What doctrines are non-negotiable?

Cogent said:

Hm, I figured you meant how a person interprets it (especially those that clearly apply their own) and what specifically they may focus on the most, reflects their own psyche. That's something I picked up on a while back...

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well i've found the way one approaches the text of revelation can affect one's psyche . but i was just referring to applying it in real life .

Standing Up said:

So, you'd also conclude Timothy letters or Romans or 1 Peter are not for us?

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Not written to us does not equal not useful for us.
'All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"

Michael Collum said:

well i've found the way one approaches the text of revelation can affect one's psyche . but i was just referring to applying it in real life .

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Righto.

Michael Collum said:

well i've found the way one approaches the text of revelation can affect one's psyche . but i was just referring to applying it in real life .

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I agree it affects one's thinking and theology. Could you expound a bit on the application to real life?

Rev Randy said:

I agree it affects one's thinking and theology. Could you expound a bit on the application to real life?

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I'm not speaking for Michael, but I'd like to respond on my own, if I may.

I remember when I read NT Wright's Suprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection and the Mission of the Church, he really helped paint a picture of how Eschatology is really about now. I'm paraphrasing because it's been a while since I've read the book, but essentially what he was saying is that when we understand our future is here and that God's plan is to restore and renew things we desire to take part in bringing that future reality into the present to the best of our ability. So we strive to resolve injustices and heal wounds and respect our neighbor and the Earth because that's all going to be happening when the Kingdom of God is completed at Christ's second coming anyway.

When we engage in those things that Christ called us to do like helping "the least of these", then we're proactively dragging the Kingdom of Heaven a bit closer from the future into the present.

Contrast that with the escapist model of Eschatology where at some point, regardless of "when" exactly, Christians will be evacuated from creation as we know it and whisked away to another cosmic location to live in some kind of Olympian bliss.

To me, understanding that Christ desires to mend his creation, to restore the balance and put an end to pain, corruption and exploitation is a notion that makes Eschatology far more compelling for me because it truly does make it relevant. Scanning headlines on a daily basis to see how some misunderstood "prophecy" might be unfolding isn't relevant, let alone orthodox, but living and working within the understanding that God's working towards a goal of completing a restoration effort and we can work alongside him makes everything we do eschatological. It all matters.

Cogent said:

I'm not speaking for Michael, but I'd like to respond on my own, if I may.

I remember when I read NT Wright's Suprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection and the Mission of the Church, he really helped paint a picture of how Eschatology is really about now. I'm paraphrasing because it's been a while since I've read the book, but essentially what he was saying is that when we understand our future is here and that God's plan is to restore and renew things we desire to take part in bringing that future reality into the present to the best of our ability. So we strive to resolve injustices and heal wounds and respect our neighbor and the Earth because that's all going to be happening when the Kingdom of God is completed at Christ's second coming anyway.

When we engage in those things that Christ called us to do like helping "the least of these", then we're proactively dragging the Kingdom of Heaven a bit closer from the future into the present.

Contrast that with the escapist model of Eschatology where at some point, regardless of "when" exactly, Christians will be evacuated from creation as we know it and whisked away to another cosmic location to live in some kind of Olympian bliss.

To me, understanding that Christ desires to mend his creation, to restore the balance and put an end to pain, corruption and exploitation is a notion that makes Eschatology far more compelling for me because it truly does make it relevant. Scanning headlines on a daily basis to see how some misunderstood "prophecy" might be unfolding isn't relevant, let alone orthodox, but living and working within the understanding that God's working towards a goal of completing a restoration effort and we can work alongside him makes everything we do eschatological. It all matters.

Click to expand...

I'm a here and now guy myself. I see many ministries based solely on a eminent doom quickly coming on the very near horizon Seeing that preaching such causes such a dreary outlook an escape theory had to be invented. A near advent ( if you will) in which we are beamed up leaving our clothing neatly folded in a stack. and then Jesus coming back seven (count 'em, seven) years kinda flies in the face of no man knows the day or time. It also goes directly against the Parable of the wheat and tares. Were the Tares not burned before the wheat was gathered into the storehouse? I guess "the kingdom of heaven is like unto' was mistakenly spoken?
Today is what matters. It's the beginning of eternity.
This would be off topic if some did not hold to the rapture theology as a non-negotiable. I have been told by more than one pastor that not believing it was a salvation breaker. If those pastors just happen to be right, I guess I'll be busting hell wide open with the majority of Christendom.

Scott4Him said:

Obviously Christians do not all agree on every nuisance of Scripture. There are some doctrines (salvation by grace through faith and not of works Eph 2:8-9) that I see as non-negotiable.

Others (Jesus clearly taught a post-tribualtion rapture in Matthew 24) I view as important but not worth breaking fellowship over.

All Scripture is God breathed, so it's all important.

What doctrines do you view add non negotiable? It doesn't have to be an exhaustive list, my post certainly isn't

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I agree with the above but the tribulation one I think is debatable.

I think that God is the alpha and omega - beginning and the end. God is sovereign. God is omnipotent, omnipresent etc. I believe He has a plan. God is love and desires relationship with us. The trinity, is a definite. There are more but I'd say those are the tops...

Rev Randy said:

I agree it affects one's thinking and theology. Could you expound a bit on the application to real life?

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I find it helpful when talking to people whose life is unravelling. the way the mind unravells is very Apocalpsis .

also sometimes i notice the patterns in the news . so it helps frame the pattern .. and also take it from a calm point of view .. as i also remember this same pattern happening a decade or 5 years ago . also in social situations, am i the beast, am i the harlot, am i the christ, am i the dragon, am i the abyss? if so what evil have i released into this world? Am i questions help with the application to life with the story of revelation . its ripples really seem deep in this world . especially since the holocaust . though also echos and ripples since the iron foot was ground to powder by Christ the rock back in his time.

also the seven churches .. hmmm .. it depends on how your heart looks at it . but it reveals a lot about yourself .

for example the church of Ephesus

To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.
4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.


1) when i go to churches at times .. i notice an additional presence other than the presence of God that is present in all creation .. i call it "the angel of the church" if i listen to it, i get a sense of what the teachings are there . and every church in the thousands of denominations at a local level .. has an entity like this. but whether you agree or disagree . this is what i experience .

2) the seven stars as defined in chapter 1 are the seven angels of the seven churches spoken of in revelation . the seven lampstands are the seven churches .. so as a city on a hill shines its light .. but does not hide it under a bucket .

3) this one is very relevant today .. because there are many error correctors in the christian sphere of influence .. so many infact that people may wonder if we do anything else .. but God commends this, he doesn't like liars .. but the reason i used "but" earlier is that those who look for errors find them .. and as Jesus said in Matthew i believe "because of the increase of iniquity the hearts of many will grow cold .. but those who endure to the end will be saved" i look at this passage and see that the endurance has to do with the love that is in one's heart .. John's first letter does confirm this in regards to love being made complete in us is what gives us confidence on judgment day .. and that Love is God .. so queue the parable of the wise and unwise virgins .. and get away from me .. i never knew you etc . So today how this applies in my life .. i look at what is .. it may be negative .. positive .. genuinely indescribable but nonetheless is .. but what is most important is that love . for in this letter .. it is written that if the love does not return to that assembly .. the light will be put out .. because love .. is the light of the assembly .. and of the heart of every Christian . when the love isn't there .. God isn't there either . which reminds me of the closing of the prophet Ezekiel .. in that there will be a city named "God is there" perhaps we are to be a type and sign of such a future promise . perhaps .

It also says to me .. without love .. what profit would there be to eat of the tree of life .. and live forever? i could live a thousand years twice told .. but without love invigorating me .. and remaining inside me .. it indeed would be vanity and a chasing after the wind .

Also there was this mystical interpretation i used to heal my mind related to the seven churches related to having the seven stars and the seven candlesticks within me .. and repairing them and lighting them in turn .. and that was very helpful .. but its all very subconscious now . the application lies in your heart's desire .

Rev Randy said:

Cogent said:

I'm not speaking for Michael, but I'd like to respond on my own, if I may.

I remember when I read NT Wright's Surprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection and the Mission of the Church, he really helped paint a picture of how Eschatology is really about now. I'm paraphrasing because it's been a while since I've read the book, but essentially what he was saying is that when we understand our future is here and that God's plan is to restore and renew things we desire to take part in bringing that future reality into the present to the best of our ability. So we strive to resolve injustices and heal wounds and respect our neighbor and the Earth because that's all going to be happening when the Kingdom of God is completed at Christ's second coming anyway.

When we engage in those things that Christ called us to do like helping "the least of these", then we're proactively dragging the Kingdom of Heaven a bit closer from the future into the present.

Contrast that with the escapist model of Eschatology where at some point, regardless of "when" exactly, Christians will be evacuated from creation as we know it and whisked away to another cosmic location to live in some kind of Olympian bliss.

To me, understanding that Christ desires to mend his creation, to restore the balance and put an end to pain, corruption and exploitation is a notion that makes Eschatology far more compelling for me because it truly does make it relevant. Scanning headlines on a daily basis to see how some misunderstood "prophecy" might be unfolding isn't relevant, let alone orthodox, but living and working within the understanding that God's working towards a goal of completing a restoration effort and we can work alongside him makes everything we do eschatological. It all matters.

Click to expand...

I'm a here and now guy myself. I see many ministries based solely on a eminent doom quickly coming on the very near horizon Seeing that preaching such causes such a dreary outlook an escape theory had to be invented. A near advent ( if you will) in which we are beamed up leaving our clothing neatly folded in a stack. and then Jesus coming back seven (count 'em, seven) years kinda flies in the face of no man knows the day or time. It also goes directly against the Parable of the wheat and tares. Were the Tares not burned before the wheat was gathered into the storehouse? I guess "the kingdom of heaven is like unto' was mistakenly spoken?

Today is what matters. It's the beginning of eternity.

This would be off topic if some did not hold to the rapture theology as a non-negotiable. I have been told by more than one pastor that not believing it was a salvation breaker. If those pastors just happen to be right, I guess I'll be busting hell wide open with the majority of Christendom.

Click to expand...

I am glad you two guys are here. You add such a lot to the discussion and I have to say I enjoyed reading your posts (shown in the quote above).

I sometimes discuss ideas with my parish priest and pastoral worker - usually over lunch and a glass of fine Merlot - on Mondays and occasionally also on Saturday mornings. This week was no exception.

I got to wondering about the amount of explanation folk produce for what is written in the bible and what is received through our church. So today my wondering took us to a discussion of the fatherhood of God and how we move from childhood dependence on our parents to an adult faith in God as heavenly father. We start with our parents as authority figures and security in a world of constant dangers and shifting values and then we move on to God as our security and as ultimate authority for all the matters for which we have no answers of our own. So, naturally your posts (quoted above) brought that discussion back to mind.

The gospels, and many other passages in scripture, have the somewhat wonderful quality of provoking introspection about what one is doing in life and where one aims to go. Biblical passages - probably because we invest them with so much religious and moral authority - are a very helpful mirror for looking at one's self, one's actions, one's identity, and one's ultimate goals. And these questions about eschatology bring to mind one's ultimate goals - are we in the here and now for the purpose of shaping our future or are we in the here and now for shaping who we are?

I am inclined to think we are here now to shape who we are and the future will always be mysterious till the day we die.

The gospels leave us with a message about here and now and who we are here and now more than they leave us with a message about what will be. There are promises and glimpses of the eschaton - some are cosmic and some are personal - and there is a mountain of advice and teaching about how to live our lives in a way that will be valuable for more than one moment. I reckon the least negotiable elements in the gospel are the elements about who we are and that the elements about where we will be in the future (distant or proximate) are definitely negotiable.

Cheers chaps, you both encourage me.

God bless.

MoreCoffee said:

I am glad you two guys are here. You add such a lot to the discussion and I have to say I enjoyed reading your posts (shown in the quote above).

I sometimes discuss ideas with my parish priest and pastoral worker - usually over lunch and a glass of fine Merlot - on Mondays and occasionally also on Saturday mornings. This week was no exception.

I got to wondering about the amount of explanation folk produce for what is written in the bible and what is received through our church. So today my wondering took us to a discussion of the fatherhood of God and how we move from childhood dependence on our parents to an adult faith in God as heavenly father. We start with our parents as authority figures and security in a world of constant dangers and shifting values and then we move on to God as our security and as ultimate authority for all the matters for which we have no answers of our own. So, naturally your posts (quoted above) brought that discussion back to mind.

The gospels, and many other passages in scripture, have the somewhat wonderful quality of provoking introspection about what one is doing in life and where one aims to go. Biblical passages - probably because we invest them with so much religious and moral authority - are a very helpful mirror for looking at one's self, one's actions, one's identity, and one's ultimate goals. And these questions about eschatology bring to mind one's ultimate goals - are we in the here and now for the purpose of shaping our future or are we in the here and now for shaping who we are?

I am inclined to think we are here now to shape who we are and the future will always be mysterious till the day we die.

The gospels leave us with a message about here and now and who we are here and now more than they leave us with a message about what will be. There are promises and glimpses of the eschaton - some are cosmic and some are personal - and there is a mountain of advice and teaching about how to live our lives in a way that will be valuable for more than one moment. I reckon the least negotiable elements in the gospel are the elements about who we are and that the elements about where we will be in the future (distant or proximate) are definitely negotiable.

Cheers chaps, you both encourage me.

God bless.

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How about a good size glass of Maker's Mark? Then we could even discuss the Pre-trib thing with many chuckles.

Rev Randy said:

How about a good size glass of Maker's Mark? Then we could even discuss the Pre-trib thing with many chuckles.

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Great idea. I have about 1/2 a bottle

MoreCoffee said:

Great idea. I have about 1/2 a bottle

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Well, I have the other half so we are in good shape.

MoreCoffee said:

are we in the here and now for the purpose of shaping our future or are we in the here and now for shaping who we are?

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I think this is the impetus for our faith, and unfortunately I think far too many prioritize it improperly. Really, the two are connected. Speaking in a strictly tangible sense, the choices we make about relating to our neighbor and the Earth for example, will have future implications.

Sadly, the evacuation model of Eschatology gets so engrained in the American Evangelical psyche that it permeates all areas of theology and praxis and it leads us to a place of ineffectiveness. Christ's redemption isn't merely immaterial, it's happening all around us. It's not just for people, but for the whole world. I think when we can grasp that, and when we can understand that we are the tools that can implement the healing transformation (such as reversing damage caused by pollution and exploiting Earth's natural resources for example) then that makes the Kingdom of Heaven far more expansive and vivid.

When we lock ourselves away in this narrow view that the Earth is like a corrupted computer program that's just going to be deleted, not only are we flat out wrong, but we're relegating ourselves to a corner of ineffectiveness.

I'd rather engage in and with the Kingdom of Heaven, by responding to the injustice that there are 2,000,000 AIDS orphans in Uganda, or that young boys and girls—even as young as four or five—are prostituted in Southeast Asia, or healing the damage and destruction caused by bulldozing miles of trees or strip mining. I think those are a few examples of really getting dirt under our fingernails to bring God's Kingdom forward into the present.

Fist and foremost get the non-negotiable "born anew" aboard so others can actually enter in the Kingdom of God, ie, not the replaced 'faith' (Trumpets) of today, but a true faith then let's get our pinkys dirty for the Truth. Why do it for a lie?

Rev Randy said:

Well, I have the other half so we are in good shape.

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Well, my dear brother, cheers!

PS: I had a couple of "Irish" coffees during the day on Monday; one around 11:00 AM while doing church accounts stuff and one after lunch at around 1:00 PM.

The discussions over lunch were very enjoyable.

God bless and keep you Rev Randy.

shturt678 said:

Fist and foremost get the non-negotiable "born anew" aboard so others can actually enter in the Kingdom of God, ie, not the replaced 'faith' (Trumpets) of today, but a true faith then let's get our pinkys dirty for the Truth. Why do it for a lie?

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Let's keep our pinkies clean!

Clean pinkies look so much prettier poking out from under one's cup of tea than do grubby ones

By the way, thumbs up for the new birth; without God's grace and Spirit we'd be having a very hard time in this world of ours.

God bless.

Cogent said:

I think this is the impetus for our faith, and unfortunately I think far too many prioritize it improperly. Really, the two are connected. Speaking in a strictly tangible sense, the choices we make about relating to our neighbor and the Earth for example, will have future implications.

Sadly, the evacuation model of Eschatology gets so engrained in the American Evangelical psyche that it permeates all areas of theology and praxis and it leads us to a place of ineffectiveness. Christ's redemption isn't merely immaterial, it's happening all around us. It's not just for people, but for the whole world. I think when we can grasp that, and when we can understand that we are the tools that can implement the healing transformation (such as reversing damage caused by pollution and exploiting Earth's natural resources for example) then that makes the Kingdom of Heaven far more expansive and vivid.

When we lock ourselves away in this narrow view that the Earth is like a corrupted computer program that's just going to be deleted, not only are we flat out wrong, but we're relegating ourselves to a corner of ineffectiveness.

I'd rather engage in and with the Kingdom of Heaven, by responding to the injustice that there are 2,000,000 AIDS orphans in Uganda, or that young boys and girls—even as young as four or five—are prostituted in Southeast Asia, or healing the damage and destruction caused by bulldozing miles of trees or strip mining. I think those are a few examples of really getting dirt under our fingernails to bring God's Kingdom forward into the present.

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The emphasis on tomorrow's world may be behind the check list tick some have for "saved" - it is like saying "I passed the entry exam, now what need is there for further study and class work? I've got this all sewn up, packaged, and posted!"

The gospel tells me to be pure of heart, meek, to hunger after righteousness, and to be humble; none of these things is easy or a finished work but I think I'd rather be on the path to obeying the call to follow Jesus in those things than I would on the path to getting my tribulation theory right.

Many blessings and graces to you brother Cogent; may God always guide and keep you on the difficult but true path that Jesus spoke of. Matthew 7:13-14.

MoreCoffee said:

The emphasis on tomorrow's world may be behind the check list tick some have for "saved" - it is like saying "I passed the entry exam, now what need is there for further study and class work? I've got this all sewn up, packaged, and posted!"

The gospel tells me to be pure of heart, meek, to hunger after righteousness, and to be humble; none of these things is easy or a finished work but I think I'd rather be on the path to obeying the call to follow Jesus in those things than I would on the path to getting my tribulation theory right.

Many blessings and graces to you brother Cogent; may God always guide and keep you on the difficult but true path that Jesus spoke of. Matthew 7:13-14.

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I have some Kona coffee ready for tomorrow morning.

MoreCoffee said:

I am glad you two guys are here. You add such a lot to the discussion and I have to say I enjoyed reading your posts (shown in the quote above).

I sometimes discuss ideas with my parish priest and pastoral worker - usually over lunch and a glass of fine Merlot - on Mondays and occasionally also on Saturday mornings. This week was no exception.

I got to wondering about the amount of explanation folk produce for what is written in the bible and what is received through our church. So today my wondering took us to a discussion of the fatherhood of God and how we move from childhood dependence on our parents to an adult faith in God as heavenly father. We start with our parents as authority figures and security in a world of constant dangers and shifting values and then we move on to God as our security and as ultimate authority for all the matters for which we have no answers of our own. So, naturally your posts (quoted above) brought that discussion back to mind.

The gospels, and many other passages in scripture, have the somewhat wonderful quality of provoking introspection about what one is doing in life and where one aims to go. Biblical passages - probably because we invest them with so much religious and moral authority - are a very helpful mirror for looking at one's self, one's actions, one's identity, and one's ultimate goals. And these questions about eschatology bring to mind one's ultimate goals - are we in the here and now for the purpose of shaping our future or are we in the here and now for shaping who we are?

I am inclined to think we are here now to shape who we are and the future will always be mysterious till the day we die.

The gospels leave us with a message about here and now and who we are here and now more than they leave us with a message about what will be. There are promises and glimpses of the eschaton - some are cosmic and some are personal - and there is a mountain of advice and teaching about how to live our lives in a way that will be valuable for more than one moment. I reckon the least negotiable elements in the gospel are the elements about who we are and that the elements about where we will be in the future (distant or proximate) are definitely negotiable.

Cheers chaps, you both encourage me.

God bless.

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I understand what you are saying ... I just think that our shaping into more mature Christians etc. does in essence affect our future. So I'd say both have relevance. The shaping of who we are in essence helps shapes our future.