What does it take to have salvation?

AllanV said:

It is good to get a little taste of the powers to come.

Click to expand...

Psalms 23 is about when David was starving in the desert and
he was given a taste of the World to come.

Egypt also means boundaries, limitations,
we should leave Egypt every day,

otherwise we will end up back there again.

Edit; Just for the books, I correct myself,
David was in the forest of Cheret at the time,
even so, pretty harsh situation.

AllanV said:

My background is engineering and what is seen is that there are more and more problems occurring that need a fix but there is no immediate answer or enough workers. Some businesses go bankrupt because the competency of the staff is no there.

Click to expand...

I've consistently found that conservatives are frightened people: people who feel threatened by the foreign, the unknown, the very concept of change. People who tend to perceive the world in terms of black and white, often with a VERY bleak view of their fellow human beings.

Of course we are not without problems: in the USA, there are still people without access to affordable health care; LGBTQ* are discriminated against by law (even though the Supreme Court has pretty much established that this is unconstitutional); people flock to the banners of low-brow demagogues like Donald Trump, and deny climate change while they keep on wasting even more non-regenerative resources and producing garbage. Simplistic ideologies (particularly from the far-right end of the spectrum, along with religious fundamentalism) are re-gaining popularity, after we thought that the first half of the twentieth century had pretty much taught us to know better once and for all. People look at the global village, and their response tends to be to build higher walls (figuratively or literally) for fear of being contaminated by other ideas.

And I'm an environmentalist, so I am no stranger to the terrible scourge our livestyles represent to the health of the ecosystem as a whole (and thus, by extension, to our own). Plastic garbage accumulating in the oceans, coral bleaching, species dying out at 500% of the natural rate, half of the Earth's rainforests gone (and the other half to follow within the next decades if we continue at this rate), China's turning into a toxic waste dump, etc.

But I would be foolish to pretend this is not the best time to be alive, in spite of all of the problems we keep on facing. Barbarism is trying to make its comeback in the form of reactionary right-wing ideologies, but it is no longer the default backed by law and the status quo. Racial segregation is a thing of the past. Women no longer need their husband's permission to get a job. Discrimination (based on any factor) is no longer ubiquitous and inescapable. Judging by averages, I can expect to live well into my seventies, as opposed to an average life expectancy of 48 years in 1950, or 31 in 1900.

Ignorance and fear are the main threat to a better future.

AllanV said:

When in the correct mental state God's presence will bring the life required for good health.

Click to expand...

Hmmm. And your evidence that religious people live longer than the non-religious is what? Evidence from peer-reviewed research please.

Jane_the_Bane said:

I've consistently found that conservatives are frightened people: people who feel threatened by the foreign, the unknown, the very concept of change. People who tend to perceive the world in terms of black and white, often with a VERY bleak view of their fellow human beings.

Click to expand...

Salvation is healing and it does take a new approach because it is about change. There is the saying " an omelet can't be made without breaking the eggs". The usual state is held onto and the change once it is understood may be a step too far.

smaneck said:

Hmmm. And your evidence that religious people live longer than the non-religious is what? Evidence from peer-reviewed research please.

Click to expand...

Deuteronomy 5:33 ►
Walk in obedience to all that the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess.

Religious people may live shorter lives. Obedience is now an intuitive direction taken that has the best outcome. If one has the correct Spirit a thought comes to mind and if acted on then all is usually well.
There are some who will rob others of their true direction and some separation and distance from them will help.

Robban said:

What is there to say?
You are all over the map,
Where to begin.

Click to expand...

You will find something to say I am sure. It is difficult to condense and is a bit like driving across town in fast moving traffic.

AllanV said:

Deuteronomy 5:33 ►
Walk in obedience to all that the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess.

Click to expand...

That's your idea of peer-reviewed research?

Religious people may live shorter lives. [/QUOTE

Then your thesis doesn't hold water.

Click to expand...

Robban said:

Psalms 23 is about when David was starving in the desert and
he was given a taste of the World to come.

Egypt also means boundaries, limitations,
we should leave Egypt every day,

otherwise we will end up back there again.

Edit; Just for the books, I correct myself,
David was in the forest of Cheret at the time,
even so, pretty harsh situation.

Click to expand...

The boundaries, limitations, are in the mind and heart but the spirit will lead a person through and beyond the usual residing place. When there is obedience to the Spirit then the old mind is lost and there is transformation and renewal into something that can not be usually comprehended. If followed with out turning back the divine nature is found and The Eternal God will energize the Love in it.

AllanV said:

You will find something to say I am sure. It is difficult to condense and is a bit like driving across town in fast moving traffic.

Click to expand...

smaneck said:

That's your idea of peer-reviewed research?

Click to expand...

You brought up the religious but any endeavor can be religiously followed.
You appear to have the idea that a particular religion is being given more attention.
A Way is followed and hopefully the Spirit leads continuously.

AllanV said:

The boundaries, limitations, are in the mind and heart but the spirit will lead a person through and beyond the usual residing place. When there is obedience to the Spirit then the old mind is lost and there is transformation and renewal into something that can not be usually comprehended. If followed with out turning back the divine nature is found and The Eternal God will energize the Love in it.

Click to expand...

Seems like the word "spirit" is thrown around all over the place.

We all have a spirit it is part of the makeup of the soul.

There is also Divine inspiration,
Example,
Rahav and the Spies,
Rahav told the Spies to go up into the hills and stay there three days
until their persuers returned.

How did she know they would return after three days?

If she had been wrong it would have meant curtains for the Spies.

Robban said:

Seems like the word "spirit" is thrown around all over the place.

We all have a spirit it is part of the makeup of the soul.

There is also Divine inspiration,
Example,
Rahav and the Spies,
Rahav told the Spies to go up into the hills and stay there three days
until their persuers returned.

How did she know they would return after three days?

If she had been wrong it would have meant curtains for the Spies.

Click to expand...

Yes there is the human spirit but then there is the Holy Spirit.
There is a case for intuition if it works correctly. When young although I drove too fast a thought would come to mind to slow down that there was a traffic policeman ahead or a radar and it was always obeyed. It occurred to often to be coincidence. I never received a ticket or fine while friends did continuously.

I would not have understood the Holy Spirit except for an initial experience and at different times of dedication and focus the mind is drawn beyond the usual natural residing place. The idea is to stay there mostly continuously and immortality is the reward.
My understanding is that faith is similar to the creative power in the instant manifestation of matter and when operating correctly a new creation occurs within the individual who moves forward with it.
God is likened to an observer just beyond and deeper than the mind that is usually thought from.
Once opened up to this whole other dimension it is difficult to leave it alone. The word is exquisite and it is revealed in completion.
God does intervene in the thoughts and this must be recognized for what it is and obeyed.
It is being obedient to the Spirit of God.

AllanV said:

When in the correct mental state God's presence will bring the life required for good health.

Click to expand...

The over all picture is much, MUCH greater than one's own good health. What we are doing to the earth, oceans and forest of the world is a mirror reflection of what we are doing to ourselves and each other. The awareness of the sacredness within All there is and also other human beings has been lost in this materialistic world. If "experiencing" God's presence with in it all is the answer, than I'm all for it. But what I'm seeing is more of a limit placed on the presence of God which makes me think it's more talk than walk. And it makes me wonder what "correct mental state of God's presence" means.

dlamberth said:

The over all picture is much, MUCH greater than one's own good health. What we are doing to the earth, oceans and forest of the world is a mirror reflection of what we are doing to ourselves and each other. The awareness of the sacredness within All there is and also other human beings has been lost in this materialistic world. If "experiencing" God's presence with in it all is the answer, than I'm all for it. But what I'm seeing is more of a limit placed on the presence of God which makes me think it's more talk than walk. And it makes me wonder what "correct mental state of God's presence" means.

Click to expand...

When people are unable to receive what is offered then it is better to withdraw. There is a need to be patient in the midst of the horror show. God wants man off the planet His wrath is sure.

Find the correct place by completing the inner journey of transformation, express the Love of God and some around you may respond.

AllanV said:

The boundaries, limitations, are in the mind and heart but the spirit will lead a person through and beyond the usual residing place. When there is obedience to the Spirit then the old mind is lost and there is transformation and renewal into something that can not be usually comprehended. If followed with out turning back the divine nature is found and The Eternal God will energize the Love in it.

Click to expand...

Allan, I confess I have problems understanding your sentence structure, your line of thought. However, in this short comment you are spot on. No problems, accurate description of what happens, Spiritually. Thanks.

Allow me to verge off on a little tangent:

Personally, I understand the term "spiritualism" as a catch-all term for an active engagement with our spirit/soul/psyche; it does not have to be religious, it does not have to be theistic, it does not even have to revolve around any belief in the "supernatural". Even a secular humanist can be spiritual, provided that he occasionally focuses on his own psyche in more than just a merely curative sense (in the case of mental illness et.al.).

Prayer and meditation are widely recognized as spiritual execises, primarily through their connection with religion. But it does not end there. Almost anything can be a profoundly spiritual experience or execise, given the right context. I once had a small epiphany listening to a 90s alternative pop song by Kylie Minogue. Others can enter a tance state while jogging or execising. Being in nature can trigger transpersonal experiences. And even taking a bath can be a profoundly spiritual event.

I could never be religious, as I simply do not see religions as an accurate depiction of reality. That's why I also cannot relate to the concept of "salvation", especially if it involves being saved from the wrath of divine entities who are angered by humanity's lack of godlike perfection.

But neither could I ever be happy in a life devoid of spirituality. My personal growth and maturation very much depends on my interaction with my psyche, and I'd be perfectly unhappy in a life that revolved only around things like social status, status symbols, or entertainment as a form of anesthesia. (I LOVE entertainment, but I am horrified by people who turn on any garbage that's on TV just to grow comfortably numb and not think about their lives.)

Jane_the_Bane said:

I've consistently found that conservatives are frightened people: people who feel threatened by the foreign, the unknown, the very concept of change. People who tend to perceive the world in terms of black and white, often with a VERY bleak view of their fellow human beings.

Click to expand...

Interesting post, but I think it goes both ways. I am fairly middle of the road myself but when a person gets too far right or too far left they will have similar characteristics.

Jane_the_Bane said:

Allow me to verge off on a little tangent:

I could never be religious, as I simply do not see religions as an accurate depiction of reality. That's why I also cannot relate to the concept of "salvation", especially if it involves being saved from the wrath of divine entities who are angered by humanity's lack of godlike perfection. But neither could I ever be happy in a life devoid of spirituality.

Click to expand...

One does not become "religious" when one becomes Spiritually involved with Jesus as Savior. There are no "divine entities" (plural) who are "angered" due to our "lack of godlike perfection." On the contrary, eternal security (salvation) is the free Gift of God, saving each person (singular) by Grace through Faith. The key to opening the door to eternal life is found in Romans 10:8-13. The Holy Spirit invites you to enter in.

Winken said:

One does not become "religious" when one becomes Spiritually involved with Jesus as Savior.

Click to expand...

I didn't realize some brands of Christianity don't have doctrines or creeds that they follow. I imagine fairly liberal ones like the United Church or something where you can believe whatever? Most churches I visited had a 'what we believe' on their website that read like religious beliefs....ie We believe that Jesus is the Son of God, was crucified, etc, etc. What churches allow belief that Jesus was the Son of God optional? Pretty progressive if you ask me.

I don't consider myself religious but I don't deny some aspects of my Buddhism are actually religious. Any organized set of beliefs are in fact a religion, whether one likes to call themselves that or not. I think what Jane meant by religious or religion is how it boxes one in and sets them on a path that is very straight, without much leeway to go in different directions. In my mind a key component of being 'religious' is having to believe a particular thing and not being able to 'experiment' different ideas.

gordRedeemed said:

I didn't realize some brands of Christianity don't have doctrines or creeds that they follow. I imagine fairly liberal ones like the United Church or something where you can believe whatever? Most churches I visited had a 'what we believe' on their website that read like religious beliefs....ie We believe that Jesus is the Son of God, was crucified, etc, etc. What churches allow belief that Jesus was the Son of God optional? Pretty progressive if you ask me.

I don't consider myself religious but I don't deny some aspects of my Buddhism are actually religious. Any organized set of beliefs are in fact a religion, whether one likes to call themselves that or not. I think what Jane meant by religious or religion is how it boxes one in and sets them on a path that is very straight, without much leeway to go in different directions. In my mind a key component of being 'religious' is having to believe a particular thing and not being able to 'experiment' different ideas.

Click to expand...

There are no "brands" of Christianity. There is only salvation by Grace through Faith. An authentic Christian cannot be identified as Roman Catholic or Southern Baptist or Lutheran or Methodist or whatever. One who has confessed Jesus as Savior is a Believer, not a denomination. There are no variations in the Good News that eternal security is freely offered by God. No structure (religion), no rules, no policies, no procedures.

At the moment of receiving God's free Gift of Grace, one is placed on a Pathway to eternity. No power on earth, no cult, no belief minus Grace, can, and never will, change that. It is unalterable. Nothing on the Pathway is predestined. God does not plant difficulties or pain or suffering along the Way. The only Presence is Grace. God's Amazing Grace is present from the initial Gift, for eternity. One does not "work" or "seek" to remain saved thereafter. Grace is free. His Embrace is eternal. There is no "striving" to please Him. He was pleased at the precise split-second of our confession. That never changes.

The naysayers, counterfeit Christians, straying Christians, will jump on the bandwagon of "so I can sin all I want and I'm forever saved." They ignore the the Truth that Jesus paid the price of every sin one could ever commit at the Cross. They don't understand that. They would rather doubt, argue, debate, rather than accept that Glorious Truth.

That does not entitle an authentic Christian to sin. Scripture makes that clear. An authentic Christian sins, yes, but he or she is no longer a sinner by standing or status before God. He or she is forever forgiven. An authentic Christian grieves over incremental sins, knowing full-well that those acts disrupt the Path God has placed him or her on. In simple, simplistic terminology, one "falls off the wagon." He or she in no wise becomes "lost" again (one who does not know Jesus is Biblically identified as "lost.") Those incremental sins can have destructive impact on self, family, friends, co-workers, strangers. They have a definite impact at the Judgment Seat of Christ, where each authentic Christian's witnessing to others about our Savior is measured. As authentic Christians we are called upon to share with others God's Amazing Grace, Romans 10:8-13.

How does one say "God, I'm sorry.... I've sinned." Open your Bible to 1 John 1:9. Read that 3 or 4 times. God is faithful and just in forgiveness. When He hears each acknowledgement He "looks at me, He sees not what I used to be --- He sees Jesus." I've been redeemed.