What do you want to know about German history?

[Freodin]

Good idea!
I might also answer, if I can.

Sadly, this part of the forum isn't very active. It wasn't always so, but that's just the way things go.

My last response here was over half a year old, and the thread was still on the first page.

But once in a while, someone will show up... mostly to ask either about the germanic tribes of antiquity, or the Nazis.
Just kidding... there are, as you can see, some very interesting questions.

Happy to see you chime in. The more, the merrier... and especially history can only profit from more people engaging!

 

[Red Gold]

But once in a while, someone will show up... mostly to ask either about the germanic tribes of antiquity, or the Nazis.
Just kidding... there are, as you can see, some very interesting questions.

As you said before:
There are lots of other things to be said about Germany than just always this monotonous "Nazi, Nazi, Nazi ...."

 

[Chesterton]

But once in a while, someone will show up... mostly to ask either about the germanic tribes of antiquity, or the Nazis.

Yeah I forgot to ask about that. What was up with those Nazis? I mean they were really snappy dressers and all, but some of their ideas, I don't know, they seem kinda racist.

No but seriously, IMO Germany's worst sin historically is the invention of techno "music". I once dated a girl who listened to techno. I think Germany owes reparations to my ears.

 

[Freodin]

Yeah I forgot to ask about that. What was up with those Nazis? I mean they were really snappy dressers and all, but some of their ideas, I don't know, they seem kinda racist.

No but seriously, IMO Germany's worst sin historically is the invention of techno "music". I once dated a girl who listened to techno. I think Germany owes reparations to my ears.

Hey, at least it's Kraftwerk.
It's another of these "cultural understanding" things, especially among Americans. Ask 100 of them about german music, and 99 of them will respond with "Rammstein".

Neither Kraftwerk or Rammstein is my kind of music. When it comes to German music, I (as I think is common for most people) like the styles of my youth, the 80's... and I enjoyed a lot of the more modern German pop bands of the early 2000s... "Wir sind Helden" or "Sportfreunde Stiller".

But even so, I still would prefer Kraftwerk or Rammstein over Karlheinz Stockhausen. No, don't search for him, if you still value your ears.

 

[Chesterton]

Hey, at least it's Kraftwerk.

Back in the days when FM radio wasn't commercialized, the Trans Europe Express album was very popular on the radio, at least in my city. They sounded a bit odd sandwiched between early AC/DC and Aerosmith, but it was very interesting music when you've been smoking the right kind of vegetation (or so I've heard.)

It's another of these "cultural understanding" things, especially among Americans. Ask 100 of them about german music, and 99 of them will respond with "Rammstein".

My age group would probably respond with the Scorpions.

But even so, I still would prefer Kraftwerk or Rammstein over Karlheinz Stockhausen. No, don't search for him, if you still value your ears.

I searched for Stockhausen. You are correct.

 

[Chesterton]

@Freodin I'm currently reading The Guns Of August. The author mentions the year "...1426 when Berlin was a clump of wooden huts."

This doesn't seem right to me. Even if exaggerated some, is she right?

 

[Red Gold]

There are lots of other things to be said about Germany than just always this monotonous "Nazi, Nazi, Nazi ...."

I would like to repeat my words.

 

[Chesterton]

I would like to repeat my words.

Why? I'm asking a question about the 15th century.

 

[Freodin]

@Freodin I'm currently reading The Guns Of August. The author mentions the year "...1426 when Berlin was a clump of wooden huts."

This doesn't seem right to me. Even if exaggerated some, is she right?

No, she isn't right. Or at least massively exaggerating.

Berlin (and it's sister city Coelln) were at least two centuries older, and had been established as trading centers at an important crossroad / river crossing from the start. There are records of guilds and churches from the 13th century, and both settlements had been give city status around that time.

It's true that it may have been mostly wooden buildings... both cities were almost completely destroyed in a series of fires at the end of the 14th century... but it was definitly more than "a clump of huts".

Tuchman is an excellent narrator, and she has a way to make history come alive. But she isn't always the most precise historian.

 

[Lukaris]

If Freodin is checking in:

What are the differences between Germans and Austrians?

 

[Red Gold]

What are the differences between Germans and Austrians?

Good question.
One might say: None.
Because: Austria has been a quite natural part of Germany for centuries.
Now Austria is a state of its own, but culture and language is still German.

 

[Freodin]

Good question indeed.
It's a bit complicated, and Red Gold has already given the short version.

The difference betweem Austrians and Germans today is nationality. Germans are citizens of the Federal Republic of Germany, Austrians of the Republic of Austria.
But both people share a long history, and culturally there are more similarities between southern Germans and Austrians than between Germans from North and South.

Nationality wasn't the major factor of the Holy Roman Empire, and that meant that different groups could drift away, especially when the only way to expand was into non-cultural-german areas.
That was the big topic when the question of "nation" finally reached the german states, back in the 19th century.
The two main rivals for dominance in any type of "German nation" were Austria and Prussia. Both had large non-german territories, but Austria much more so, its power was more dependent on them, and its interests. Austria with Hungary, the Balkan territories and the polish and ruthenian lands would have been a minor part of Germany. Austria with these lands would have changed the nature and focus of a german state.

So a seperation was almost inevitable. Austria couldn't renounce its status as a "Great Power", and Prussia could not accept such a rival in their zone of influence.

When Austria had finally lost all of it's imperial ambitions, after the Great War, there were major voices pleading for a reunification with Germany... but the Entente powers forbade that. These voices were not unopposed. When this reunification then happenend, it was more of a conquest, and even if there were many who applauded being called "heim in's Reich", there were more who weren't that happy to be ruled by "the Prussians".

After WW2, there were different plans for Germany and Austria. Had it been a bit different, maybe we would now discuss the question "What's the difference between Austria-Bavaria and Rhineland-Brandenburg?" or something like that.

 

[Lukaris]

So the English of Anglo Saxon descent have some kinship with the northern Germans on one side but virtually none with southern Germans and Austrians?

 

[Red Gold]

After WW2, there were different plans for Germany and Austria. Had it been a bit different, maybe we would now discuss the question "What's the difference between Austria-Bavaria and Rhineland-Brandenburg?" or something like that.

Exactly.
Or: "What is the difference between Germany and Bavaria?"

 

[Red Gold]

So the English of Anglo Saxon descent have some kinship with the northern Germans on one side but virtually none with southern Germans and Austrians?

"none" is a great exaggeration.

Of course the Anglo-Saxons are closer related to the Saxons of Lower Saxony.
As the names suggests.
But they are also related to the Franks and Swabians and Bavarians in Southern Germany.

 

[Red Gold]

Almost no-one today knows that the origin of our name was meant as an insult: "thiusc" was the way the common people, the lower classes spoke - in contrast to the latin speaking nobles.

I am not sure whether it was meant as an insult.
I think it was a neutral word to distinguish between the Latin of the clergy and the everyday language that the non-clergy spoke.

Most nobles also spoke "thiudisc".

 

[Lukaris]

"none" is a great exaggeration.

Of course the Anglo-Saxons are closer related to the Saxons of Lower Saxony.
As the names suggests.
But they are also related to the Franks and Swabians and Bavarians in Southern Germany.

I should have said, “less”; poor word choice.

 

[Lukaris]

I am American from the state of Pennsylvania and there is much German heritage in our state. The Moravians, Amish etc. are still prominent communities in our state. A major Pa. frontiersman named Conrad Weiser was German born and actually dealt honestly with the Indians but unfortunately could not change history. Count Zinzendorf preached to the Indians in my local area in the Wyoming Valley of Pa. Then there is the mistaken identity of the Pa. “Dutch” ( actually Deutsch, of course) German settlers. etc.

Conrad Weiser - Wikipedia

Nicolaus Zinzendorf - Wikipedia

Pennsylvania Dutch - Wikipedia

 

[Freodin]

So the English of Anglo Saxon descent have some kinship with the northern Germans on one side but virtually none with southern Germans and Austrians?

"Kinship" is very unspecific term in this regard.
Culture is a very maleable thing, and ethnicity just a bit less so. Connections between areas and the people who live there are only roughly guided by the general setting of history and geography.

Over thousand years of history, the diverging lines are of much more importance that some mystical "kinship" ages ago. It doesn't even take a thousand years for cultures to split, merge, reform, change. And it doesn't take continents to seperate cultures... a river, forest, border, ruler... can do the same for just some square kilometers.

 

[Red Gold]

It doesn't even take a thousand years for cultures to split, merge, reform, change. And it doesn't take continents to seperate cultures... a river, forest, border, ruler... can do the same for just some square kilometers.

So it is in the case of the former Grand Duchy of Baden and the Kingdom of Württemberg.
There is lots of "kinship" - but lots of seperation as well.