What does Romans 8:13 mean? You shall die if you live after the flesh?

[pjmcgrade]

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." - Romans 8:13

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this one. Particularly if we're saved by grace and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9) how can Paul say that if we live after the flesh that we'll die or if we mortify the deeds of the body that we'll live?

What kind of dying and living is Paul talking about in Romans 8:13?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think that if we are saved, we will naturally tend to sin less. By having the Spirit inside of us, we do "mortify the deeds of the body" ... it is like the daily dying we do by not living according to fleshly desires.

If on the other hand, we remain in our fleshly desires and reject Christ, we will of course reap the wages of sin, which is death - as part of the judgment.

I don't think it is our efforts to sin less that save us, but rather if we ARE saved, then part of the natural consequence will be that we sin less.

ETA: I think the death he is talking about here is the second death, meaning we will not inherit eternal life (but death) if we are not saved.

 

[riverrat]

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." - Romans 8:13

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this one. Particularly if we're saved by grace and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9) how can Paul say that if we live after the flesh that we'll die or if we mortify the deeds of the body that we'll live?

What kind of dying and living is Paul talking about in Romans 8:13?

"Living after the flesh" means that one is not saved and thus will suffer spiritual death.

 

[pjmcgrade]

"Living after the flesh" means that one is not saved and thus will suffer spiritual death.

I think that if we are saved, we will naturally tend to sin less. By having the Spirit inside of us, we do "mortify the deeds of the body" ... it is like the daily dying we do by not living according to fleshly desires.

If on the other hand, we remain in our fleshly desires and reject Christ, we will of course reap the wages of sin, which is death - as part of the judgment.

I don't think it is our efforts to sin less that save us, but rather if we ARE saved, then part of the natural consequence will be that we sin less.

ETA: I think the death he is talking about here is the second death, meaning we will not inherit eternal life (but death) if we are not saved.

@Kylissa - Personally I don't know whether I sin more or sin less than when I first asked God to save me. I know that I don't reject Christ but how do I know if I'm still in my fleshly desires?

@riverrat - Perhaps this is the explanation but I find it hard to believe because I hope in Christ for my salvation yet I find myself having the same experience as Paul when he said he doesn't do what he wants and does what he hates (Romans 7:15). The way I understand living after the flesh is this Romans 7:15 experience - "The good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." The problem is that I also find it impossible to escape this experience even as a Christian which brings me to my original question - what does it mean to die?

 

[~Anastasia~]

@Kylissa - Personally I don't know whether I sin more or sin less than when I first asked God to save me. I know that I don't reject Christ but how do I know if I'm still in my fleshly desires?

Frankly, it will get a little more confusing along the way.

When one is first saved, God may convict you of your tendency to steal from work that you do on a weekly basis. (Not YOU, but just as an example.). He often works on certain things in our lives, and lets others go. That same person may find, two years later, that God is suddenly convicting them of smoking cigarettes, when before it never "seemed like" a sin. Ten years later, He may be convicting them of obeying Him, but only after a short delay.

I have spoken with people who believe they become actually sinless at the moment of salvation, and never sin again. I think the opposite is true. I think we ALL sin, constantly. The sin that God chooses to make us aware of when we are first saved is usually the "worse" or "grosser" sin, and if we allow Him to make us more and more like Christ, then we are constantly shown more and more sins in our lives and invited to work on them, and they will be the progressively "lesser" sins.

I don't mean this as a debate that certain sins are better/worse than others. All sin IS sin, but God knows how best to grow each of us and in what order we need to be cleaned up.

 

[pjmcgrade]

I have spoken with people who believe they become actually sinless at the moment of salvation, and never sin again. I think the opposite is true. I think we ALL sin, constantly. The sin that God chooses to make us aware of when we are first saved is usually the "worse" or "grosser" sin, and if we allow Him to make us more and more like Christ, then we are constantly shown more and more sins in our lives and invited to work on them, and they will be the progressively "lesser" sins.

If we all sin constantly then wouldn't that mean we live after the flesh?

 

[~Anastasia~]

What I mean is that, as we become more sensitive to God's spirit, He makes us aware of finer points of obedience.

When I was first saved, my conversion was rather dramatic. There was a very great change in my behavior and personality. Anyone watching me would not have been able to point out sins in my life. And to be honest (and at the risk of sounding prideful), I myself was unaware of any ongoing sin. But as the relationship with God develops, you become more sensitized to what He expects of you, and indeed I think He DOES expect more as we grow more. During my prayer times, I became aware of sins in my thought life that I would not have recognized as sins when I was a baby Christian. And so it continues.

Perhaps this discussion does not belong here, since I am relating primarily my own experience (which has been confirmed to me to be a common experience with many others). But it does, I think, relate to the questions you asked.

And no, I do not think that means we live after the flesh. Our bodies ARE flesh, and as such we are subject to our fleshly minds and so on. A moment's covetousness, or a quick flash of jealousy or perhaps pride, are the kinds of things that I think probably plague us much (or all) of our lives. Living after the flesh might be not only wishing for a moment that you had your neighbor's new drill, but giving into that covetousness and stealing it while you were bringing in his mail for him while he is on vacation.

That's my take on it anyway.

 

[SG9]

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." - Romans 8:13

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this one. Particularly if we're saved by grace and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9) how can Paul say that if we live after the flesh that we'll die or if we mortify the deeds of the body that we'll live?

What kind of dying and living is Paul talking about in Romans 8:13?

What does Romans 8:13 mean? You shall die if you live after the flesh?

We cannot serve two masters, or we love one and not the other. If we store up in our frontlets-mind more the the things that sustain the flesh we fall short of measure of the Spirit, then we die spiritually. God says to "store up" our treasures in heaven, and not on earth, the storehouse is our mind. It's the same idea as a weed choking out a wonderful healthy plant. It means to clean up our garden for inspection as the Master checks on us each day to see if our gardens are pleasing in His sight, and to sample taste our fruits.

If we produce bad fruits which come by evil works we then are like rotten tomatoes and God spits us out. It's sort of like the Spirit and flesh are to be properly balanced in the proportion of God's statutes so that we may hover over the waters and not take on any heaviness and dip into the waters by slanting our Cross, it must remain upright like a + symbol, and not an X

+=Life
x=death

Thanks

 

[football5680]

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." - Romans 8:13

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this one. Particularly if we're saved by grace and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9) how can Paul say that if we live after the flesh that we'll die or if we mortify the deeds of the body that we'll live?

What kind of dying and living is Paul talking about in Romans 8:13?

Works alone saves nobody, faith alone saves nobody, it is the combination of the two that leads to salvation.

James 2:18-26
18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Jesus said that we must love God to enter heaven and how does Jesus expect us to show this love?

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. (John 14:5)

Paul is simply saying we cannot live according to the desires of our body and expect to be saved. If you live for the body then you are living for this world and you are serving the ruler of this world.

I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, (John 14:30)

But, if we live according to the spirit which is not of this world then we are living for God.

What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. (1 Corinthians 2:12)

So the death mentioned is hell, and the life is heaven.

 

[riverrat]

@Kylissa - Personally I don't know whether I sin more or sin less than when I first asked God to save me. I know that I don't reject Christ but how do I know if I'm still in my fleshly desires?

@riverrat - Perhaps this is the explanation but I find it hard to believe because I hope in Christ for my salvation yet I find myself having the same experience as Paul when he said he doesn't do what he wants and does what he hates (Romans 7:15). The way I understand living after the flesh is this Romans 7:15 experience - "The good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." The problem is that I also find it impossible to escape this experience even as a Christian which brings me to my original question - what does it mean to die?

Seems to me that Rom 8:9 indicates that "living in the flesh" means that you are not saved.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Seems to me that Rom 8:9 indicates that "living in the flesh" means that you are not saved.

Incidentally, I just want to say that I agree with this. You say it so much more directly.

I think those ones I have known who profess Christ and yet apparently live according to the flesh are mostly not actually saved. Those that are (if there are any) must have dealt with quite a bit of conviction and ignored it to the point that they no longer experience it at all.

 

[EGordo]

Galatians 5:19 will make things more clearer.

 

[mrseven]

There are only two ways to live: live in the flesh, or live in the spirit. Living in the flesh represents our choice to follow after the lusts of the world.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

But rather, if we place our faith in God, we are no longer of this world, but live after the spirit that is in us, the spirit of God.

1 John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

While we do live by the spirit, that is not to say that we are not still subject to our earthly corrupted bodies, which do lust after the things of the world. Paul himself struggled with this, as has been pointed out above.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Our spirit is indeed willing, but the sin, the flesh of our bodies, continues to cause our minds to wander. However, if we are receptive of it, God's Spirit within us will direct us on the path He wishes for us, that is one towards Him and not the world.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

We should strive to resist these temptations and follow after the Spirit of God that dwells within us. We cannot do it alone, God must help us.

Luke 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." - Romans 8:13

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this one. Particularly if we're saved by grace and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9) how can Paul say that if we live after the flesh that we'll die or if we mortify the deeds of the body that we'll live?

What kind of dying and living is Paul talking about in Romans 8:13?

If I had to hazard an interpretation, I'd suggest reading the Lord's parable of the sower, He speaks of the seed that falls and it springs up but is choked out by the thorns and the thistles. If we pursue our flesh--our sin--and keep living according to our sinful lusts then we will be as dead as we were before we came to faith. Dead in our sins, dead in the world, and without the hope we have in Christ that we will be raised up from the dead on the Last Day (Romans 8:11).

This isn't about "earning our way", we can't earn our way. But it does mean confessing our sins, trusting Christ and His Gospel, clinging to the faith because it's the only solid, stable thing in the turbulent deathly storm of this dying, sin-soaked world, the only thing that will take us to the other side safe and secure. Christ is our salvation, all else is sinking sand and decaying refuse.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[miamited]

Hi paul,

I believe it means that if you live your life seeking to fulfill the wants and desires and lusts and needs of your flesh - your place will be with the unrighteous.

A lot of 'christians' like to quote this verse: There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

However, one must also understand that that statement does not stand alone. Paul confirms the same thing in this statement because it doesn't end with 'who are in Christ Jesus'. The whole counsel of God says this: There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

So, be very, very careful when you fall prey to those with 'understanding'. Check it out!! According to Paul the only 'christians' who can confidently claim that there is now no condemnation for them is those who walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. It isn't some blanket promise to just anyone who attaches the name of 'christian' to their profile.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[pjmcgrade]

Hi paul,

I believe it means that if you live your life seeking to fulfill the wants and desires and lusts and needs of your flesh - your place will be with the unrighteous.

While we do live by the spirit, that is not to say that we are not still subject to our earthly corrupted bodies, which do lust after the things of the world. Paul himself struggled with this, as has been pointed out above.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Our spirit is indeed willing, but the sin, the flesh of our bodies, continues to cause our minds to wander. However, if we are receptive of it, God's Spirit within us will direct us on the path He wishes for us, that is one towards Him and not the world.

@miamited - How do you know if you're seeking to fulfill the wants and desires and lusts and needs of your flesh? Correct me if I'm wrong but if someone sins wouldn't that mean they're seeking to fulfill the wants and desires and lusts and needs of their flesh? I'm going to assume your answer will be that a person can still sin and yet not be seeking to fulfill the wants and desires and lusts and needs of their flesh. If so, how? How can a person fulfill the wants and desires and lusts and needs of their flesh (sin) and yet claim their not seeking to do it?

@mrseven - I agree mrseven. There's confusion here though. If our bodies lust after the things of the world then wouldn't that mean we're living after the flesh? I agree with Paul when he said "the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." If he does the evil that he doesn't want to do doesn't that mean he's living after the flesh and will die?

 

[MJohn7]

For me Romans 8 means to put my faith in Gods ways (living by faith not sight, justified by grace not works, saved by hope, and following Christs doctrine/words) And to be spiritually minded means that we should seek spiritual things such as love, mercy, righteousness, holiness, things that are pure, honest and just, and to be ready to suffer at times. It means to follow a path of love for God and others which the flesh hates because our flesh is selfish. And to be carnally minded is to seek after things which the bible says that God hates.