let us move on.

Pteriax · Aug 23, 2013

Erose said:
You didn't say in a previous post that we, Catholics, view Mary as a goddess? Or that we worship her? Hum?

I never said you view her as a goddess. I said you bow to her statues and pray to her. I also said that she is not omnipresent, which is a requirement for a being to be able to answer prayers, so the RCC must think she is omnipresent. I corrected that notion by saying that only God is omnipresent. Again, I did not say that you think she is a goddess.

Erose said:
Concerning Mary, hearing prayers, one question for you. If God decides to give someone in heaven the means of hearing all these prayers, do you think that this is beyond Him to do? Seriously, do you really have any concept of what we will be able to do and not do in heaven? You are limiting God here.

No, you are limiting God. You limit Him by claiming He needs all these saints to help answer prayers and dispense grace.

Erose said:
We have both Exodus and 1st Kings as evidence that your understanding that all images are idols is false. Please just accept the education and let us move on.

God said through His prophet to make certain specific images. I ask again, when did God tell the RCC through a prophet to make statues of Mary and bow to them?

Erose · Aug 23, 2013

Pteriax said:
All those words and none of them answer my question.

What prophet of God said that God told him you were to make these images? Because that's how it happened in Exodus.

Sometimes it takes a miracle to cure blindness.

Pteriax you claimed that all images are idols, I have shown you from Scripture that this isn't the case.

We also have from those same Scriptures, (which I do highly recommend to you to finish reading Exodus, and then read Leviticus as well), that the people of Isreal were to view all the instruments and tools and sacrifices given to the Lord as sacred and holy, and to treat them as such. Don't forget how sacred the Ark of the Covenant was? That a man was killed by God for touching it.

Are you claiming that there is nothing left that isn't sacred?

Erose · Aug 23, 2013

Albion said:
It means that when prayers to saints--Mary included but not the only one--that include testimonies to the ability of that saint to deliver, on their own, what is asked for or, in some cases, what supposedly was promised by them before...

...the petitioner is NOT merely venerating that saint, his memory, etc. He's attributing to him or her a power that only God has.

What's more, it isn't made any better if you say that they are just administering the distribution of benefits on behalf of God. One example is the very popular belief among Roman Catholics that Mary is the "dispenser of all graces" by which it is explained that no good thing comes to us (from God) unless Mary first approves of it!

Whatever you call it, that is a wrongful practice.

Albion, you truly do not have a full understanding of this. It is via their intercessions, not their power or ability, that prayers are answered. The key word here is intercession.

What the petitioner is attributing to the saint, is their superior relationship to the Lord, that He will answer their prayers.

sonshine234 · Aug 23, 2013

Rev Randy said:
Is this Protestant idol worship?

Yep

Pteriax · Aug 23, 2013

Erose said:
Sometimes it takes a miracle to cure blindness.

Pteriax you claimed that all images are idols, I have shown you from Scripture that this isn't the case.

We also have from those same Scriptures, (which I do highly recommend to you to finish reading Exodus, and then read Leviticus as well), that the people of Isreal were to view all the instruments and tools and sacrifices given to the Lord as sacred and holy, and to treat them as such. Don't forget how sacred the Ark of the Covenant was? That a man was killed by God for touching it.

Are you claiming that there is nothing left that isn't sacred?

Okay, God told the people to do all of that through the prophet Moses. The RCC decided on its own apart from God to create statues and bow to them. See the difference? The RCC speaks presumptuously in this case. God never told you to do it, He expressly forbade it, and yet you persist in doing it.

What errors and inventions arose in Roman Catholicism?

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