What does it mean to be perfect?

[Tawhano]

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

1John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Now this sure looks confusing doesn’t it? How can we be perfect like God? Those who sin are of the devil? Yet we read that all have sin. Anyone who says they haven’t sin is a liar we are taught in the scriptures. Man’s heart is evil continually the scriptures teach us.

Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job was perfect?

Job 9:20
If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

He didn’t think so. So why did the scriptures say he was perfect?

Philippians 3: 12-15
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Paul was perfect?

Philippians 3: 12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

He didn’t think so. He was still striving to be perfect. Why would Paul, who admits to not being perfect, preach to those who were already perfect?

Perhaps the word perfect means other things as well as being without sin. The literal translation of the Greek word (τέλειος : teleios) used above is to be complete, as when you assemble something and all the parts are there and working; it is complete. Perhaps we need to examine each passage that exhorts the brethren to be perfect and see if it is talking about being without sin or perfect in another fashion.

Romans 4:3-5
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

We work to build ourselves up because we have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Our works do not save us, our faith does. Our faith makes us perfect in an imperfect body.

Romans 7:23-25
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

As long as we are in this flesh this war will continue. We live for the hope that we can fight the good fight and obtain the promise when Jesus returns and makes all things new.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

When Christ returns for His bride then shall our flesh be changed. In the meantime, on earth in our sinful flesh, we have the Holy Spirit that makes us perfect in the eyes of the Lord.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

What do you believe it means to be perfect?

 

[nephilimiyr]

Tawhano you put together an excellent post. There is nothing in there I can disagree with. You quote scripture and then state your interpretation of it in the same way I would.

My belief is that we are made perfect by the Holy Spirit indwelt in us as well as our faith that this is so, our faith that we are made perfect with God through our belief in Jesus Christ's gift of salvation.

Yes our endeavor is to live as Jesus did, without sin, but because of the sinful flesh we inhabit now we are at war with ourselves. It is a constant battle to live as Jesus Christ did and although this constant battle was also fought by him we are not him. We are our own selves and none of us, as the scriptures say will be made perfect untill Jesus comes again.

The scriptures say that when Jesus appears then will death be swallowed up in victory for us. I Corinthians 15:53-57, For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56)The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57)But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. When does Paul say this will happen? he says in verse 52 at the last trump. I Cor. 15:52, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. How shall we be changed? we will change from corruptible to incorruptible or in other words from imperfect to perfect, from with sin to without sin.

In I John 3:2 it says we wont be like Jesus untill he appears. 3:2, Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Only when Jesus appears shall we be perfect as he is.

 

[c64tm]

** As long as we are in this flesh this war will continue. We live for the hope that we can fight the good fight and obtain the promise when Jesus returns and makes all things new.**

Isn't the first that arrives, antichrist? people will be accepting the mark of the beast?

The way I know the story is antichrist will come here, and make everyone beleive he is christ, and offer them the mark of the beast onto their hand, or forehead. (This is the guy who is supposedly going to make fire in the sky to convince everyone he is christ)

Then after that is over, Jesus our Lord will come and save us?

 

[tynian]

Job was only perfect according to jewish law.

But Nobody is perfect since the fault of the first man and woman.

Olnly Jésus cans save us

 

[Tawhano]

tynian said:
But Nobody is perfect since the fault of the first man and woman.

If nobody is perfect then why do we see these scriptures that appear to say otherwise?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

1 Corinthians 2:5-6
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

Philippians 3:15
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

It appears that the Bible teaches that we can be perfect but on the other hand it teaches that our flesh is weak. This is the purpose of this thread; to explore what it means to be perfect.

 

[tynian]

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I think, it's to say we have to come to perfection.
But men are weak, the sin is in te world.
Whitout Jésus, no salvation, so no perfection.

I hope you will understand what I mean.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I think, it's to say we have to come to perfection.
But men are weak, the sin is in te world.
Whitout Jésus, no salvation, so no perfection.

I hope you will understand what I mean.

Tawhano is looking more for an answer of what the Greek word in the passage is saying. There are several different meanings to the word teleios, Strongs number 5046.
Here's a page with the listings of the different meanings and references to verses.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5046&version=kjv

Here's how they're listed

1) Brought to it's end, finished

2) Wanting nothing necessary to completeness

3) Perfect

4) That which is perfect
a. consummate human integrity and virtue

b. full grown, adult age, mature



I have to go with 4a. Consummate human integrity and virtue and here's why.

The meaing of consummate in the Websters New World dictionary is put like this:
1. Complete and perfect in every way; supreme
2. Very skillful, highly expert.

Lets look at Matthew 5:48 again shall we. Be ye perfect, even as your father which is in heaven is perfect.

We are not in heaven as the father is in heaven therefore we are unable to be like him. The father has his virtues and integrities to live by as someone living in heaven as a supreme, holy being. But we will never measure up because of this sinful flesh we live in now. We are told by Jesus that as we live as children of God we must always strive to be as the Father but we can only do so as created fallen beings.

So, be ye therefore perfect down here as your Father is perfect up there. See what I'm saying? Down here we are only going to be as perfect as our world and flesh allows us to be. God's world is that of heaven above, a place we are not in at this present time.

Yes God can and has proven to be able to live in this world and this flesh without sinning and being perfect. And although Jesus promised to send the "comforter" and that he will live in us this doesn't mean that he will take total control over us. I agree that this is what God wants but God doesn't force it. God waits for us to give in to him and his will.

What I'm suggesting, or even asking, is this. The 4a meaning of teleios can be applied to both us and God? We must strive to be consummate in our integrities and virtues as God is consummate in his integrities and virtues? Very interesting thought don't you think? I believe this could be the meaning of Matt. 5:48.

Now it's important to know that by answering Tawhano's question we are not asking ourselves what the meaning of perfect is but what the meaning of teleios is. Perfect is just an English word used by the translators that just so happends to be 1 of several possible meanings.

As I look at the english word "perfect" and find it's meaning I can't see useing this as the actual meaning of teleios in Matt. 5:48 because the useage of the word would suggest we can be flawless, without defect or omission and that would go against other scriptures saying that we all sin and must go to Jesus for forgiveness. 1 John 1:8-10, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. Therefore I reject the translation being that of perfect.

 

[tynian]

Sorry nephilimiyr

I'don't understand english very well, thank for tthe explanation.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Sorry nephilimiyr

I'don't understand english very well, thank for tthe explanation.

Hey, It's not that I understand Greek all that well either but that I just figured that Tawhano wants us to discuss the meaning of teleios.

Your thoughts in your post are still valid by the way
After all our views on this are very similar. I just go more into detail with it.

 

[Tawhano]

I apologize for abandoning this thread; I was distracted by a couple of other threads.

Thanks tynian and nephilimiyr for your responses. I think we all share the same understanding about being perfect. I was hoping to get some opposing views to spice up the thread but it looks like this topic isn’t at all popular.

I think we are perfect only in Christ despite our weaknesses. It is through the strength of Christ and the Holy Spirit in us that makes us perfect not that we become perfect in our flesh. We are commanded to be perfect as God is perfect and that can only happen because our weaknesses are ignored (blotted out) and it is our faith in Christ that God sees, it that way we are seen as being perfect.

 

[Andrew]

Our standing before God is all wrapped up in the performance and standing of our High Priest. How God treats us today is how God treats Jesus our High Priest. How much God loves the Christian today is how much God loves Jesus. That is why one has to be IN Christ first.

So, since Jesus is perfect before the Father, so are we, only and only because we are in Christ.

As He is, so are we in this world!

 

[leecappella]

'Perfect', biblically speaking, I have always thought to mean spiritually mature. I would have to look up 'perfect' in my Strong's and see, but for now, I'll say it means to be spiritually mature.