What does it mean to believe in God, and how do you do it?

[jeremy1988]

I've been trying to figure out how to believe in God for a while now, and I always end up questioning my own motives. For one thing, I end up thinking that wanting everlasting life or just to have something in common with people who share my political views and moral values might be selfish.

I also get very caught up with the difference between wanting to believe in God, hoping God exists, and actually believing with certainty and knowledge that God exists. I've been in the first two situations many times, but I don't know that I've ever been in the third one. And I suspect the third one is what I would need to be able to call myself a Christian.

I'm a very philosophical person, and I end up coming very close to believing and stopping just short of actually believing in the supernatural. For instance, I start thinking about how most people are willing to do horrible and immoral things if they don't believe in a higher power, and how a lack of Christianity can lead to people relying upon externalized morality to the point that if they can get away with something, they'll do it because no one is watching them or because society doesn't currently regard it as wrong. I see the immorality and the degraded lifestyles a lack of belief produces in people. I can understand why it is a social good for people to accept the Christian religion and follow the moral codes suggested by it.

I also think about things like Plato's theory of forms, and wonder if simply the fact that the concept of God exists in our minds is enough to prove his existence. But then I realize that this doesn't point to any particular god, and may only be proof that there exists some sort of higher power without telling us anything about its nature. It also potentially suggests that God's existence is dependent on people believing in him or upon people existing to perceive his existence, which would seem to be an inappropriate conclusion.

As things stand, I find myself thinking I must be an Agnostic, because I'm always wondering what sort of higher power exists, and whether I just want it to be the Christian God because that falls in line with my culture... or whether it's actually plausible that this is more correct.

I keep trying and failing to come up with something that holds up to my own intellectual scrutiny. One time, I even reached as far as wondering whether "The word was God," means that the text and the ideas of the Bible itself are God, and that the eternal life promised to believers is actually related to being remembered or recorded by future generations somehow. I know that's quite a reach and probably wouldn't be acceptable.

So my question is, what do you have to do or believe in order for it to count as believing in God? Also, how do you get to a point where you can know that God exists and not doubt it?

 

[Goatee]

Faith.............It all boils down to faith my friend. Having that gut feeling, that real believe in God. Your whole being knows that God is real. Even for a massive sinner like me, I KNOW GOD IS REAL!

When you know, it will fill your whole body with love of God. Nothing can take you away from your love of God.

I sin, and sin, and sin but, i LOVE GOD! I repent, repent and repent. The devil will NOT take my love of God away no matter how many times i fall!

Faith...............................You know in your deepest fibres that God is real.

 

[orangeness365]

It's hard to measure faith. I think that is only something God can do. I think if you want to have faith, then pray for it. I think that asking God for faith is in line with his will, so it is a good prayer to pray. Maybe you could ask for others to pray for your faith as well. I think there are plenty of people that doubt from time to time, myself included, although over the past few years I've been doubting less than I used to. I used to try to understand the world from a secular viewpoint and then from a Christian viewpoint, and eventually I couldn't help but feel that the Christian viewpoint was more coherent, even though there are many parts of scripture that I admit I don't understand. Ultimately we are saved by faith, through grace, and this is a gift from God Ephesians 2:8-9. If you need help believing in the supernatural, then just look at all of the prophecies throughout the Bible that have come true. There is no way that someone could just guess and get that many prophecies correct. There has to be a higher power behind it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So my question is, what do you have to do or believe in order for it to count as believing in God? Also, how do you get to a point where you can know that God exists and not doubt it?

Seek and keep seeking, and believe that He Rewards those who Seek Him, who are called according to His Purpose.
It is a choice. (a choice you make)
As in "Choose TODAY who you will serve". That choice TODAY will change the rest of your life from TODAY on. (For GOOD, if you choose to serve God. Not for good, if you choose anything else).

I've been trying to figure out how to believe in God for a while now, and I always end up questioning my own motives. For one thing, I end up thinking that wanting everlasting life or just to have something in common with people who share my political views and moral values might be selfish.

God will deal with all of your motives, all the way back in your life to early childhood, and to today, and for the rest of your life.
(IF you chose TODAY to serve Him).
Everybody's motives are selfish, to start with.

For instance, I start thinking about how most people are willing to do horrible and immoral things if they don't believe in a higher power, and how a lack of Christianity can lead to people relying upon externalized morality to the point that if they can get away with something, they'll do it because no one is watching them or because society doesn't currently regard it as wrong. ...

What makes you think anyone will do anything good IF THEY BELIEVE IN A HIGHER POWER?
Or rather, the whole world may do the worse things in life even if they believe in a higher power - more executions, massacres, abominations are committed by multitudes who believe in a higher power all through history.

I can understand why it is a social good for people to accept the Christian religion and follow the moral codes suggested by it.

How can you understand that? It has actually resulted in devastating deception and horrible consequences all around the world for thousands of years.

I keep trying and failing to come up with something that holds up to my own intellectual scrutiny.

Christ was born to save men from their sin.
Not to satisfy anyone's intellect.
The intellect of this world, the wisdom and the knowledge of mankind,
chose not to honor Yhwh as the Creator,
and so He chose TO HIDE SALVATION from those who trust in intellect (scholars, religious leaders and teachers, etc).

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hello Jeremy,

I've been trying to figure out how to believe in God for a while now, and I always end up questioning my own motives. For one thing, I end up thinking that wanting everlasting life or just to have something in common with people who share my political views and moral values might be selfish.

I also get very caught up with the difference between wanting to believe in God, hoping God exists, and actually believing with certainty and knowledge that God exists. I've been in the first two situations many times, but I don't know that I've ever been in the third one. And I suspect the third one is what I would need to be able to call myself a Christian.

Actually, I don't think faith in Jesus/God is dependent on a person's having 'finally' arrived at a level of belief that entails certainty as to the existence of God. It's probably more accurate that say that faith, more or less, is a person's positive response to God Himself via those theological ideas that God has given us (i.e. those found in the New Testament, however fragmented and representative they may be of the actual historical events). So, some of your difficulty here, I think, is in your wresting with a conception of faith that has been foisted upon the public, but not reflective of the ideas present within the New Testament. In other words, people find it difficult to believe today because they begin with epistemological assumptions that have been framed by Enlightened philosophers. (And please realize that I am saying this as one who is also a very philosophical person.)

I'm a very philosophical person, and I end up coming very close to believing and stopping just short of actually believing in the supernatural. For instance, I start thinking about how most people are willing to do horrible and immoral things if they don't believe in a higher power, and how a lack of Christianity can lead to people relying upon externalized morality to the point that if they can get away with something, they'll do it because no one is watching them or because society doesn't currently regard it as wrong. I see the immorality and the degraded lifestyles a lack of belief produces in people. I can understand why it is a social good for people to accept the Christian religion and follow the moral codes suggested by it.

I also think about things like Plato's theory of forms, and wonder if simply the fact that the concept of God exists in our minds is enough to prove his existence. But then I realize that this doesn't point to any particular god, and may only be proof that there exists some sort of higher power without telling us anything about its nature. It also potentially suggests that God's existence is dependent on people believing in him or upon people existing to perceive his existence, which would seem to be an inappropriate conclusion.

Personally, I would ignore Plato, for the most part, and read modern philosophers, like Quinn, or Wittgenstein, or even some of the philosophical writings of some of the physicists.

As things stand, I find myself thinking I must be an Agnostic, because I'm always wondering what sort of higher power exists, and whether I just want it to be the Christian God because that falls in line with my culture... or whether it's actually plausible that this is more correct.

I appreciate your honesty, and in some ways, I think Christian faith does accommodate some level of ‘agnostic’ perception within the processes of faith.

I keep trying and failing to come up with something that holds up to my own intellectual scrutiny. One time, I even reached as far as wondering whether "The word was God," means that the text and the ideas of the Bible itself are God, and that the eternal life promised to believers is actually related to being remembered or recorded by future generations somehow. I know that's quite a reach and probably wouldn't be acceptable.

So my question is, what do you have to do or believe in order for it to count as believing in God?

The short answer is that you’re going to begin by questioning your own understanding of, and approach to, epistemology, as well as to the nature of history, the philosophy of history, along with the philosophy and nature of science, and the philosophy of religion . Once you’ve “adjusted” for these, then you may find that you’ll be able to adjust to a non-foundational, non-fundamentalist view of the Bible which does not hamper your attempts to have faith.

Also, how do you get to a point where you can know that God exists and not doubt it?

Well, Jeremy, you don’t. Again, in addition to what I said in the above paragraph, I think faith emerges as God’s Holy Spirit works in your mind and moves you to think and act in the world in which we now live, much of which will involve not only your being open to other paths of thought, but also your realizing that God does not intend for us to be fully gratified intellectually during our earthly life. There may very well still be some moments of "Eureka" involved in faith, but, if you’re constantly looking for the Bible to perfectly correspond in a literal fashion to either history or to the world in which we now live, you will find yourself consistently coming up short of faith.

Try to see faith as your acceptance of being caught in God's gravitational pull rather than simply as your own personal attempt to gain belief in God's existence through your own personal exertion.

Peace

2PhiloVoid

 

[jeremy1988]

Hello Jeremy,
Actually, I don't think faith in Jesus/God is dependent on a person's having 'finally' arrived at a level of belief that entails certainty as to the existence of God. It's probably more accurate that say that faith, more or less, is a person's positive response to God Himself via those theological ideas that God has given us (i.e. those found in the New Testament, however fragmented and representative they may be of the actual historical events). So, some of your difficulty here, I think, is in your wresting with a conception of faith that has been foisted upon the public, but not reflective of the ideas present within the New Testament. In other words, people find it difficult to believe today because they begin with epistemological assumptions that have been framed by Enlightened philosophers. (And please realize that I am saying this as one who is also a very philosophical person.)

Interesting, so you don't have to reach a point where you don't doubt God's existence at all in order to say you have faith?

I've actually been wondering about what kind of epistemological assumptions are problematic. I know that the Bible was written in a different time, so perhaps they are writing based on different assumptions that need to be taken into account?

Personally, I would ignore Plato, for the most part, and read modern philosophers, like Quinn, or Wittgenstein, or even some of the philosophical writings of some of the physicists.

I'll definitely be reading those. Thank you. I'm reading a lot of material in the process of trying to figure this out, and the more information and perspectives I have, the better.

The short answer is that you’re going to begin by questioning your own understanding of, and approach to, epistemology, as well as to the nature of history, the philosophy of history, along with the philosophy and nature of science, and the philosophy of religion . Once you’ve “adjusted” for these, then you may find that you’ll be able to adjust to a non-foundational, non-fundamentalist view of the Bible which does not hamper your attempts to have faith.

That's a good outline for what I should be focused on.

So, it seems like a theme in the responses I'm getting is that faith isn't an absence of doubt or a presence of knowledge. It's something else. I think that's probably a big part of what I've been misunderstanding.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Interesting, so you don't have to reach a point where you don't doubt God's existence at all in order to say you have faith?

Right. (Even though I know that some of my fellow Christians will disagree with this.)

I've actually been wondering about what kind of epistemological assumptions are problematic. I know that the Bible was written in a different time, so perhaps they are writing based on different assumptions that need to be taken into account?

Yes. Definitely.

I'll definitely be reading those. Thank you. I'm reading a lot of material in the process of trying to figure this out, and the more information and perspectives I have, the better.

Just remember, I only gave you a couple of names, but I didn't give you specifics to read. My point was to encourage you to go beyond Plato since philosophical investigation and development doesn't stand or fall with him ... (Also, I do have a handful of recommended books on my information page if you might want some specific suggestions for reading ... )

So, it seems like a theme in the responses I'm getting is that faith isn't an absence of doubt or a presence of knowledge. It's something else. I think that's probably a big part of what I've been misunderstanding.

Yes, doubt is something all of us have to wrestle with in various ways, Jeremy.

I wish you the best on your quest to find faith, and if I can be of any assistance, let me know.

2PhiloVoid

 

[Kenny'sID]

I've been trying to figure out how to believe in God for a while now, and I always end up questioning my own motives. For one thing, I end up thinking that wanting everlasting life or just to have something in common with people who share my political views and moral values might be selfish.

When God put the threat of either believe or go to Hell in front of us, don't you think he expected us to be selfish enough to not want Hell? The threat, choice, or whatever you want to call it, is there for a reason. I think we often take the term selfish too far...to me, it's just good sense to choose what God intended when he gave the ultimatum and if that's "selfish", God doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

There was a guy on here a few months back that said God would see the selfish intentions of those that chose God just for the sake of escaping Hell, and would send them to Hell. I won't go into all I said to the self righteous man that likely pretended Hell had nothing to do with him choosing Christ, but I will say, I asked him to show me where it's Biblical that God will condemn those who choose to be saved due to the threat of Hell, and got no answer.

If that's as far as our understanding goes at first, then choose God solely because of Hell if we like/must, then once in the door, realize there is much more too it than that, as we usually do... just as I feel God intended the threat, that is, to get us headed in the right direction. But even if we never realize it's not just about not Going to Hell, as long as we do as God asks of us, there is nothing Biblical that says we can't get into Heaven, even in the unlikely event, those low level intentions were all we could ever grasp.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I also get very caught up with the difference between wanting to believe in God, hoping God exists, and actually believing with certainty and knowledge that God exists. I've been in the first two situations many times, but I don't know that I've ever been in the third one. And I suspect the third one is what I would need to be able to call myself a Christian.

Try to go back to where you knew nothing, and before you started hearing all the nonsense about the big bang, or all from nothing, then evolution took over.

If you started fresh before hearing any of that, and after seeing how advanced all of creation is, would you really think it all just popped up out of nothing? To get even an atom to appear out of nowhere would be miraculous, yet you are supposed to believe that happened as well as what supposedly followed... things advanced even beyond our knowledge all came out of nowhere, or by accident? Sure the Atheist will throw argument at all that but doesn't change the fact those are the basics of what man is trying to tell us. Then you have to remember, the Satan of the Bible does exist and that he wants no one to believe in God and he works hard through man trying to get us to not believe in God. And it makes perfect sense he does exist once we see for ourselves the ridiculous stuff man is trying to make us believe. I mean why else woiuld they do that?

That said, in my view anyway, as ridiculous as some would like us to think the existence of God is, seems to me, it's ridiculous to think anything BUT God is responsible for all this.

As far as believing in the "supernatural" that you mention, what God does is absolutely natural to him, and it would be to us if we understood how it was done. As an I phone could easily be supernatural to people from the past, once they understand it, it's completely natural. Magic is supernatural until we understand it's just an illusion. Aliens, if there are any, them beaming from planet Xeon to earth might seem supernatural if they just appear, but once the technology is understood, it's not. Anyway, believe it or not, you get my point...in reality, nothing is supernatural.

If that doesn't help, let's try this:

2 men...both on a small showroom stage and both sitting beside their beautiful technologically advanced car. The Press in the audience ask the first man, "Where did you get that car?" he answers "I made/created it". The second man, being asked the same question answers, "It just appeared out of nowhere, over time".

Now honestly, who of the two are you going to believe?

 

[bling]

I've been trying to figure out how to believe in God for a while now, and I always end up questioning my own motives. For one thing, I end up thinking that wanting everlasting life or just to have something in common with people who share my political views and moral values might be selfish.

I also get very caught up with the difference between wanting to believe in God, hoping God exists, and actually believing with certainty and knowledge that God exists. I've been in the first two situations many times, but I don't know that I've ever been in the third one. And I suspect the third one is what I would need to be able to call myself a Christian.

I'm a very philosophical person, and I end up coming very close to believing and stopping just short of actually believing in the supernatural. For instance, I start thinking about how most people are willing to do horrible and immoral things if they don't believe in a higher power, and how a lack of Christianity can lead to people relying upon externalized morality to the point that if they can get away with something, they'll do it because no one is watching them or because society doesn't currently regard it as wrong. I see the immorality and the degraded lifestyles a lack of belief produces in people. I can understand why it is a social good for people to accept the Christian religion and follow the moral codes suggested by it.

I also think about things like Plato's theory of forms, and wonder if simply the fact that the concept of God exists in our minds is enough to prove his existence. But then I realize that this doesn't point to any particular god, and may only be proof that there exists some sort of higher power without telling us anything about its nature. It also potentially suggests that God's existence is dependent on people believing in him or upon people existing to perceive his existence, which would seem to be an inappropriate conclusion.

As things stand, I find myself thinking I must be an Agnostic, because I'm always wondering what sort of higher power exists, and whether I just want it to be the Christian God because that falls in line with my culture... or whether it's actually plausible that this is more correct.

I keep trying and failing to come up with something that holds up to my own intellectual scrutiny. One time, I even reached as far as wondering whether "The word was God," means that the text and the ideas of the Bible itself are God, and that the eternal life promised to believers is actually related to being remembered or recorded by future generations somehow. I know that's quite a reach and probably wouldn't be acceptable.

So my question is, what do you have to do or believe in order for it to count as believing in God? Also, how do you get to a point where you can know that God exists and not doubt it?

You do seem pretty philosophical about your belief.

Two things to begin with:

“Believing in God for selfish reasons” is really the only way a nonbeliever comes to God. If you are hell bound you certainly are not going to come to God for being hell bound. Look at the story of the prodigal son (Luke 15: 11-32) and read it carefully. The young son does not go to the father out of “love” for the father, but selfishly in hopes of having just some kind of life (even though he realizes he deserves nothing). If the young son had really been “macho” he would have stayed and starved to death (paid the piper, taken the punishment he fully deserved, not bothered his father further with is presence).

You see a requirement for being a Christian as being: “knowledge that God exists”. Knowledge is not faith and knowledge can work against you. Faith is what you need, but that is an extremely little faith and easy to extend. The lowliest mature adult on earth can trust (have faith) in the existence of a benevolent Creator, so faith is a humbling experience. Humility is needed to accept pure charity and that is what God is offering and a faith in the existence of a Creator is all the humility you need.

Knowledge of God’s existence comes with believing and most likely for you believer immersion baptism (Acts 2:38) which results in having the indwelling Holy Spirit. God is remaining “hidden” from you to some extent although you are to see him living in and through true Christians as pure unconditional Love. There are tons of evidences for God (every living thing) if you count them as evidences. Remember God is Love so if you experience this Godly type love you are experiencing God Himself.

There is only one way to relieve yourself of the burden in your conscience from the things you have done that has hurt others in the past (sins). You have to turn those burdens around and make them wonderful assets to your witness in this world.

 

[aiki]

I've been trying to figure out how to believe in God for a while now, and I always end up questioning my own motives. For one thing, I end up thinking that wanting everlasting life or just to have something in common with people who share my political views and moral values might be selfish.

Yup, those are selfish motives. Belief in God is a prerequisite to fellowship with Him. Is this what you want? Do you desire fellowship with God?

I also get very caught up with the difference between wanting to believe in God, hoping God exists, and actually believing with certainty and knowledge that God exists.

The difference between belief that is mere intellectual assent and the belief called "saving faith" is that the latter kind of belief is exerted with the expectation of change and with the intent to act positively on that belief while the former sort of belief is merely academic, having little or no effect upon one's living. A belief that saves is better defined as trust. It is one thing to believe a chair can hold your weight; it is quite another to trust yourself to the chair and sit on it. In the same way, believing Christ has died for your sins to bring you into reconciliation with God is not the same as trusting yourself to these truths and allowing them to transform your character and living. Certainty is not the crux of the matter. Trust is. One can trust without having perfect certainty. And in God's economy, we only come into a full, deep experience of Him after we put our trust in Him.

I can understand why it is a social good for people to accept the Christian religion and follow the moral codes suggested by it.

I suppose. But this quite misses the point of being a Christian. What you describe here are merely the side-effects of walking with God. The goal of Christianity is not an improved society but a personal relationship with one's Creator.

As things stand, I find myself thinking I must be an Agnostic, because I'm always wondering what sort of higher power exists, and whether I just want it to be the Christian God because that falls in line with my culture... or whether it's actually plausible that this is more correct.

See the Argument from the Resurrection.

www.reasonablefaith.org
www.str.org
www.crossexamined.org

I keep trying and failing to come up with something that holds up to my own intellectual scrutiny. One time, I even reached as far as wondering whether "The word was God," means that the text and the ideas of the Bible itself are God, and that the eternal life promised to believers is actually related to being remembered or recorded by future generations somehow. I know that's quite a reach and probably wouldn't be acceptable.

God works purposefully to confound human wisdom and intellect. Our pride in our ability to makes sense of things, to explain and rationalize everything, interferes with "walking by faith, not by sight" which is how every person who wants to walk with God must live. If you can't make your intellect subject to the superior - and sometimes mysterious and baffling - Person and ways of God, then walking with Him will be impossible. God doesn't ask us to "check our brains at the door" but He is determined that we see and acknowledge just how limited and flawed our intellect is when it comes to Him.

1 Corinthians 1:22-29
22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

Selah.

 

[ldonjohn]

Jeremy,
Many years ago, before I became a believer, a Christian, I wasn't sure if God was real, and I certainly did not know what it meant to believe in Him. While I was a kid growing up in church and hearing God's Word I really wasn't concerned about sin and hell, but later in my adult life God used the seed that was sown in my early years to draw me to seek the truth about Him. I was a seeker as you are now, and I really wanted to believe in God & in Jesus. Even though I wasn't sure if all those things I heard in church were true the thought of going to hell was enough motivation for me to search for the truth. Today I know that I was not being selfish as I began to look for the truth about becoming a believer in God because now I know that God was drawing me to seek after Him so He could make a believer out of me. God doesn't want anyone to go to hell.

As a seeker I was spiritually blind & could not understand the Bible, didn't know if it was true, had never opened a bible except in church, but one night I started reading in the Book of John hoping to find something there that would convince me that it was true, and desperately hoping I could somehow find what it meant to believe in God & in Jesus. I had absolutely no idea of what was about to happen to me that night as I read in the bible, but I was ready to accept whatever I would find there. That night, as I read the Gospel of John, the Holy Spirit opened my spiritually blind eyes as He showed me who Jesus is and what He did for me when He died on the cross to pay for my sins. The Holy Spirit completely convinced me that the Bible is the absolute truth, that God is real, and that Jesus is God who became a man so He could pay the penalty for my sins that I could never pay myself. God showed me how to “believe in Him” as He convinced me that all the things I had heard in church as a kid, and all that I was reading that night were His way of not only saving me from spending eternity in hell, but also is His way to change me now by giving me a new nature. When God saves us from our sin He, the Holy Spirit, also moves into our life and makes us a new person who can then understand spiritual truth, giving us the power to have victory over “self” and sin. He changes the way we think, He changes the things we want to do, He changes our whole focus of life. I was literally a blind man who suddenly could see the truth.

I have been accused by atheists of convincing myself that God is real because of my church background, and because I wanted to believe, but that is impossible. A person who is in darkness cannot see; he must have light. God gave me the light I needed as I read His Word, so no, Mr. Atheist if you are reading this, I did not convince myself'.

I am saying that the truth you seek is in the Bible, God's Word. If you will earnestly search the truth about God by studying His Word, God will show you how to believe in Him. You must “earnestly” seek Him. Read the Gospel of John, then Romans, and the entire New Testament. Read the Bible until God shows you how to believe. Don't give up on God if you don't find your answer immediately. I have been told by several atheists that they have read the Gospel of John and still do not believe in God or that the bible is true. My answer to them is that if you read anything in the bible expecting to not find any truth there well then don't expect God to show you the truth. Read & re-read scripture until God opens your eyes and allows you to see His truth. You will find your answer there.

Don

 

[evoeth]

I'm a very philosophical person, and I end up coming very close to believing and stopping just short of actually believing in the supernatural. For instance, I start thinking about how most people are willing to do horrible and immoral things if they don't believe in a higher power, and how a lack of Christianity can lead to people relying upon externalized morality to the point that if they can get away with something, they'll do it because no one is watching them or because society doesn't currently regard it as wrong. I see the immorality and the degraded lifestyles a lack of belief produces in people. I can understand why it is a social good for people to accept the Christian religion and follow the moral codes suggested by it.

A few points. First, Christianity is an externalized morality. It is a basic extension of the authoritarian parenting model: Obey or I will beat you (send you to hell). There is nothing internal to this moral system. Second, there are countless non-Christians in the world. Six billion to be more specific. And Christian regions clearly have no monopoly on moral or immoral behavior. We see all sorts of behavior all over the world.

 

[Noxot]

So my question is, what do you have to do or believe in order for it to count as believing in God? Also, how do you get to a point where you can know that God exists and not doubt it?

God requires that we have freedom and so we can always decide to not believe. to believe in God we must be like God is and in being in God we find our image as well because humans can't be themselves without God since all of reality is based on the primal reality who is the Trinity.

we can know God exists and not doubt it by experiencing the primordial reality but even then we would still have to reject lies rather than to believe in them because we always have freedom and reality is a play of love summed up by 3. the Holy Spirit reveals a layer of reality that is not at first noticeable to people. in reality there is a place I will call "the world of spirits" and it functions by its own laws and is yet united to this our natural world. our natural world is itself a certain kind of expression of Spirit.

and so religion is a shallow thing without actual and real experience and life of God - that life which God promises to us. if you want to know God then I can not tell you the way for only God knows the way but I would suggest giving ear to those pure souls who love God and have known God personally rather than by mere outward doctrines of religious traditions. all such things are good and God given and yet they are only secondary and come forth from spiritual experience.

once you find that all of reality is more than it seems, that you literally already exist as a spirit, things become a bit clearer. but spiritual discipline is key. things such as inner humility and praying to God. things like being completely honest as you can and to question God and seek him out. to knock until you receive. to see God working in your life and through all of reality. God always leads us as much as is possible whilst we remain free, our small part is to be like mary was for that virgin is the one who gave birth to Christ and so it must be for each soul who desires after God.

 

[Farine]

There is a great book written by C.S. Lewis called Mere Christianity. I think you might like it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I've been trying to figure out how to believe in God for a while now, and I always end up questioning my own motives. For one thing, I end up thinking that wanting everlasting life or just to have something in common with people who share my political views and moral values might be selfish.

I also get very caught up with the difference between wanting to believe in God, hoping God exists, and actually believing with certainty and knowledge that God exists. I've been in the first two situations many times, but I don't know that I've ever been in the third one. And I suspect the third one is what I would need to be able to call myself a Christian.

I'm a very philosophical person, and I end up coming very close to believing and stopping just short of actually believing in the supernatural. For instance, I start thinking about how most people are willing to do horrible and immoral things if they don't believe in a higher power, and how a lack of Christianity can lead to people relying upon externalized morality to the point that if they can get away with something, they'll do it because no one is watching them or because society doesn't currently regard it as wrong. I see the immorality and the degraded lifestyles a lack of belief produces in people. I can understand why it is a social good for people to accept the Christian religion and follow the moral codes suggested by it.

I also think about things like Plato's theory of forms, and wonder if simply the fact that the concept of God exists in our minds is enough to prove his existence. But then I realize that this doesn't point to any particular god, and may only be proof that there exists some sort of higher power without telling us anything about its nature. It also potentially suggests that God's existence is dependent on people believing in him or upon people existing to perceive his existence, which would seem to be an inappropriate conclusion.

As things stand, I find myself thinking I must be an Agnostic, because I'm always wondering what sort of higher power exists, and whether I just want it to be the Christian God because that falls in line with my culture... or whether it's actually plausible that this is more correct.

I keep trying and failing to come up with something that holds up to my own intellectual scrutiny. One time, I even reached as far as wondering whether "The word was God," means that the text and the ideas of the Bible itself are God, and that the eternal life promised to believers is actually related to being remembered or recorded by future generations somehow. I know that's quite a reach and probably wouldn't be acceptable.

So my question is, what do you have to do or believe in order for it to count as believing in God? Also, how do you get to a point where you can know that God exists and not doubt it?

Jeremy,

God gives each of us a measure of faith and God can give you more faith.

Question: "Where does faith come from?"

Answer: Faith is the avenue or the instrument God uses to bring salvation to His people. God gives faith because of His grace and mercy, because He loves us (Ephesians 4—5). Faith comes from God in the form of a gift (Ephesians 2:8).

A gift is not earned by some good deed or kind word, and it is not given because the giver expects a gift in return—under any of those conditions, a gift would not be a gift. The Bible emphasizes that faith is a gift because God deserves all of the glory for our salvation. If the receiver of faith could do anything whatsoever to deserve or earn the gift, that person would have every right to boast (Ephesians 2:9). But all such boasting is excluded (Romans 3:27). God wants Christians to understand they have done nothing to earn faith, it’s only because of what Christ did on the cross that God gives anyone faith (Ephesians 2:5, 16).

By knowing our saving faith comes from God alone, it should encourage Christians to “not think of yourself more highly than you ought,” but remember God decides the measure of faith each one receives (Romans 12:3). The apostle Paul gives an example of the godly humility believers should have when they contemplate their own faith: “Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 1:13–14). Paul understood faith in Christ was given to him because of God’s grace in spite of his own sinful life (1 Corinthians 4:7).

The Bible specifies the way, or the means, that God gives faith to people. “Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ” (Romans 10:17).

It is the Word of God that produces faith. Someone could receive faith while hearing a sermon teaching the gospel, someone else by reading about Jesus in the Bible—any time the true gospel of Jesus is communicated, there is potential for faith. This is why it’s of paramount importance for believers everywhere to be obedient to the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16–20) and tell people what Christ has done for humanity. Faith is not the product of a preacher’s compelling presentation, his eloquence, or even his theological soundness—faith is given through the message about Jesus. This is the means God has chosen.

It is good for anyone who wants faith to ask for it. God freely gives what is good to all who ask (Luke 11:9–12), and it’s good to ask for an increase of faith (Luke 17:5; Mark 9:24). Jesus prayed for Peter’s faith to be strengthened (Luke 22:32). As with any gift from God, it is our responsibility to exercise the gift and not become complacent, lazy, or apathetic (Romans 12:1–2, 6–8). Christians can find comfort and peace of mind knowing their faith is from God, because He has said He will finish the good work He started (Philippians 1:6). God is the Author and the Perfecter of faith (Hebrews 12:2a; Romans 8:29–30).

http://www.gotquestions.org/where-does-faith-come-from.html


It's all there for you my friend. Read all the scriptures outlined. It comes from hearing/reading God's Word.

 

[ldonjohn]

Jeremy,

WOW! It's amazing that an atheists thinks he is an authority on the subject of Christianity. That post is a perfect example of “the blind leading the blind.”

You have been given some good biblically sound advice here, and you have been given some advice that is the result of complete ignorance.

Jeremy, a forum such as this one can be a good place to find some valuable advice from “real” Christians. A real Christian will probably attempt to explain how he or she came into a saving relationship with Christ. A real Christian can testify of the change in his or her life brought about by the truth found in God's Word which presents to the reader or hearer the message of God's Grace to a lost world, the message of the Cross, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

God uses that message to draw unbelievers to Christ so that He can forgive their sin, give them eternal life, and change them from within. A real Christian has the Holy Spirit, who is God, living inside of them, and He, the indwelling Holy Spirit changes the way the Christian thinks, He guides them to spiritual truth through His Word, He changes the things the Christian wants to do, He changes the way the Christian treats others, He changes the way the Christian reacts to difficulty, etc. IOW, the indwelling Holy Spirit gives the new Christian the ability to live a life that is not controlled by self & by sin. That change from within could be described as an “internalized moral code” that directs the Christians' life. Notice, I did not say that the Christian will not sin. I am saying that he/she will have the ability to not allow sin to dominate their lives. Nor, did I say that Christianity gives the Christian a license to sin and get away with it; not at all. Christians fight a battle everyday; a struggle between the old nature and the new nature for control of the Christian. Those Christians who allow the old sinful nature to control them are likely to find themselves under the correcting hand of God, and if they do not find themselves being corrected by God, then they might need examine themselves to be sure they are actually true believers, real Christians, because the Bible says that God corrects His children. The bible also says that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one. I was one of those “fake” Christians before I found the true meaning of Christianity.

Jeremy, in my other post I pointed you to the Bible. The answers you seek will be found there. God says in His Word that “if you will earnestly seek Him you will find Him.” You ARE looking for the truth about God, aren't you? When you do find that truth, and the Bible is the only place where you will find it, then you will find God. When you find God, He will show you how to believe in Him, and He will even give you the ability to believe in Him. Yes, God will give you the light you need so you can see the truth. He will give you His light which will bring you out of the darkness in which you are now living, the darkness of unbelief, into the light of the truth of His Word.

Jeremy, I am NOT an atheist. I am NOT giving my OPINION of Christianity. I am speaking as one who “has been there and done that.” I am a person who at one time was living in that darkness of unbelief. Without even knowing what I was doing, and out of a sense of desperation I earnestly searched for the truth about God by reading the Bible, and I wasn't even sure that the Bible was true, but I open it and began reading the Book of John, the Gospel of John. I found my answers there, and became a real believer. God opened my spiritually blind eyes and gave ME the light I needed so I could see the truth about Him. He, God, convinced me of the truth about Him and He gave me the ability to believe Him.

Explaining how to believe in God or how to believe in Jesus, or explaining what it means to “believe” to someone who has never become a “believer” is just about impossible to do. I could use the words “trust,” or “confidence,” or “faith,” or some other words to try to explain “believing” in God, but the only way to fully understand the meaning of “believing” in God is to allow God Himself to show you & to convince you of its meaning. God uses scripture to draw people to Himself. That's what He will do for you if & when you earnestly seek after Him by reading His Word. I recommend that you read the Gospel of John and the Book of Romans; and I personally prefer the KJV. You must either hear it or read it, or both. It's up to you. Your eternity depends on your decision to either ignore God's Word or to search His Word. Jeremy, your eternity will be decided by 3 votes. Two votes have already been cast. The devil has voted that you spend eternity in hell. God has voted that you spend eternity in heaven with Him. Your vote will be the one that decides which place you spend your eternity. Your choice to either ignore God or to seek after Him will be your vote. Which will you chose?

Don

 

[Question ?]

I have been touched by God three times and it is hard to believe he does not exist. I am convinced he exists, my life as I know it has changed and I am a different person for what I use to be. name one

 

[ToBeLoved]

I've been trying to figure out how to believe in God for a while now, and I always end up questioning my own motives. For one thing, I end up thinking that wanting everlasting life or just to have something in common with people who share my political views and moral values might be selfish.

I also get very caught up with the difference between wanting to believe in God, hoping God exists, and actually believing with certainty and knowledge that God exists. I've been in the first two situations many times, but I don't know that I've ever been in the third one. And I suspect the third one is what I would need to be able to call myself a Christian.

I'm a very philosophical person, and I end up coming very close to believing and stopping just short of actually believing in the supernatural. For instance, I start thinking about how most people are willing to do horrible and immoral things if they don't believe in a higher power, and how a lack of Christianity can lead to people relying upon externalized morality to the point that if they can get away with something, they'll do it because no one is watching them or because society doesn't currently regard it as wrong. I see the immorality and the degraded lifestyles a lack of belief produces in people. I can understand why it is a social good for people to accept the Christian religion and follow the moral codes suggested by it.

I also think about things like Plato's theory of forms, and wonder if simply the fact that the concept of God exists in our minds is enough to prove his existence. But then I realize that this doesn't point to any particular god, and may only be proof that there exists some sort of higher power without telling us anything about its nature. It also potentially suggests that God's existence is dependent on people believing in him or upon people existing to perceive his existence, which would seem to be an inappropriate conclusion.

As things stand, I find myself thinking I must be an Agnostic, because I'm always wondering what sort of higher power exists, and whether I just want it to be the Christian God because that falls in line with my culture... or whether it's actually plausible that this is more correct.

I keep trying and failing to come up with something that holds up to my own intellectual scrutiny. One time, I even reached as far as wondering whether "The word was God," means that the text and the ideas of the Bible itself are God, and that the eternal life promised to believers is actually related to being remembered or recorded by future generations somehow. I know that's quite a reach and probably wouldn't be acceptable.

So my question is, what do you have to do or believe in order for it to count as believing in God? Also, how do you get to a point where you can know that God exists and not doubt it?

Why are you so caught up in your own motivations? Do you not know that God Himself, the Holy Spirit will indwell you as a believer?

You are thinking yourself right out of belief and faith.

First, study what is faith. Faith in Christ is the criteria for eternal life. Pray for faith, even if you don't have enough faith now. God honors the requests of those who sincerely seek. Help yourself.

Question: "What does the Bible say about faith?"

Answer: Hebrews 11:1 tells us that faith is “being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.” Perhaps no other component of the Christian life is more important than faith. We cannot purchase it, sell it or give it to our friends. So what is faith and what role does faith play in the Christian life? The dictionary defines faith as “belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof.” It also defines faith as “belief in and devotion to God.” The Bible has much more to say about faith and how important it is. In fact, it is so important that, without faith, we have no place with God, and it is impossible to please Him (Hebrews 11:6). According to the Bible, faith is belief in the one, true God without actually seeing Him.

Where does faith come from? Faith is not something we conjure up on our own, nor is it something we are born with, nor is faith a result of diligence in study or pursuit of the spiritual. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes it clear that faith is a gift from God, not because we deserve it, have earned it, or are worthy to have it. It is not from ourselves; it is from God. It is not obtained by our power or our free will. Faith is simply given to us by God, along with His grace and mercy, according to His holy plan and purpose, and because of that, He gets all the glory.

Why have faith? God designed a way to distinguish between those who belong to Him and those who don’t, and it is called faith. Very simply, we need faith to please God. God tells us that it pleases Him that we believe in Him even though we cannot see Him. A key part of Hebrews 11:6 tells us that “he rewards those who earnestly seek him.” This is not to say that we have faith in God just to get something from Him. However, God loves to bless those who are obedient and faithful. We see a perfect example of this in Luke 7:50. Jesus is engaged in dialog with a sinful woman when He gives us a glimpse of why faith is so rewarding. “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” The woman believed in Jesus Christ by faith, and He rewarded her for it. Finally, faith is what sustains us to the end, knowing that by faith we will be in heaven with God for all eternity. “Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls” (1 Peter 1:8-9).

Examples of faith. Hebrews chapter 11 is known as the “faith chapter” because in it great deeds of faith are described. By faith Abel offered a pleasing sacrifice to the Lord (v. 4); by faith Noah prepared the ark in a time when rain was unknown (v. 7); by faith Abraham left his home and obeyed God’s command to go he knew not where, then willingly offered up his only son (vv. 8-10, 17); by faith Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt (vv. 23-29); by faith Rahab received the spies of Israel and saved her life (v. 31). Many more heroes of the faith are mentioned “who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies” (vv. 33-34). Clearly, the existence of faith is demonstrated by action.

According to the Bible, faith is essential to Christianity. Without demonstrating faith and trust in God, we have no place with Him. We believe in God’s existence by faith. Most people have a vague, disjointed notion of who God is but lack the reverence necessary for His exalted position in their lives. These people lack the true faith needed to have an eternal relationship with the God who loves them. Our faith can falter at times, but because it is the gift of God, given to His children, He provides times of trial and testing in order to prove that our faith is real and to sharpen and strengthen it. This is why James tells us to consider it “pure joy” when we fall into trials, because the testing of our faith produces perseverance and matures us, providing the evidence that our faith is real (James 1:2-4).
https://gotquestions.org/Bible-faith.html

Faith is not that hard. It is

“being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.”

Don't make God's free gift out to be rocket science. It is not. It is a free gift, I'd grab it and hold on to it.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

I've been trying to figure out how to believe in God for a while now, and I always end up questioning my own motives. For one thing, I end up thinking that wanting everlasting life or just to have something in common with people who share my political views and moral values might be selfish.

I also get very caught up with the difference between wanting to believe in God, hoping God exists, and actually believing with certainty and knowledge that God exists. I've been in the first two situations many times, but I don't know that I've ever been in the third one. And I suspect the third one is what I would need to be able to call myself a Christian.

I'm a very philosophical person, and I end up coming very close to believing and stopping just short of actually believing in the supernatural. For instance, I start thinking about how most people are willing to do horrible and immoral things if they don't believe in a higher power, and how a lack of Christianity can lead to people relying upon externalized morality to the point that if they can get away with something, they'll do it because no one is watching them or because society doesn't currently regard it as wrong. I see the immorality and the degraded lifestyles a lack of belief produces in people. I can understand why it is a social good for people to accept the Christian religion and follow the moral codes suggested by it.

I also think about things like Plato's theory of forms, and wonder if simply the fact that the concept of God exists in our minds is enough to prove his existence. But then I realize that this doesn't point to any particular god, and may only be proof that there exists some sort of higher power without telling us anything about its nature. It also potentially suggests that God's existence is dependent on people believing in him or upon people existing to perceive his existence, which would seem to be an inappropriate conclusion.

As things stand, I find myself thinking I must be an Agnostic, because I'm always wondering what sort of higher power exists, and whether I just want it to be the Christian God because that falls in line with my culture... or whether it's actually plausible that this is more correct.

I keep trying and failing to come up with something that holds up to my own intellectual scrutiny. One time, I even reached as far as wondering whether "The word was God," means that the text and the ideas of the Bible itself are God, and that the eternal life promised to believers is actually related to being remembered or recorded by future generations somehow. I know that's quite a reach and probably wouldn't be acceptable.

So my question is, what do you have to do or believe in order for it to count as believing in God? Also, how do you get to a point where you can know that God exists and not doubt it?

I am replying without reading all of the responses in this thread, sorry if it's already been said.

Have you tried to disengage, separate your thinking from the ideas of Christianity specifically? Try and have as open mind as you can possibly have? A fresh, new thinking? Looking at all things as if you are just born in this world, and so to try and understand and evaluate things in the most abstract, objective, neutral way? At all possible? Did you think of such possibility?