What do you want to know about German history?

[USincognito]

The successors of the franconian King Charles the Great (better known as Charlemagne)...

Also as Karl Der Grosse.

What do you think about the Zollverein, and do you think it was an important factor in creating an eventual unified Germany?

As Germany unified under the Hohenzollerns, do you think it was to the future "Germany's" benefit or detriment that the ruling family was Prussian?

 

[Freodin]

Also as Karl Der Grosse.

Only if you speak German - the rest of the world seems to have settled on the french version. Well, both countries claim him as founding father, so both names are justified.

What do you think about the Zollverein, and do you think it was an important factor in creating an eventual unified Germany?

Definitly. Politically, it was impossible to unite Germany, against the opposition of jealous monarchs and the area-patriotism of the common population. It was only a small part of the "intellectual elite" that thought in terms of a "nation".

But economically, it was easy to teach to the "common men" that there should be a "common market". Every small farmer, who wanted to sell his goods in the neigboring town knew the problem of tolls and taxes.

As Germany unified under the Hohenzollerns, do you think it was to the future "Germany's" benefit or detriment that the ruling family was Prussian?

Both.
A unified Germany was only possible through Prussia. The "area-patriotism" I mentioned in the last answer was not limited to the commons. Wilhelm I was not happy to be pushed into the role of German Emperor. For the rest of his life, he saw himself as King of Prussia first, and German Emperor second.
So a unified Germany where Prussia had to submit to a petty prince of some small kingdom would have been impossible.

The detriment was not so much that the ruling family was Prussian - the famed Prussian militarism came on only later - but the members of the family. Wilhelm II wasn´t the ideal emperor for the political situation of his time. Had his father ruled longer, the situation would have been completely different.

 

[cartridge]

What do you think about the Zollverein, and do you think it was an important factor in creating an eventual unified Germany

I believe personally that economic unity was necessary for any unification politically. The Zollverein also gave Prussia the economic advantage necessary to be able to later defeat the Austrians and the French to achieve unification.

 

[Freodin]

Bump in case there are still people who are interested in German history.

Any questions?

 

[hemis]

What can you tell me about Germany's facination (a great one) with beer? Such as Oktoberfest.

 

[Freodin]

That´s quite simple.

In former times, when there was no clean water supply system, people had to come up with brewages that were safe to drink and to keep. Alcohol - even in small quantities - does provide this safety.

The most common brewage used for that case was wine - but grapes don´t grow very well in the most of the cold climate of Germany. Grapes were grown in all areas that were even marginally suitible for that purpose, but the results were , err, not very spectacular, and in all cases it wasn´t enough for the common people.
Beer provided an alternative.

So beer became the peoples drink No.1 in Germany.

The Oktoberfest is a much younger "tradition".

 

[applepowerpc]

I'm not sure how relevant this is to Germany, but: I've always held the opinion that the Huns were nowhere near the barbarians they've been portrayed to be. I want to know more about them, so I can back that up with qualitative information.

 

[wildthing]

What can you tell me about Germany's facination (a great one) with beer? Such as Oktoberfest.

Been to Oktoberfest I alwas thought it was put on for tourist. To see how much beer one tourist could possible hold before passing out. Been there did it, and got the beer glass to show for it.

 

[NiemandheißtBoshaftigkeit]

OK, I have been reading some books about the Celts recently and who knew that Germany was acctually the ancient homeland of the Celts (modern Welsh, Scottish, Irish, etc..)? So the 'Fatherland' is not acctually the historically geographical homeland of any Germanic Nation but a Celtic one. Also, the peoples with blonde hair and blue eyes mentioned in ancient texts in the area of modern Germany, France, Spain, and eastern Europe, were Celts. I still need to reasearch the Ostergoths, etc. but I wonder, if only the Celts had blonde hair and blue eyes, why did Hitler want them to be the 'perfect person'??? Was Hitler of Celtic ancestory or just an idiot? Did the first Scandanavian (viking, germanic, w/e) raiders have blonde hair and blue eyes?

 

[Freodin]

I'm not sure how relevant this is to Germany, but: I've always held the opinion that the Huns were nowhere near the barbarians they've been portrayed to be. I want to know more about them, so I can back that up with qualitative information.

Huns don´t have much - if anything - to do with Germany.

One of the most famous germanic sagas - the Nibelungen Saga - deals with the Burgundians and their war against the Huns - but the historcal background for that was half a millenium before "Germany" did exist.

Another connection: Emperor Wilhelm II told his troops to be like Huns when he sent them into the Chinese Boxer rebellion. He didn´t meant they should act like murderous barbarians, but harsh and without mercy against the evil unbelieving enemy.
The Allies used this speech in WW1 to paint the Germans as murderous barbarians - propaganda for the most part.


That is all about Huns and Germans. If you want to know more about Huns - start a new thread.

 

[Freodin]

Been to Oktoberfest I alwas thought it was put on for tourist. To see how much beer one tourist could possible hold before passing out. Been there did it, and got the beer glass to show for it.

The Oktoberfest was based on the festivity given on the event of the marriage of the Bavarian Crown-Prince Ludwig in 1810. 1811 the festivity was repeated and combined with an argricultural exhibition. Then it became traditional. It used to be a big party for the Bavarians - now it is a big party for the tourists.

 

[Freodin]

OK, I have been reading some books about the Celts recently and who knew that Germany was acctually the ancient homeland of the Celts (modern Welsh, Scottish, Irish, etc..)? So the 'Fatherland' is not acctually the historically geographical homeland of any Germanic Nation but a Celtic one. Also, the peoples with blonde hair and blue eyes mentioned in ancient texts in the area of modern Germany, France, Spain, and eastern Europe, were Celts. I still need to reasearch the Ostergoths, etc. but I wonder, if only the Celts had blonde hair and blue eyes, why did Hitler want them to be the 'perfect person'??? Was Hitler of Celtic ancestory or just an idiot? Did the first Scandanavian (viking, germanic, w/e) raiders have blonde hair and blue eyes?

The area of what is now Germany has always been a region of passing through. Celtic tribes lived there before the Germans did, but the Celts had in turn pushed away, assimilated or exterminated the previous inhabitants.
In fact, Celtic and Germanic culture and people were not that different from each other. Many of the Germanic tribes that inhabited Germany in Roman times did come from the Baltic or Scandinavian area. Others were just Celtic tribe who took on Germanic names and customs.

In regard to Hitlers faible for blue-eyed blondes: He (and the adherents of this certain type of germanic race mythology) were just idiots. There is a higher percentage of blond hair and blue eyes in germanic, scandinavian and celtic people, but this whole "Übermenschen" business was pure lunacy.
Aryans or Indogermans is not even a biological term, but a linguistical one.

 

[NiemandheißtBoshaftigkeit]

The area of what is now Germany has always been a region of passing through. Celtic tribes lived there before the Germans did, but the Celts had in turn pushed away, assimilated or exterminated the previous inhabitants.
In fact, Celtic and Germanic culture and people were not that different from each other. Many of the Germanic tribes that inhabited Germany in Roman times did come from the Baltic or Scandinavian area. Others were just Celtic tribe who took on Germanic names and customs.

In regard to Hitlers faible for blue-eyed blondes: He (and the adherents of this certain type of germanic race mythology) were just idiots. There is a higher percentage of blond hair and blue eyes in germanic, scandinavian and celtic people, but this whole "Übermenschen" business was pure lunacy.
Aryans or Indogermans is not even a biological term, but a linguistical one.

Yes, all Indo-european peoples are thought to have desended from the same peoples but I think the Celts were the first to inhabit the area that is currently east Germany.

I agree Hitler was an idiot but I do believe, from historical accounts that the Celts were basically a blue eyed blonde (the real blonde, none of that fake ****) haired. It was also mentioned they washed their hair in a lime and water solution to bleach their hair even blonder and then combed it back so it was spiked, kinda.

 

[Freodin]

Yes, all Indo-european peoples are thought to have desended from the same peoples but I think the Celts were the first to inhabit the area that is currently east Germany.

Not the first, but definitly before the scandinavian germans.

I agree Hitler was an idiot but I do believe, from historical accounts that the Celts were basically a blue eyed blonde (the real blonde, none of that fake ****) haired. It was also mentioned they washed their hair in a lime and water solution to bleach their hair even blonder and then combed it back so it was spiked, kinda.

The Celts weren´t a race of blue-eyed blondes, just as the Germans weren´t.
You have also to consider that "Celts" as well as "Germans" are and were not distictinve definitions. There are some - in parts major - cultural differences between these two groups - as would be expected from people who lived from the mediteranian south to the baltic north - but the distinction comes primarily from the Romans: if they lived east of the Rhine, they were Celts, if they lived west of it, they were Germans.

 

[NiemandheißtBoshaftigkeit]

Not the first, but definitly before the scandinavian germans.


The Celts weren´t a race of blue-eyed blondes, just as the Germans weren´t.
You have also to consider that "Celts" as well as "Germans" are and were not distictinve definitions. There are some - in parts major - cultural differences between these two groups - as would be expected from people who lived from the mediteranian south to the baltic north - but the distinction comes primarily from the Romans: if they lived east of the Rhine, they were Celts, if they lived west of it, they were Germans.

Have you heard of any evidence that suggest there was another peoples there before the Celts? I am asking seriously because I haven't.

The modern distinction of Celts and Germans comes from linguistics. Those who spoke a Celtic language were Celtic and those who spoke a Germanic language were Germanic. Sorry about my last post, I was referencing the Guals only and not all Celts in general. I can not find the quote concerning blue eyes again but there are many account of how they all had blonde hair and also accented that by bleching it in lime-water etc...

 

[Freodin]

Have you heard of any evidence that suggest there was another peoples there before the Celts? I am asking seriously because I haven't.

According to my sources, the Celts came from the western Urnfield-Culture, so these at last would be the direct precursors. Earliest references are from the 6th century BC. So every culture in the area of Bohemia and southern Germany before ca. 800 BC would not be "celtic" in that sense.
And further back, there were people living there before the Urn-people came.
I will look for further reference.

The modern distinction of Celts and Germans comes from linguistics. Those who spoke a Celtic language were Celtic and those who spoke a Germanic language were Germanic. Sorry about my last post, I was referencing the Guals only and not all Celts in general. I can not find the quote concerning blue eyes again but there are many account of how they all had blonde hair and also accented that by bleching it in lime-water etc...

Language is again not a racial distinction. Bother Germans and Celts spoke an indogerman language, and these languages did mix, split and develope. Any distiction along the lines of language must necessarily be arbitrary, more or less.

If there are account that all Celts (or Gauls) were blonde, I would think that was an exaggeration of the resepctive authors. They would have been mediteranians, where blond hair is rare. And the custom of bleeching the hair could be responsible for some of these "all blonde" sightings. Yes, it did exist. I remember a reference somewhere in a Roman source.

 

[hemis]

How similar are the Holy Roman Empire that once ruled over Germany and the newly formed EU, which now holds some authority over Germany?

 

[Freodin]

How similar are the Holy Roman Empire that once ruled over Germany and the newly formed EU, which now holds some authority over Germany?

The Holy Roman Empire did never "rule" over Germany.

The Holy Roman Empire was meant and seen as a necessary continuation of the Christian Roman Empire. According to some Bible interpretations, the Roman Empire would be the last of the great Empires in history - after it would come the End.

It was also seen as the political expression of Christendom: the Pope was the High Priest of Christendom, the spiritual ruler, and the Emperor was the secular ruler. In this view Charles the Great and Otto the Great were crowned.

It was through Otto the great that the Empire became a "German" empire. From his era, all future Roman Emperors would be Kings of Germany first.

So it were rather the German kings ruling the Holy Roman Empire, than vice versa.


The Holy Roman Empire was a spiritual union - wars were fought about the question who had the higher rank: Pope or Emperor, but in fact neither of the two had much authority over the rest of Europe.
The EU on the other hand is a political and economical union. It is not derived from a theological necessity, but from a hard-earned understanding that a divided Europe will not survive.

 

[ACougar]

1. When I make an atempt to study ancient German culture and civilization I almost always wind up reading Roman accounts of German tribes or about the Northern tribes. Can you direct me to any Studies of tribes such as the Suebi, Cherusci or even Alamanni that attempt to understand how these people lived and thought prior to thier exposure to the Roman Empire?

2. Can you recomend any good books, sites or documentaries that deal specificly with the social stress that Germanic and/or Celtic peoples endured with thier exposure to the Roman Empire and eventually Christianity?

Thanks!

 

[Freodin]

1. When I make an atempt to study ancient German culture and civilization I almost always wind up reading Roman accounts of German tribes or about the Northern tribes. Can you direct me to any Studies of tribes such as the Suebi, Cherusci or even Alamanni that attempt to understand how these people lived and thought prior to thier exposure to the Roman Empire?

2. Can you recomend any good books, sites or documentaries that deal specificly with the social stress that Germanic and/or Celtic peoples endured with thier exposure to the Roman Empire and eventually Christianity?

Thanks!

Sorry, I fear I can´t help you with that. None of the Germanic tribes left any written accounts, so any informations about their way of life have to be deduced from archeological finds. How they thought is lost to us.

I have to admit that I have never been very good at remembering books and authors. When I was still at university, all I had to do was visit the library and look in the shelfs I knew were relevant. There is a huge amount of special publications availiable from local research groups, but I could not name any article dealing with your question out of hand.

Another thing - they would all be in German. (I don´t know if that would be a problem.)

For example, you might visist the homepage of the organization of archeologists in Germany: www.landesarchaeologen.de
Perhaps you can find some info there, or mail them from some reference.