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What Does Universal Salvation Mean?

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RaymondG

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A disciple is a follower of Christ. I find that if a person "comes to Christ" because of my interpretation of what I've read in the bible....They would then be followers/believers of my doctrine and not students of Christ. I feel that the best witness would be for me to live the life God wants me to live.........That men may see my good works and glorify the father which is in heaven. Any other way would help produce the feeling of "I lead people to Christ," When this is not possible.

When you are shown the truth, you know it....just like you know your name.......we dont think about saying i believe my name is.....we say this is my name. We are free to share this with full assurance that we arent leading anyone astray.......But if you feel that you will be met with positivity and gratefulness after revealing this truth.....you are mistaken....You will be treated just like Jesus was after he revealed it to the pharisees. And you will feel no joy in this persecution.....
 
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Hillsage

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I am familiar with the 'God Journey' and had actually gone there, for the first time, not too long ago. I have to admit I listened to enough of their podcast to decide not to come back. I have a 75% hearing loss and severe tinnitus. So when two people 'kind of talk at the same time' or 'over one another', I'm pretty lost. Wayne/Brad did that enough, it wasn't my cup of tea. How disappointing to hear this though. I wish you knew which podcast for sure. I did love Wayne's book 'So you don't want to go to Church anymore'. But I have also come to have a great deal of respect for Paul and his theological depth of understanding from the many things I've been exposed to. Thanks for your feedback.

Also appreciate how you are handling this thread.
 
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ClementofA

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"The doctrine of the final restoration of all souls seems to have been not uncommon in the East during the fourth and fifth centuries."

That quote is a bit of an understatement:

"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."

"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822). Didache mentions the ways of life and death, but not eternal death or torment; Ignatius, as others among “the 68,” never mentions eternal punishment. Ephrem does not speak of eternal damnation, but has many hints of healing and restoration. For Theodore of Mopsuestia, another of “the 68,” if one takes into account also the Syriac and Latin evidence, given that the Greek is mostly lost, it becomes impossible to list him among the antiuniversalists. He explicitly ruled out unending retributive punishment, sine fine et sine correctione."

"I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage), Eusebius, Nazianzen, perhaps even Basil and Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome before his change of mind, and Augustine in his anti-Manichaean years. Maximus too, another of “the 68,” speaks only of punishment aionios, not aidios and talks about restoration with circumspection after Justinian, also using a persona to express it. Torstein Tollefsen, Panayiotis Tzamalikos, and Maria Luisa Gatti, for instance, agree that he affirmed apokatastasis."

"It is not the case that “the support for universalism is paltry compared with opposition to it” (p. 823). Not only were “the 68” in fact fewer than 68, and not only did many “uncertain” in fact support apokatastasis, but the theologians who remain in the list of antiuniversalists tend to be much less important. Look at the theological weight of Origen, the Cappadocians, Athanasius, or Maximus, for instance, on all of whom much of Christian doctrine and dogmas depends. Or think of the cultural significance of Eusebius, the spiritual impact of Evagrius or Isaac of Nineveh, or the philosophico-theological importance of Eriugena, the only author of a comprehensive treatise of systematic theology and theoretical philosophy between Origen’s Peri Archon and Aquinas’s Summa theologiae. Then compare, for instance, Barsanuphius, Victorinus of Pettau, Gaudentius of Brescia, Maximus of Turin, Tyconius, Evodius of Uzala, or Orientius, listed among “the 68” (and mostly ignorant of Greek). McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters."

"Certainly, “there was a diversity of views in the early church on the scope of final salvation.” Tertullian, for instance, did not embrace apokatastasis. But my monograph is not on patristic eschatology or soteriology in general, but specifically on the doctrine of apokatastasis. Thus, I treated the theologians who supported it, and not others."

The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: The Reviews Start Coming In

However, although Early Church Fathers & church history are interesting, they are not inspired. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would suffer endless torments in fire, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is a sadist for all eternity.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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AlexDTX

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Just letting you know I read your response. I need to think about what you said.
 
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ClementofA

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So, here we go again, citing scholarly sources from experts who disagree.

Did your source comment on the Basil & Augustine remarks?

Your quote of Chrysostom said there were "many men" believing hell is "temporary".
 
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DennisTate

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Do a search for the near death experience of Dr. George Ritchie and you will see what I mean about higher invisible dimensions of space - time that according to String Theory, would be invisible to beings in a lower dimension.
 
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Hillsage

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I was unable to find support for Schaff's position. In my historical resources, I actually found the exact opposite conclusions. Perhaps you can post Schaff's cited sources for this information?
Then maybe you just need to find support for Schaff's credibility as an author. That's what I did.

That's because the religious power and corruption of the church of Rome was almost complete. But not quite. The Political Religious history of that church in that day is simply that...history. Study it and it's no small wonder that Martin Luther escaped to bring the truths he did to the reformation. Biggest mistake he made was taking eternal hell and leaving behind purgatory IMO. Not that I think it's a true doctrine either personally....just adding a bit of levity.

Prove that "Origins logic of his whole system was influenced by Platonism." That is merely a subjective ploy of men a thousand years after trying to defend their own Roman indoctrination IMO. Origins influence on the Catholic church was so pronounced that they later reneged on saying he was a heretic because "he didn't realize what he was saying wasn't true." SERIOUSLY????? Well that was the lame excuse given in a book written by a well accepted Catholic theologian, anyway. The book was loaned to me by a pastor who was trying to disprove UR to me. Didn't work.

You mention Augustine's big influence concerning this issue. Big indeed, it was he who made the final blow declaring the definition of the word aionios meant eternity to end universalisms hold over Rome's. Big move by a guy who wasn't a scholar in Greek. He was a Latin scholar, defending the doctrine of Rome. And with the power of the church over, guess what lens all the researchers today have to read through, to try and make sense 1500 years later. THAT'S why modern scholarship is gaining since the 1900's. It's not because we started the doctrine of the great apostasy, that started 1500 years ago.

That's why the word HELL is in the:
Authorized King James Version 54x
New King James Version 32x
American Standard Version 13x
New American Standard Bible 13x
Revised Standard Version 12x

Where did HELL disappear to with modern scholarship of the 1900's? And even then, it's there 32X or 13X or 12X....what in HELL is that all about?

And, as prolific and influential as Augustine was, in the church of his day....do you know the final message of his deathbed?

"On his deathbed, surrounded by his closest friends, as Augustine slipped away to be with the Lord, his breath ceased, his heart stopped, and a wonderful sense of peace filled the room. Suddenly his eyes reopened, and with his face aglow he declared to those friends, “I have seen the Lord. All I have written is but straw.

OH yes, the nominal church will still opine 'his words were inspired because he saw the GLORY OF GOD.' Pshaw, he 'saw the truth' and the church still doesn't. I do admit, this last thought is also, just an opinion...but it's mine.
 
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ClementofA

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"Eternal punishment was firmly asserted in official creeds and confessions of the churches. It must have seemed as indispensable a part of universal Christian belief as the doctrines of the Trinity and the incarnation."

This comment seems like nonsense in light of "eternal punishment" being absent from the Apostles Creed, and in light of his own remark here:


So it took 5 centuries for "the church" to finally condemn universalism?

And then immediately followed dark ages for over a millenium.
 
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AlexDTX

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Do a search for the near death experience of Dr. George Ritchie and you will see what I mean about higher invisible dimensions of space - time that according to String Theory, would be invisible to beings in a lower dimension.
Still don't see the relevance. There are all kinds of testimonies, but none compare to a More Sure Word (2 Pet 1:19). Even the theories of Creation Science I don't put my stock in, although I find them more believable since they begin their theories with the Bible.
 
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AlexDTX

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Hi Deadworm! I've been busy on my job so have not been on the thread that I started for a few days.

(1) Why assume that God stops loving the unsaved after they die? And if He continues to love them, why wouldn't He create opportunities to respond to His grace and be transformed by it? In other words, why would a loving God give up on anyone?

I don't think anyone makes that assumption. God is love and loves His enemies. However, I think the problem is how God set up His creation. All opportunities are in this life. My understanding of why Jesus told the parable (I don't believe it is a true story, although many people do) of the Rich Man and Lazarus was to make clear that what we believe in this life is what we will believe in the next life. This is why Abraham told the Rich Man that his family had Moses and the Prophets, if they did not believe in this life, they would not believe someone who came back from the dead (Luke 16:31). It seems to me that when Jesus proclaimed the Gospel to the dead (1 Tim. 3:16, 1 Pet. 3:19 & 4:6) not all came up. Only those who died believing in the promise of the Messiah (Heb. 11:39) came out of the grave (Matt. 27:52 -53). It is not a matter of God being unwilling, it is a matter of how life works.


I don't think your interpretation of Lewis's statement is correct. Or maybe it is, but I think it means that they stay there because of what I said above. They can not fathom release because they do not believe in the mercy of God. They stay because they justify themselves, and do not let God justify them though Christ.


Every will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord simply because the Truth will be known to all, but that does not mean they will repent. James said that the demons believe in God, too, (James 2:19) and tremble. The implication is that they can not repent, or they would. All who end up in the Lake of Fire will do so because of their own choice of which they can not change after death.

Speaking of the Lake of Fire, I do not believe it is a place of punishment, but instead is a place of containment. It was not created for mankind, but for Lucifer and his fallen angels according to Jesus (Matt. 25:41) who as everlasting spirits can not die. Likewise we have spirits that can not cease to exist. And we are born dead (Matt. 8:22, Eph. 2:1), and even though our spirits make us look alive in our youth, aging after maturation shows the dying process we all are already going through. I think the expression Jesus used, "where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched" (Mark 9:44-48) illustrates the natural process of decomposition of the body in the ground. Rust is oxidization, or the burning of metal. In my opinion, the Lake of Fire refers to the choice of those who love death (Prov. 8:36) and they get what they want.
 
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AlexDTX

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So, you believe the PRIMARY purpose of the Gospel is to keep humanity from going to hell?
I am backtracking in my reading, and if I answered this already, please excuse me.

I don't believe that at all. I believe the primary purpose of the Gospel was to open the door (John 10:9) to a new humanity of which Jesus is the first fruits (1 Cor. 15:20 & 23). This new humanity is a partaker in the divine nature himself (2 Pet. 1:4). This gift of divine life is offered to whosoever will accept it, but not all accept it. Nonetheless we are commissioned to let the world know it is available.
 
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AlexDTX

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I appreciate your comment, but as for me, I base my views on the more Sure Word (2 Pet. 1:19) of the Bible, than YouTube testimonies.
 
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AlexDTX

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I would say knowing God directly through Jesus is the superior aspect of Christianity. All other religions are just that, religions, and have no direct relationship with the Living God since the name of the Living God today is Jesus.
 
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AlexDTX

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Of course, that is a depiction of cultural understanding of Hell, not scriptural. Hades and Gehenna are most definitely spoken of by Jesus, but the connotations of Hell are pregnant through cultural history. Perhaps it would be useful not to use the word which is from Norse mythology as the abode of the goddess of death, Hela to avoid the cultural connotations.
 
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AlexDTX

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Andy, thank you for your answer.

One common stream I am seeing from many (not all) adherents to the doctrine of universal salvation is that they come to this conclusion based upon reading someone else's book arguing for the case. Some of the respondents said they did extensive Bible study on their own and came to this conclusion, too, so I do not say "all". Jehovah Witness and Mormons also have their faith based upon the writings of others instead of their own personal reading of the Bible.

I would also say that those who did study the Bible and came to the universal salvation conclusion may well have been looking for support of a desired conclusion, too.

But I also make the same point about many Christians who hold to "orthodox" faith. Many simply espouse the opinions of Chuck Swindol, or John MacArthur. And for the more scholastic they espouse the opinions of John Calvin (or his followers who created the TULIP at the synod of Dort) or Jacobus Arminius, or many of the other church "fathers" (which simply meant those men who could document their opinions in writing).

And, of course, all who have chosen their favorite denomination and favorite "pastor" who teaches and preaches in their weekly Sunday opinion sermon.

When I truly knew I had the new birth experience in 1985 I tried to follow my father's advise. My father was a scientist and self proclaimed atheist. He told me as a youth that when one approaches a subject, one should never consult the opinions of others since it would bias your view of the subject. Rather, one should thoroughly examine the subject for one's self before hearing what others have said about it.

So I made the effort to avoid hearing what others said (of course, I went to church which brought the opinions of others to my reading and caused more confusion, nonetheless) and read the Bible in its entirety for 5 years in a row. It truly surprised me when I realized how few people actually read the Bible completely for themselves and rely on what others have said instead.

I do not cast out the possibility of universal salvation, but, unless the Spirit shows me otherwise, I do not believe that conclusion is correct. And as I have said elsewhere, it seems that the only believers in this doctrine are still genuine Christians nonetheless.

And, to my encouragement, as you have said, you still preach the Gospel of salvation. That seems a whole lot better than many Calvinists who think that only the "elect" (I believe the "elect" is Jesus only, and all who abide in him through the new birth) are predestined for salvation and they will be saved so many Calvinists do not bother to preach the Gospel at all. Nor is that confined to Calvinists. There are thousands of pew sitters who never tell anyone about Jesus because of cowardice.

Thank you again for your answer.
 
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Rajni

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I would say knowing God directly through Jesus is the superior aspect of Christianity. All other religions are just that, religions, and have no direct relationship with the Living God since the name of the Living God today is Jesus.
I think the living God has gone by many names, and naturally every religion is going to think their name(s) for Him are the only Correct One(s)™. That's just more religion; i.e., nothing to see here.

If knowing God through Jesus is going to differentiate Christianity from other religions, then universal redemption would almost have to be a primary element of that, to give it the glow that puts it over and above business-as-usual in the realm of religious thought.

As it stands now for many denominations who speak of the importance of knowing God through Jesus, in practice they're just like any other religion, complete with hell-fire consequences for not playing by their rules, consequences that could only exist if Jesus hadn't done what he is said to have done for mankind. The result is that with Christianity—at least, Partialist Christianity—there's nothing really special to show for knowing God through Jesus.
 
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SaintNick

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I appreciate your comment, but as for me, I base my views on the more Sure Word (2 Pet. 1:19) of the Bible, than YouTube testimonies.
I understand, but I don't see how the lord couldn't send messages through those who died and specifically saw their mission was to come back and tell of their vision.
 
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Rajni

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I understand, but I don't see how the lord couldn't send messages through those who died and specifically saw their mission was to come back and tell of their vision.
One thing that’s encouraging about such testimonies (if they’re true, of course), is that just because one finds oneself in hell, doesn’t mean they stay there eternally. They’re proof that hell—if there is one—is, indeed, temporary for those who go there.
 
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Hillsage

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I understand, but I don't see how the lord couldn't send messages through those who died and specifically saw their mission was to come back and tell of their vision.
You make an assumption that it is the Lord sending messages IMO. Every 'died and went to hell' testimony I ever heard, never lined up with the story of the guy before or after. It's almost like the hell they all experienced had more to do with their particular 'state of mind', than it did some literal place which, logic would expect one believe, should have looked/felt sorta the same. I notice the same things about all the 'went to heaven' stories too. Fun to listen too, but always a different tale???
 
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