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What else do I lose if I give up on a young earth?

KerrMetric

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No appeal to authority is a fallacy because you can have all the quals in the world and still be wrong. A position of authority on a subject does not by defacto make you right.
No but it has more weight attached to it.
It is you that misunderstands. only the argument matters not quals. If you cannot refute the argument so then begin attacking the person. This is fallacious and inadmissible as an argument.
Again, it is not attacking the person to question their background in a given area.
I'll take a doctor with only a degree who has taken out a thousand appendixes over a PHD graduate any day.
Of course. But I'll take a PhD chemist over a doctor when it comes to chemistry.
Ever wondered why expert witnesses can be found to contradict so called expert witnesses?
But that is not the argument here. The point is they don't bring in an expert witness on DNA who is a car mechanic by profession. On science issues you are the car mechanic it seems.
That aside, if someone is right, they are right regardless of what quals someone else who disagrees with them holds. To say someone who is wrong is right because of the qauls they hold is entirely fallacious and well, wrong ...
I don't disagree with this - but you are wrong in your assertions about science - i.e. it is about proof or 90% of evidence is young earth. And what is rock to man? Never heard evolution given that extreme a strawman - usually it is the AIG silly from goo to you via the zoo.
One assumption that springs to mind is that the amount of decay at beginning is zero or near enough to zero. However observable science has proven that the clock is never zero.
I think I know what you are alluding to but your language is fuzzy here. Be clearer.
 
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tyronem

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No but it has more weight attached to it.

Again, it is not attacking the person to question their background in a given area.

Still ad-hominem, still attacking the person (Persons background / quals is the person) rather than the position.

For example if someone with a doctorate in Christian Theology who has published a million books and journals denied the deity of Christ, then when challenged by a regular Joe blogs just said oh you don't have the quals to back yourself, therefore because I have the PHD and I'm published I am right or most likely to be right everyone should believe me.

Though a vulgar example illustrates that the someone making an appeal to their own authority (or the non-authority of another) in no way affects the position nor the argument, case in point the deity of Christ. The argument to be valid must therefore focus on the position and the refutation of the position not the person.

Of course. But I'll take a PhD chemist over a doctor when it comes to chemistry.

I'll take neither up front, take advice from both, research each position then make my decision. To do otherwise IMO would be philosophically unsound.

But that is not the argument here. The point is they don't bring in an expert witness on DNA who is a car mechanic by profession. On science issues you are the car mechanic it seems.

Hypothetically even if a car mechanic was also the worlds expert on DNA but had no quals and nothing published he still would not be brought into the court room. I can tell you why too. It is because the fallacy of appeal to authority is an effective tool as are many fallacies for convincing the unwary Judge and Jury. If someone can bring in a PHD in molecular DNA that has published 50 books and 500 scientific reviewed papers versus a PHD in molecular DNA with no publishings yet, then people will naturally gravitate their opinion to the "more experienced" / "more authoritative" of the two regardless of whether they are actually right. Court is as much of a mind game with the Judge and Jury as it is about the evidence. David Bain is proof of that.

I don't disagree with this - but you are wrong in your assertions about science - i.e. it is about proof or 90% of evidence is young earth. And what is rock to man? Never heard evolution given that extreme a strawman - usually it is the AIG silly from goo to you via the zoo.

lol, I'll have to remember that one, Goo to you via the zoo, has a nice ring about it...

I am taking the mickey somewhat on Rock to Man, but if you think about it. "It rained on the rocks for millions of years" "Then chemicals leached out of the rocks" "Which then formed the complex soup" ..... "which eventually became man after billions of years". Hence Rock to man....

There is also that theory that holes in rocks formed cellular walls before cells could form their own cellular walls. I'm taking the mickey somewhat out of that too....

Yes I'm aware that is abiogenesis and evolutionists like to try to draw a line in the sand and say evolution only applies when life got here the reality is different for atheistic evolution. As for theistic evolutionists, where exactly they start their evolution journey varies greatly. To be honest I do applaud theistic evolutionists in their rejection of the atheistic agenda of secular evolutionists because the only thing that could possibly make evolution possible is if it was guided and instrumented by God, probability without this guidance and instrumentation of evolution occurring by natural random means is so small it is zero.



[/QUOTE]
 
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Nathan Poe

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Equivalent to an exact copy of the same object, that sat untouched by anything for the same amount of time (4.57 billion years).

But if an object sat "untouched by anything," there'd be no way to determine that it sat for 4.57 billion years. Indeed, it is because we can observe and measure the effects of the passage of time -- the things that did touch it -- that we can measure something's age.

This "copy" of yours was made to look and act as if it had been affected by time and the elements for 4.57 billion years -- except it never was.

It's an impressive counterfeit -- completely indistinguishable from the real thing -- but a counterfeit nonetheless.
 
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Nathan Poe

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To be honest I do applaud theistic evolutionists in their rejection of the atheistic agenda of secular evolutionists because the only thing that could possibly make evolution possible is if it was guided and instrumented by God,

How do you figure?

probability without this guidance and instrumentation of evolution occurring by natural random means is so small it is zero.

Now, I'm no math expert, but the only thing that's zero is zero. Since the probability of natural selection is greater than zero, it is not zero.
 
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KerrMetric

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Still ad-hominem, still attacking the person (Persons background / quals is the person) rather than the position.
But is not a fallacy. Questioning and thereby establishing relevant expertise even if seen as attacking is not a logical fallacy. Never has been and never will be. This has been recognised in debate and courts of law for centuries. The reason for bringing up such a challenge is when presented with statements that are wrong.
I'll take neither up front, take advice from both, research each position then make my decision. To do otherwise IMO would be philosophically unsound.
This is not how people work 99% of the time. There is no way you can do the research on all but the simplest of examples therefore that is why "experts" exist. To do it for you.
Hypothetically even if a car mechanic was also the worlds expert on DNA but had no quals and nothing published he still would not be brought into the court room. I can tell you why too. It is because the fallacy of appeal to authority is an effective tool as are many fallacies for convincing the unwary Judge and Jury.
Appeal to authority is NOT a fallacy. Appeal to inappropriate authority is. Again, this is accepted debate practice in a formal setting. Sure, you can contrive an example as you did - but in almost all situations expert opinion has more credibility then non-expert.

You strike me as someone who has learned the names of a few so called logical fallacies so as to use them as ammunition in a debate arena that you have no expertise in - yet in doing so you are using them incorrectly. All the so called fallacies you mentioned can certainly be fallacies when committed in a certain manner - but they are not fallacies when used in an appropriate sense.

Appealing to Stephen Hawking on black hole physics is not a logical fallacy. Appealing to Jay Leno on black hole physics is.
 
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super animator

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Appealing to Stephen Hawking on black hole physics is not a logical fallacy. Appealing to Jay Leno on black hole physics is.
Not takings sides, but I'm going to let this website do all the talking to show why it's still consider to be a fallacy. (It address some points that you made)
 
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KerrMetric

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Not takings sides, but I'm going to let this website do all the talking to show why it's still consider to be a fallacy. (It address some points that you made)

That site agrees with my position.

Weblink said:
Since not all arguments from expert opinion are fallacious, some authorities on logic have taken to labelling this fallacy as "appeal to inappropriate or irrelevant or questionable authority", rather than the traditional name "appeal to authority". For the same reason, I use the name "appeal to misleading authority" to distinguish fallacious from non-fallacious arguments from authority.
 
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ToBeInChrist

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The fact is the age of the Earth studies or evolution is every bit as scientific as solid state physics and organic chemistry.

"Scientific" is an adjective. There are scientific ways to approach a subject, even a subject that is historical or philosophical.

The reliability of scientific methods when used to build a bridge is different than the reliability of scientific methods used in other pursuits that deal with ancient times, very large or very small things, or human factors.
 
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Papias

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super wrote:
Not takings sides, but I'm going to let this website do all the talking to show why it's still consider to be a fallacy. (It address some points that you made)

It's good you didn't take sides, because the website you cited showed exactly how Kerrmetric is right.

It's also explained on other fallacy sites too, such as Argument from authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which explains concisely that asking an expert is right given that:

  • X is a legitimate expert on the subject.
  • The consensus of experts agrees with X.
Note that creationists often fail on either or both of these points when using "expert" testimony.

Papias
 
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KerrMetric

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The reliability of scientific methods when used to build a bridge is different than the reliability of scientific methods used in other pursuits that deal with ancient times, very large or very small things.....
How so? And you need to be careful answering this because it is real easy to paint yourself into a corner with this topic.
 
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ToBeInChrist

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It is sensible to cite someone who is recognized to have mastered the available facts and theoretical positions, who is recognized as expert in the field by others with signficant knowledge, yes.

But something is not true just because such experts say something is true.

So it depends not just on the citing of an authority, but also what is made of the citation. I know computers, I'm certified, and others recognize my certification, but when I'm wrong I'm wrong, and there may be times when all the computer experts are wrong.
 
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KerrMetric

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It is sensible to cite someone who is recognized to have mastered the available facts and theoretical positions, who is recognized as expert in the field by others with signficant knowledge, yes.

But something is not true just because such experts say something is true.

So it depends not just on the citing of an authority, but also what is made of the citation. I know computers, I'm certified, and others recognize my certification, but when I'm wrong I'm wrong, and there may be times when all the computer experts are wrong.

We are in agreement here.
 
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miamited

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Ok, so now that you guys have completely shredded each others arguments regarding what does and doesn't constitute valid corroborating testimony. Let's get back to the question at hand. What does one give up when turning from young earth creationism, to old earth creationism or purely non-god evolution? I think that's the question that splayd asked. Or as I understand it, what he's seeking to find out.

Personally, I like the explanation that God created the earth 6,000 years ago and at it's creation it had the appearance, by any scientific measures, of appearing 4.57 billion years old. Just as He created Adam 6 days short of the real age of the earth and on Adam's first day of life he appeared, by any scientific measure that we have today, to be 20 or so years old. I can accept that.

Of course the next argument to reach is that the earth is the oldest heavenly body in the universe. Oh, I can't wait to hear all the 'scientific' proofs to come out of that one.

God bless you all,
In Christ, Ted
 
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AV1611VET

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Of course the next argument to reach is that the earth is the oldest heavenly body in the universe. Oh, I can't wait to hear all the 'scientific' proofs to come out of that one.
Well ... technically ... the earth is the oldest existential heavenly body in the universe.

If, for example, God only embedded 50 million years into it, then embedded 5 billion years into the sun, then the sun would be much older physically, but the earth would be older existentially.
 
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chris4243

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If you teach YEC to your kids and teach them a love of true science then thats great. If you are wrong you will find out in Heaven, no drama. God is not going to punish you or your kids for putting forward YEC.

If you cause someone's faith to stumble by insisting that salvation requires the belief in blatant falsehoods, things might not be as rosy as you imagine.

Matthew 18:6-7
[ Causing to Stumble ] “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!

Unless you can be certain that the young one will not take up the study of biology or geology past a very limited overview, you risk that they learn the truth about reality. If you told them that were evolution and old earth true they'd have to drop Christianity, perhaps they will once they learn the truth. Best that they are told the truth from the beginning, and that they see non-literal things for what they are.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Here's my question though...

Which doctrines/theological teachings require a young earth?
ie: If I tug at this thread, is there a whole heap of other theological issues that must arise as a result?

As I hope you've seen by now, the only things you lose will be things you're far better off without.

I can't think of a better way to mature in your faith and develop a deeper, more meaningful relationship with the divine than to accept God and man's respective handiworks for what they are, and jettison absurd notions that the faithful will throw in your face to keep you beholden to them (not to God).

Ask yourself: Would God demand that your heart accept that which your mind rejects? No?

EDITED TO ADD: Whoops -- I didn't notice this thread had been moved to the Christians-only section. My bad.
 
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