What does it mean?

[bottomofsandal]

What good is repentance if once I'm saved I cant lose salvation? That denotes freedom to do what I wish. I can't lose it, therefore. why fret?

What good is salvation if it is not eternal ?

Why would salvation need to be in constant jeopardy to have value ?

 

[Kemosabe]

Yahu: No you won't lose your salvation

But, "the Spirit saith unto the churches"; if you don't overcome you will "be hurt of the second death."

Yahu: Getting into the kingdom is easy.

But Jesus says; "few there be that find it."

Yahu: without 'loss of salvation'.

But Jesus says, "hurt of the second death" and "blot out his name out of the book of life."

Yahu: Salvation isn't the goal, spiritual maturity after salvation is.

But Jesus says, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

 

[Striker427]

The gate is not broad to enter it is small, for the broad gate leads to destruction. So therefore enter by the narrow gate.

Mat 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Mat 7:14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Mat 7:15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Mat 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
Mat 7:17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
Mat 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

I would think that cut down and thrown into the fire would represent a losing of a saved position. A position of being saved from the wrath of God.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

And if we continue to sin were does that put us?

Rom 13:4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
Rom 13:5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.

So it would seem that we are to keep in mind the wrath of God in our walk with Him.

[FONT=&quot]Luk 13:7[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luk 13:8[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luk 13:9[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'" [/FONT]

Again what is shown to the one that does not bear good fruit?

Mat 3:10 "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

But we do have a merciful God and we can go to Jesus Christ after we have examined ourselves and repent of our sins and He is faithful to forgive us, but keep in mind lip service will not keep you from the wrath of God.


[FONT=&quot]Eph 5:5[/FONT][FONT=&quot] For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Eph 5:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. [/FONT]

Empty words OSAS


[FONT=&quot]Mat 22:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 22:12[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and he *said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 22:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 22:14[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "For many are called, but few are chosen."[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]A narrow road.
[/FONT]

 

[Norah63]

OSAS ends at salvation. Have seen that so many times, can't count.
That's why they have so much free time to straighten everyone else out.
Didn't see an answer to many scriptures about overcoming.
It is an easy way if that is what one is looking for.

 

[Kemosabe]

Grudge not one against another,
brethren, lest ye be condemned:
behold, the judge standeth before the door.

 

[DeadlyScimitars]

What good is salvation if it is not eternal ?

Why would salvation need to be in constant jeopardy to have value ?

I never proposed it wasn't eternal. Those who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior are saved. If you continue to hold to that faith of the promise God has made then it remains. It is eternal. For, when you stand before the Judgment seat and you have kept the faith, then eternal life with God is yours. That is where it is eternal.

But does this mean if you lose your faith, and turn from the goodness of God which you have tasted and reject what Christ offered, will you hold onto this salvation? It is not a one time done deal. If it was, Paul would not have wrote:

"But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. Philippians 3

and...

For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. 2 Tim 4

Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done. Heb 12

How do you interpret this?

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?

I just find it hard to believe that anyone can say those being spoken about were never "true" believers in the first place. It is very clear they were.

 

[bottomofsandal]

<snip>

Those who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior are saved. If you continue to hold to that faith of the promise God has made then it remains. It is eternal. For, when you stand before the Judgment seat and you have kept the faith, then eternal life with God is yours. That is where it is eternal.

But does this mean if you lose your faith, and turn from the goodness of God which you have tasted and reject what Christ offered, will you hold onto this salvation? It is not a one time done deal.

I just find it hard to believe that anyone can say those being spoken about were never "true" believers in the first place. It is very clear they were.

Look at the 12...did they all believe ? Did they waffle ? What about Thomas who needed more evidence to solidify his belief ? What about Peter who denied Jesus ? Jesus called his own disciples "little-faiths".


No doubt people sometimes fall away for a time, done that myself, but a Blood sealed believer will always come back. Since we are saved by grace, then grace is obligated to save us, since we cannot save ourselves.

 

[MattiMuck]

Look at the 12...did they all believe ? Did they waffle ? What about Thomas who needed more evidence to solidify his belief ? What about Peter who denied Jesus ? Jesus called his own disciples "little-faiths".

No doubt people sometimes fall away for a time, done that myself, but a Blood sealed believer will always come back. Since we are saved by grace, then grace is obligated to save us, since we cannot save ourselves.

Very well put...great point.

 

[Kemosabe]

bottomofsandal: Since we are saved by grace, then grace is obligated to save us, since we cannot save ourselves.

I don't think Ananias and Sapphira would agree with your theory.

bottomofsandal: What about Peter who denied Jesus ?

Yes, Peter did a horrible thing; and repented in bitter tears and went on to boldly preach the Gospel in constant threat off death.

So, the important thing to gain here is that he repented and ceased and overcame the weakness of his flesh.

That's the goal, overcome.

"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life"

.

 

[DeadlyScimitars]

Look at the 12...did they all believe ? Did they waffle ? What about Thomas who needed more evidence to solidify his belief ? What about Peter who denied Jesus ? Jesus called his own disciples "little-faiths".


No doubt people sometimes fall away for a time, done that myself, but a Blood sealed believer will always come back. Since we are saved by grace, then grace is obligated to save us, since we cannot save ourselves.

I think your not seeing what I'm trying to convey, or, the definition of "fall away" is not clear.
When Paul talks about falling away in Hebrews, he talks about those who will be deceived and leave the truth for a lie, a deliberate choice. Not one who still believes in the gospel message but out of fear, doubt, etc. goes down the path of rebellion for a time. We all sin even as believers.
For if a believer, one who has tasted the heavenly gift, has shared in the Holy Spirit, and knows what the gospel is and has believed it...and then exchanges that for a lie or false doctrine when they KNOW what was right, how then could they find it in their heart to except the gospel again? I would find it hard to believe that they would.

I believe Paul is talking about those who deliberately reject the truth AFTER accepting God's gift. It is possible. Likely? Probably not.

Look at the Israelites. They saw signs and wonders with their own eyes...even God Himself in a different form! But what did they do? "Lets go back to Egypt" they decided. Or they built a man-made idol, with God on Mount Sinai right beside them! Peoples hearts are not incapable of totally rejecting something they know is true.

We can go on and on about this subject but one thing remains true...it is possible to totally reject God after knowing Him. If you disagree I would like someone to explain Hebrews 6:4-8 to me.

 

[DeadlyScimitars]

Look at the 12...did they all believe ? Did they waffle ? What about Thomas who needed more evidence to solidify his belief ? What about Peter who denied Jesus ? Jesus called his own disciples "little-faiths".

He was speaking of their immaturity and their need to build their faith, not of their lack of faith to believe that He was God.

We all are "little-faiths". Can you tell a mountain move there and it does?
If not, "oh you of little faith".
For if you have faith as small as a mustard seed you could. But that does not mean we don't have faith to save us or we are all doomed.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Yes, Peter did a horrible thing; and repented in bitter tears and went on to boldly preach the Gospel in constant threat off death.

So, the important thing to gain here is that he repented and ceased and overcame the weakness of his flesh.

That's the goal, overcome.

"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life"

Grace or manmade effort, power, and glory...there's the difference.

When a pov regularly emphasizes self-promotion, and habitually points to man as the reason for success, then God's grace is unnnecessary ! This is the problem with "overcoming"...it is the man, not Christ in the man doing His work, rather the man displaying his special ability.The man has somehow decided that he is stronger, better, holier than other man and can navigate himself into Heaven. Where is The Lord ? He is not mentioned, rather the self is praised as advancing itself.


The goal is God getting the glory, not man. Any pov that seldom praises God must be approached with caution, especially when the difference maker is not God's grace, but rather man's determination. If getting to Heaven is primarily based upon man's grit and fortitude, then what will we have to celebrate for eternity ? Our own awesomeness ???

 

[bottomofsandal]

I never proposed it wasn't eternal. Those who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior are saved. If you continue to hold to that faith of the promise God has made then it remains. It is eternal. For, when you stand before the Judgment seat and you have kept the faith, then eternal life with God is yours. That is where it is eternal.

If we believe we are saved by grace and our faith is the gift of God, we will not question the authenticity of our salvation. Why would a man even want to believe that he could possibly lose his salvation ? If there is need for warning, then Jesus would have made specific reference to such a teaching. Where does Jesus say He kicks out true believers ?


He doesn't. Man, in his need for self-validation, devises a system whereby he can contribute something to his salvation and feel good about this in his flesh. He who began the work (God) will carry it unto completion. The burden for the success of salvation is on God, not man, How would man even know where to begin in the momumental Divine work of salvation ? Man esteems himself. Man seeks to placate his guilty conscience and co-save himself alongside God, with God's help. Man is but a flea on the horn of the ox plowing the field who thumps his chest and shouts to other fleas that he is "plowing".

 

[Kemosabe]

bottomofsandal: This is the problem with "overcoming"

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

How can we do away with the word, "overcometh"???

If we choose to ignore "overcometh", then, according to Jesus, we have a bad retirement plan.

bottomofsandal: ... Christ in the man doing His work ...

"... God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

How can Christ use those that are walking in sin to do His work? God can't fellowship with darkness.

If sin were OK, then Jesus didn't need to die.

bottomofsandal: ... rather the man displaying his special ability.

"present your bodies a living sacrifice"

Not man's ability, but man's total surrender to the will of God.

"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh."

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

So, man has to push "man" (mortify/dead) out of the way, and yield the vessel (body) to the Spirit of God so that the works of Christ may be accomplished through willing vessels.

Then "overcometh" isn't a problem.

We only have two simple task;
1. keep the flesh crucified
2. follow the Spirit

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

Grace is POWER to conquer ourselves, and POWER to "overcometh" ourselves and POWER to yield ourselves to the Spirit for the works of Christ.

Grace is the POWER; "through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body."

"Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us."

We are more than conquerors through him, and only through him.

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"

We've been given all things that pertain unto life and godlines.

 

[Striker427]

Let me give you a testimony of an event in my life. It was overcoming something that was so overpowering in my life that I could not move forward in my relationship with God or my family. I had an extreme anger problem and I was consumed with the desire to just take care of myself. Now I have studied the bible a lot and the Spirit of God has shown me many things in the word of God that just brings awe to the way I see God and the word of God always supports itself. Exodus is our walk with the Lord and how the angel of death or the one who carries out the wrath of God bypassed God's people with the blood of the lamb on the door frame. You now have that blood on your door frame, then the consuming of the lamb. Just the same as we are to consume the word of God Jesus is the word and the feast has been made ready. Then the exodus from Egypt which is our worldly wants and desires. Then we are taken into the desert for a time of testing. Just as Jesus was taken into the desert by the desire of the spirit.
Jesus used the word of God to combat Satan just as we are to use the word of God to overcome Satan and the mind set of Satan and take on the mind set of God. Then they were given the law. This was to show that sin is breaking the law of good and that we are put under the wrath of God when we sin. Then the Lord had scouts go in to survey the land that was promised to the people of God and 10 out of twelve said that they could not overcome the inhabitants of the land because the inhabitants were to great, but 2 said that they could overcome the adversaries with the Lords help and an angel of the Lord went before them to prepare the way. Just as we are given a helper to help us in the way of overcoming the adversaries. We battle not of flesh and blood but of principalities and the powers of darkness. You notice it says we battle. The same as when the people of God went in to conquer the promised land, they had to overcome the adversaries and we have to overcome our old man that is within us.

Deu 7:21 "You shall not dread them, for the LORD your God is in your midst, a great and awesome God.
Deu 7:22 "The LORD your God will clear away these nations before you little by little; you will not be able to put an end to them quickly, for the wild beasts would grow too numerous for you.
Deu 7:23 "But the LORD your God will deliver them before you, and will throw them into great confusion until they are destroyed.
Deu 7:24 "He will deliver their kings into your hand so that you will make their name perish from under heaven; no man will be able to stand before you until you have destroyed them.
Deu 7:25 "The graven images of their gods you are to burn with fire; you shall not covet the silver or the gold that is on them, nor take it for yourselves, or you will be snared by it, for it is an abomination to the LORD your God.


So the adversaries upon the promise land are the adversaries of the darkness that is within us and the spirit of God is our helper and by the grace of God it is little by little that we overcome them.

Isa 4:3 It will come about that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem.
Isa 4:4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and purged the bloodshed of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning,

So back to my testimony. My son and I got into an argument and it turned into a fight and I was on top of him and holding him down and my anger at him was severe (my flesh nature). He asked me to not hurt him and I told him I wouldn't even though I wanted to, but I was praying at this time to Jesus to help me for I was doing what I didn't want to do even though my desire was to do right. I started fighting as hard as I could not to give into my old nature and hurt my son. Then a burning came over me one that was so intense that it is like a fire that was consuming me. When it stopped I let go of my son and I stood up and I was so weak and exhausted that I could hardly stand. But from that day forward a battle had taken place in me and I had overcome that old anger hating old man and the dross was taken away and I was given authority over that anger where I could control it instead of it controlling me. So that is why this scripture came alive in my eyes and from that day forward I have overcome many battles in my life and I praise my Lord Jesus Christ who did not abandon me in my time of testing and I was given the rod of authority over this part of my life. And I praise God for the Spirit given to me by His grace so that I have the power within me to overcome my old sin nature.

[FONT=&quot]Rev 2:26[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rev 2:27[/FONT][FONT=&quot] AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rev 2:28[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and I will give him the morning star. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rev 2:29[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'[/FONT]

Do not be one of the ten who say that the enemy is to great and you cannot overcome your old sin nature. Live to the new nature of Christ.

The fulfillment of the law is the death of the flesh (your old wants and desires). Jesus fulfilled the law by putting to death the deeds of the flesh and overcoming them and the enemies that were on the land and putting them under His feet.

Heb 2:8 YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET." For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
Heb 2:11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,

You will suffer in the flesh when you start to overcome and die to your old sin nature. Bear with it, it will only last a short time and then you will have dominion over it. Jesus tasted death for you and me so that we could see that sin can be overcome and we can taste death as well from our old sin nature with the power given to us by God. The spirit of Grace is the power of God given to us to overcome our sin nature.

Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Heb 2:15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
Heb 2:16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

The blessing I received from the battle is this, that it is now extremely hard to make me angry and when I do become angry I have authority over it to keep it under control and sin not.

[FONT=&quot]Rev 2:10[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rev 2:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death[/FONT]


You can do it. Be faithful, believe and it shall come to be, you can overcome your old sin nature, for you are given the power of the spirit of God to overcome your old sin nature. I give this testimony to you not so you can say congrats, I give this testimony to you to show that you can do it also for you also have the same Spirit of grace in you.